Jump to content

Howland Reed is the KotLT - Proof by Canon


LynnS

Recommended Posts

1 hour ago, direpupy said:

I have to say that i just do not read that in there at all, for me it is a sign of the whole "magic is a blade without a hilt" thing, its an accident and it was not supposed to happen. Warging a human is considered an abomination under wargs as is made clear in the prologue POV of Varamyr Sixskins in aDwD, so i doubt it is something that anyone would want or actively seek. Much less a way to communicate.

Yes and you can see why this is taboo in Varamyr's case since there isn't a compassionate bone in his body and he will steal another's given the need and opportunity.  Bran isn't Varamyr and Hodor and Bran love each other.  Bran wargs Hodor out of necessity to save their lives ay Queenscrown and later to explore the caves.

When I first read that passage, it seemed to me that Hodor was warging Bran, not the other way around.  We know that it's the direwolf that initially establishes the bond and controls the wolf dreams.  Until the warg opens their 3rd eye and can do it at will.  Jon has reached a point where he can feel Ghosts's hunger pains, his mouth salivates.  This is something he experiences on sight rather than by skinchanging.  Bran has such a deep bond with Hodor that he is Hodor's interpreter.  Bran knows what Hodor thinks and feels.

The question for me becomes: has the bond between Bran and Hodor become so strong that warging is no longer a one way street between them.  Can Hodor initiate the warg bond between them in dire circumstances?

Which raises questions about Howland and the green men and what magic they employ in the defense of the GSeers. Do they also have a similar bond and can they 'call on" the gods to strengthen their arm?      

Link to comment
Share on other sites

41 minutes ago, LynnS said:

Yes and you can see why this is taboo in Varamyr's case since there isn't a compassionate bone in his body and he will steal another's given the need and opportunity.  Bran isn't Varamyr and Hodor and Bran love each other.  Bran wargs Hodor out of necessity to save their lives ay Queenscrown and later to explore the caves.

When I first read that passage, it seemed to me that Hodor was warging Bran, not the other way around.  We know that it's the direwolf that initially establishes the bond and controls the wolf dreams.  Until the warg opens their 3rd eye and can do it at will.  Jon has reached a point where he can feel Ghosts's hunger pains, his mouth salivates.  This is something he experiences on sight rather than by skinchanging.  Bran has such a deep bond with Hodor that he is Hodor's interpreter.  Bran knows what Hodor thinks and feels.

The question for me becomes: has the bond between Bran and Hodor become so strong that warging is no longer a one way street between them.  Can Hodor initiate the warg bond between them in dire circumstances?

Which raises questions about Howland and the green men and what magic they employ in the defense of the GSeers. Do they also have a similar bond and can they 'call on" the gods to strengthen their arm?      

Its not just Varamyr, its taboo period and that taboo has to come from somewhere, the most likely source being the green men. so i disagree with you here, for me it is clear that this is not something anybody would actively seek or want.

There is also the fact that Hodor still does not like being warged as becomes clear from the first quote below, so your theory of the deep bond of love goes right out the door there, its just not the case. Bran forces himself on Hodor and did so in the fight against the wights as well, he was concentrating and then his attention was drawn to Hodor so he slipped right into Hodor's mind. And whats more Bran knows that what he is doing is wrong see the second quote. At the end of the first quote he even apologizes to Hodor for what he is doing.

A Dance with Dragons - Bran III
Bran remembered a time when no one could climb as good as him, not even Robb or Jon. Part of him wanted to shout at them for leaving him, and another part wanted to cry. He was almost a man grown, though, so he said nothing. But after they were gone, he slipped inside Hodor's skin and followed them.
The big stableboy no longer fought him as he had the first time, back in the lake tower during the storm. Like a dog who has had all the fight whipped out of him, Hodor would curl up and hide whenever Bran reached out for him. His hiding place was somewhere deep within him, a pit where not even Bran could touch him. No one wants to hurt you, Hodor, he said silently, to the child-man whose flesh he'd taken. I just want to be strong again for a while. I'll give it back, the way I always do.

A Dance with Dragons - Bran III

Under the hill, Jojen brooded, Meera fretted, and Hodor wandered through dark tunnels with a sword in his right hand and a torch in his left. Or was it Bran wandering? No one must ever know.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, direpupy said:

Its not just Varamyr, its taboo period and that taboo has to come from somewhere, the most likely source being the green men. so i disagree with you here, for me it is clear that this is not something anybody would actively seek or want.

OK I will have to settle for the fact that you only interpret this in it's strictest form as it applies to Varamyr and | can't convince you that something else is happening between Hodor and Bran.   We'll have to disagree.

