Howland Reed is the KotLT - Proof by Canon

[LynnS]

On 7/22/2021 at 2:46 AM, direpupy said:

And that's where the question about Howland wanting Bran in his head comes from, he has honor and pride and while i can imagine him having no problem using his own magic, i doubt he would want to cheat by having a "god" take over his body. Howland having magic would also mean he could block Bran. So for the whole takeover by Bran Benjen or Lyanna make more sence, even more so because there skillset is more suited to jousting. 

I don't think it's a case of blocking Bran but more a case of summoning Bran.  In the example of Hodor at the entrance to BR's cave; Bran doesn't decide to skinchange Hodor or take his body without permission.  Bran hears Hodor's cry for help and suddenly finds himself in Hodor's body.  Hodor has the ability to call Bran for help and receive it.  Here is the passage again:

Quote

A Dance with Dragons - Bran II

The last light had vanished from amongst the trees by then. Night had fallen. Coldhands was hacking and cutting at the circle of dead men that surrounded him. Summer was tearing at the one that he'd brought down, its face between his teeth. No one was paying any mind to Bran. He crawled a little higher, dragging his useless legs behind him. If I can reach that cave …

"Hoooodor" came a whimper, from somewhere down below.

And suddenly he was not Bran, the broken boy crawling through the snow, suddenly he was Hodor halfway down the hill, with the wight raking at his eyes. Roaring, he came lurching to his feet, throwing the thing violently aside. It went to one knee, began to rise again. Bran ripped Hodor's longsword from his belt. Deep inside he could hear poor Hodor whimpering still, but outside he was seven feet of fury with old iron in his hand. He raised the sword and brought it down upon the dead man, grunting as the blade sheared through wet wool and rusted mail and rotted leather, biting deep into the bones and flesh beneath. "HODOR!" he bellowed, and slashed again. This time he took the wight's head off at the neck, and for half a moment he exulted … until a pair of dead hands came groping blindly for his throat.

Bran is not even thinking of skinchanging Hodor but he hears him whimper and suddenly he is not Bran.

It brings up questions about the magic of the green men and if they can call a god to strengthen their arm and body.  They are the protectors of the gods and I wonder if this is one of the magics that Howland learned from them.

[mormont]

On 7/22/2021 at 6:19 AM, Crona said:

Both Meera and Jojen either do not know the identity or keeping the identity away from Bran. If it was Lyanna, what is the point of keeping the identity away from Bran?

If it was anyone but Lyanna there woul;d be no point of keeping the identify from Bran - particularly if it were Howland, because Bran could learn quite a lot from the story if it were Howland. He'd learn that power isn't always what he thinks it is, for a start, and that being true to the ideals of knighthood is more important than outward appearances or physical traits.

But Meera and Jojen are careful to ask whether Ned has ever told the story to his children, aren't they? And that makes total sense if the KotLT is Lyanna. Because in that case, the story is intimately tied to her fate, a subject Ned is clearly very closed about and which involves life and death secrets. Howland may have told his children about it but they were almost certainly sworn to secrecy and they don't know if the Stark kids know. Their questions about Ned telling the story make total sense if they think the Stark kids might know these things but need to be sure before telling the story.

[Tucu]

@LynnS@Wizz-The-Smith

I like how the "true knight"<->"tree knight" parallels one of my favourite threads: the "white shadows":

-Ghost, the white shadow that protects Jon and belongs to the Old Gods

-The KGs, the white shadows that protect the royal family. They have that weirwood table and copied their vows from the Night's Watch

-The WWs, the white shadows that only appear at night and might be tree knights: a night's watch.

[LynnS]

19 minutes ago, mormont said:

If it was anyone but Lyanna there woul;d be no point of keeping the identify from Bran - particularly if it were Howland, because Bran could learn quite a lot from the story if it were Howland. He'd learn that power isn't always what he thinks it is, for a start, and that being true to the ideals of knighthood is more important than outward appearances or physical traits.

But Meera and Jojen are careful to ask whether Ned has ever told the story to his children, aren't they? And that makes total sense if the KotLT is Lyanna. Because in that case, the story is intimately tied to her fate, a subject Ned is clearly very closed about and which involves life and death secrets. Howland may have told his children about it but they were almost certainly sworn to secrecy and they don't know if the Stark kids know. Their questions about Ned telling the story make total sense if they think the Stark kids might know these things but need to be sure before telling the story.

Hello Mormont!  This IS a surprise!   I think the problem for Meera and Jojen is that they don't agree on how much they should tell Bran about his involvement because he is only a boy.  I don't think it is about revealing that Lyanna was the tree knight.  Yes, there is more to that story which I suspect has more to do with her disappearance and the events that follow.  I also suspect that Bran's involvement as the tree knight unwittingly triggered those events.  We just don't know what happened between Rhaegar and Lyanna yet.  I'm sorry I don't think Lyanna horsemanship or tilting at rings gives her the upper hand over three adult men experienced in jousting. 

Thank you for your comment!  We don't hear enough from you on the forums.  

 

[LynnS]

2 minutes ago, Tucu said:

@LynnS@Wizz-The-Smith

I like how the "true knight"<->"tree knight" parallels one of my favourite threads: the "white shadows":

-Ghost, the white shadow that protects Jon and belongs to the Old Gods

-The KGs, the white shadows that protect the royal family. They have that weirwood table and copied their vows from the Night's Watch

-The WWs, the white shadows that only appear at night and might be tree knights: a night's watch.

I wonder if this happened as an adjunct to Torrhen Stark bending the knee.  If Aegon was given the inside scoop of some kind.

[mormont]

49 minutes ago, LynnS said:

I'm sorry I don't think Lyanna horsemanship or tilting at rings gives her the upper hand over three adult men experienced in jousting. 

This sort of argument falls victim to the problem that this is a story, though. GRRM knows a limited amount about subjects like jousting but a, he doesn't know everything and b, he is explicitly willing to ignore what he does know if it makes a better story. (For example, GRRM knows perfectly well that longswords became backup weapons at best once partial/full plate armour became a thing and that his knights should all have polearms but he ignores that because swords are more resonant symbolically, or to put it another way, swords are cool.)

Besides, the basic element of the story is that the mystery knight is an underdog who overcomes the odds. So it can be someone who shouldn't win, but does.

[LynnS]

25 minutes ago, mormont said:

Besides, the basic element of the story is that the mystery knight is an underdog who overcomes the odds. So it can be someone who shouldn't win, but does.

I agree and given a choice between Lynna and Howland; the underdog appears to be Howland in my eyes, since he has less knowledge of horses and jousting than Lyanna.  Howland overcoming the odds would be a reason for someone as proud as Howland to tell this story to his kids again and again.  It's a life lesson for them and the odds they will face in the world.

I don't know what Martin knows about medieval jousting.  I assume the basic elements are that you run at speed, break lances and take the the force of impact on the body somewhere.  Which may or may not unhorse the rider.  I'm not even sure I know what sort of shield would be used or how it is used.

[Tucu]

1 hour ago, LynnS said:

I wonder if this happened as an adjunct to Torrhen Stark bending the knee.  If Aegon was given the inside scoop of some kind.

All about the white worms infiltrating the realm :-)

Quote

Bloodraven is the root of all our woes, the white worm gnawing at the heart of the realm

 

[mormont]

47 minutes ago, LynnS said:

I agree and given a choice between Lynna and Howland; the underdog appears to be Howland in my eyes, since he has less knowledge of horses and jousting than Lyanna. 

Possibly, but the point of the stuff about Lyanna and horses is not to establish credibility but to give some pointers to the reader about who the KotLT might be. In much the same manner as you believe the greathelm points to Howland, in fact.

47 minutes ago, LynnS said:

Howland overcoming the odds would be a reason for someone as proud as Howland to tell this story to his kids again and again.  It's a life lesson for them and the odds they will face in the world.

Agreed, and it is for these very reasons that it would make no sense for Jojen and Meera not to say outright that Howland is the KotLT, if indeed Howland was the KotLT.

47 minutes ago, LynnS said:

I don't know what Martin knows about medieval jousting.  I assume the basic elements are that you run at speed, break lances and take the the force of impact on the body somewhere.  Which may or may not unhorse the rider.  I'm not even sure I know what sort of shield would be used or how it is used.

Depends what we mean by 'medieval' as that term covers a huge range, geographically and chronologically: plus ASOIAF borrows liberally from both medieval and early Renaissance period real-world history. But when it comes to jousting, as depicted in ASOIAF they seem to use standard 'heater' shields (itself an anachronistic term coined much later by historians).

[LynnS]

30 minutes ago, mormont said:

Possibly, but the point of the stuff about Lyanna and horses is not to establish credibility but to give some pointers to the reader about who the KotLT might be. In much the same manner as you believe the greathelm points to Howland, in fact.

I suppose I have problems with the pointers Martin gives because they are so scantily clad and without much context.  That leaves a lot of blank pages, in which the reader is invited to write their own story, to make any sense out of it,  I have reservations about Martin's reasons for doing so, what he is pointing us to and away from.  The greathelm stands out since it is in front of us in the story and these are usually for jousting and it appears in Meera's possessions.  We can argue that she plucked it out of the swamp somewhere if she could get down deep enough.  Why not just bring a regular cooking pot.  

30 minutes ago, mormont said:

Agreed, and it is for these very reasons that it would make no sense for Jojen and Meera not to say outright that Howland is the KotLT, if indeed Howland was the KotLT.

Meera tells Bran that it's the little crannogman.  Bran himself is pretty emphatic that this is true although, I'm not sure how he would know that outside of wishful thinking.  It's Jojen who is wavering.  Consider for a moment, what impact the knowledge of his future would have on Bran.  In the mind of an 8 year old boy, he would have access to magic and all his wishes would come true.  What would he do with it?

Quote

A Storm of Swords - Bran II

"Oh." Bran thought about the tale awhile. "That was a good story. But it should have been the three bad knights who hurt him, not their squires. Then the little crannogman could have killed them all. The part about the ransoms was stupid. And the mystery knight should win the tourney, defeating every challenger, and name the wolf maid the queen of love and beauty."

But why is Jojen wavering?  Does this have something to do with his own future?

[direpupy]

3 hours ago, LynnS said:

I don't think it's a case of blocking Bran but more a case of summoning Bran.  In the example of Hodor at the entrance to BR's cave; Bran doesn't decide to skinchange Hodor or take his body without permission.  Bran hears Hodor's cry for help and suddenly finds himself in Hodor's body.  Hodor has the ability to call Bran for help and receive it.  Here is the passage again:

Bran is not even thinking of skinchanging Hodor but he hears him whimper and suddenly he is not Bran.

It brings up questions about the magic of the green men and if they can call a god to strengthen their arm and body.  They are the protectors of the gods and I wonder if this is one of the magics that Howland learned from them.

I'm not sure i would read that as a summoning. The way i read that is that Bran's life is in danger, he is trying desperatly to crawl away and while concentrating really hard on that he suddenly hears Hodor and subconsieusly shift his mind and concentration to Hodor and that is why he enters Hodor so suddenly. This becomes really clear when you read the entire sequense and not just the part where he skinchanges into Hodor.

So i am not convinced at all that this answers my question.

A Dance with Dragons - Bran II

That was when his shout became a scream. Bran filled a fist with snow and threw it, but the wight did not so much as blink. A black hand fumbled at his face, another at his belly. Its fingers felt like iron. He's going to pull my guts out.
But suddenly Summer was between them. Bran glimpsed skin tear like cheap cloth, heard the splintering of bone. He saw a hand and wrist rip loose, pale fingers wriggling, the sleeve faded black roughspun. Black, he thought, he's wearing black, he was one of the Watch. Summer flung the arm aside, twisted, and sank his teeth into the dead man's neck under the chin. When the big grey wolf wrenched free, he took most of the creature's throat out in an explosion of pale rotten meat.
The severed hand was still moving. Bran rolled away from it. On his belly, clawing at the snow, he glimpsed the trees above, pale and snow-cloaked, the orange glow between.Fifty yards. If he could drag himself fifty yards, they could not get him. Damp seeped through his gloves as he clutched at roots and rocks, crawling toward the light. A little farther, just a little farther. Then you can rest beside the fire.
The last light had vanished from amongst the trees by then. Night had fallen. Coldhands was hacking and cutting at the circle of dead men that surrounded him. Summer was tearing at the one that he'd brought down, its face between his teeth. No one was paying any mind to Bran. He crawled a little higher, dragging his useless legs behind him. If I can reach that cave …
"Hoooodor" came a whimper, from somewhere down below. And suddenly he was not Bran, the broken boy crawling through the snow, suddenly he was Hodor halfway down the hill

[LynnS]

2 minutes ago, direpupy said:

So i am not convinced at all that this answers my question.

Oh I wasn't attempting to exclude information.  The passage you quote serves to show how desperate the situation became.  I still see it as not typical of these sort of interactions with Hodor, including Bran's own internal experience.  I can see the green men interacting with the gods in this way as their protectors.  I think this what Martin is showing us.  That there is a different sort of magic at play.    

[mormont]

53 minutes ago, LynnS said:

I suppose I have problems with the pointers Martin gives because they are so scantily clad and without much context.

Yes, but this entire thread is built on what you believe to be just such a pointer.

[LynnS]

8 minutes ago, mormont said:

Yes, but this entire thread is built on what you believe to be just such a pointer.

Perhaps, but I think it's a strong pointer that traces a piece of equipment from the tourney into Meera's hands and it's simple.  What is difficult is explaining why and how Howland is the tree knight over Lyanna.

[Crona]

7 hours ago, mormont said:

If it was anyone but Lyanna there woul;d be no point of keeping the identify from Bran - particularly if it were Howland, because Bran could learn quite a lot from the story if it were Howland. He'd learn that power isn't always what he thinks it is, for a start, and that being true to the ideals of knighthood is more important than outward appearances or physical traits.

But Meera and Jojen are careful to ask whether Ned has ever told the story to his children, aren't they? And that makes total sense if the KotLT is Lyanna. Because in that case, the story is intimately tied to her fate, a subject Ned is clearly very closed about and which involves life and death secrets. Howland may have told his children about it but they were almost certainly sworn to secrecy and they don't know if the Stark kids know. Their questions about Ned telling the story make total sense if they think the Stark kids might know these things but need to be sure before telling the story.

 The story that is told to Bran they are deliberately holding the identity away from Bran. Why? Something that is sworn to secrecy has to cause issues if it was known.  If it was Lyanna why not tell him? What issue would arise with Bran or anyone that is alive if they knew Lyanna was the mystery knight. I can’t think of any.   I don’t know why Howland would keep the identity away either if it was Lyanna. It was already pretty well known that she was a good rider and had a bit of wildness to her. I can’t see the reason Ned would swore him to secrecy over this. 

Meera and Jojen may be wondering what version was told to Bran or if he knows at all. Think of Ned, how he is keeping Jon’s mother identity away if Jon or anyone knows, he will be in danger. The same thing applies, if Bran or anyone knew the extent of his power, would he change things that will affect the timeline?  Perhaps he would not like what happened in the past and wants to change things only to make it worse. Perhaps if he finds out about his powers too early maybe he would go crazy. Bran has to come to his understanding of his powers and find out on his own.

[mormont]

7 minutes ago, Crona said:

If it was Lyanna why not tell him?

Seriously? You can't think of any reason why Ned didn't tell the kids this story?

Well, even if you can't: he clearly didn't tell them, he clearly had a reason and there is no reason not to tell them if it's Howland. It can't be 'Bran's powers' because Ned has no idea Bran has any. It can't be to protect Howland because from what?

And critically, Ned doesn't even tell them the tale while withholding the identity of the mystery knight. Why? Well... we know that he avoids talking about certain subjects. Subjects that touch on Jon's parentage, in fact. Subjects like... how Jon's parents met?

[LynnS]

3 minutes ago, mormont said:

Seriously? You can't think of any reason why Ned didn't tell the kids this story?

OK, Crona gets points for bravery.  Going up against RLJ and the Lord Commander takes guts.  You're from Scotland, you know that.

Rock the bagpipe! Scotland the Brave /We will rock you @ Switzerland - YouTube

 

[Crona]

18 minutes ago, mormont said:

Seriously? You can't think of any reason why Ned didn't tell the kids this story?

Well, even if you can't: he clearly didn't tell them, he clearly had a reason and there is no reason not to tell them if it's Howland. It can't be 'Bran's powers' because Ned has no idea Bran has any. It can't be to protect Howland because from what?

And critically, Ned doesn't even tell them the tale while withholding the identity of the mystery knight. Why? Well... we know that he avoids talking about certain subjects. Subjects that touch on Jon's parentage, in fact. Subjects like... how Jon's parents met?

Did I say Ned? I said HOWLAND, who did tell his kids, why would he conceal the identity? I only said there is no reason for Ned to swear Howland to secrecy over this.

Meera and Jojen seem to know the true identity as in it was a combo of Howland and Bran. They were surprised Ned did not tell Bran because it would have seemed to be Howland. It has nothing to do with Neds knowledge of Bran’s powers.

it’s already well known that Rhaegar crowned Lyanna and ran off with her before this event. In fact it doesn’t even state Rhaegar finds the mystery knight. It was the day after the first day of the tourney that Rhaegar went to look for the knight and all he found was a shield.  The knight could have left the same night.

[HoodedCrow]

OMG, did Bran kill Arthur Dayne?( as Howland)

[Crona]

6 minutes ago, HoodedCrow said:

OMG, did Bran kill Arthur Dayne?( as Howland)

You know what, if Ned was killed by Arthur, Bran would not be alive. So maybe it was. Lol