What you are saying is that these are the rules and Bran should stick to them.  Except that he's not sticking to them.  Also that Hodor wouldn't allow Bran to take his body.  Except in this case it looks like he did allow it and actively asks for Bran's help.  Possibly because he loves Bran and trusts him to give his body back to him.  This may be the only way Hodor himself can save Bran.  What we see is that together they are unstoppable.  Hodor may become less fearful over time.

The sin is in forcefully taking a body and keeping it.  That's not what Bran is doing.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I agree that Bran is taking Hodor by force and that it scares the hell out of Hodor every time. He deals with it by retreating "somewhere deep" to hide. Bran is taking advantage of Hodor and being dismissive about it, because he's a child and doesn't fully understand that what he is doing is wrong. Hodor doesn't fight, because he's mentally challenged, and doesn't believe that he can refuse his master.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Checking back through the books, it does seem that Bran has been told something about Lyanna probably as instruction by Luwin:

Quote

A Game of Thrones - Bran VII

"Do you recall your history, Bran?" the maester said as they walked. "Tell Osha who they were and what they did, if you can."

He looked at the passing faces and the tales came back to him. The maester had told him the stories, and Old Nan had made them come alive. "That one is Jon Stark. When the sea raiders landed in the east, he drove them out and built the castle at White Harbor. His son was Rickard Stark, not my father's father but another Rickard, he took the Neck away from the Marsh King and married his daughter. Theon Stark's the real thin one with the long hair and the skinny beard. They called him the 'Hungry Wolf,' because he was always at war. That's a Brandon, the tall one with the dreamy face, he was Brandon the Shipwright, because he loved the sea. His tomb is empty. He tried to sail west across the Sunset Sea and was never seen again. His son was Brandon the Burner, because he put the torch to all his father's ships in grief. There's Rodrik Stark, who won Bear Island in a wrestling match and gave it to the Mormonts. And that's Torrhen Stark, the King Who Knelt. He was the last King in the North and the first Lord of Winterfell, after he yielded to Aegon the Conqueror. Oh, there, he's Cregan Stark. He fought with Prince Aemon once, and the Dragonknight said he'd never faced a finer swordsman." They were almost at the end now, and Bran felt a sadness creeping over him. "And there's my grandfather, Lord Rickard, who was beheaded by Mad King Aerys. His daughter Lyanna and his son Brandon are in the tombs beside him. Not me, another Brandon, my father's brother. They're not supposed to have statues, that's only for the lords and the kings, but my father loved them so much he had them done."

"The maid's a fair one," Osha said.

"Robert was betrothed to marry her, but Prince Rhaegar carried her off and raped her," Bran explained. "Robert fought a war to win her back. He killed Rhaegar on the Trident with his hammer, but Lyanna died and he never got her back at all."

"A sad tale," said Osha, "but those empty holes are sadder."

So this is family history and most likely the accepted story throughout the north as well.  This may even be the story that Meera and Jojen have been told.  The story that Rhaegar fell upon Lyanna ten leagues for Harrenhall may have truths or half-truths attached to it.  We don't really have much context except that there must have been a witness for Hoster Tully and Brandon to hear about it.

Ned says that it was the wolf blood that brought Brandon to his end.  That the wolf blood and willfulness brought Lyanna to her end.

When he says wold blood, I think he means they had a temper and reacted in anger to their detriment,  But what does Ned mean by Lyanna's willfulness?  I think we can look to Arya for hints about willfulness.  It's when Ned finds her with needle that he says she reminds him of Lyanna.  At first he is dubious about the sword but decides that she should have training.  Arya doesn't want to be a lady or get married.  She emulates her brothers and is a bit wild and unkempt and is more interested in swordplay than sewing.

Lyanna may have been cut from the same cloth having no mother or sisters to turn her into a lady.  She is more interested in riding and swordplay.  Rickard may have stricter than Eddard in indulging these fantasies and as Lyanna comes closer to her own wedding; he must have applied pressure for Lyanna to be a lady and give up the sword practice.  

Arya goes off with Mycah for some swordplay.  Did Lyanna do the same and is this when Rhaegar fell upon her? Is this why Ned allows Arya to be trained with a sword?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

9 hours ago, mormont said:

There's no such text, of course. But we are told that Rhaegar was tasked with finding the KotLT: we know that Aerys wanted to see the KotLT punished because of his growing paranoia: we know that Rhaegar was at the stage where he was willing to take steps to address the problems caused by that paranoia: we know that Rhaegar rarely failed at anything he set his mind to: and we know that Rhaegar gave Lyanna public recognition after the KotLT mysteriously disappears without trace.

Good enough for me. YMMV.

If one knew of that bullying incident, of course. The KotLT makes clear that the knights' squires are guilty of unchivalrous behaviour, but there's no indication that anyone but the squires, Lyanna and Howland witnessed the incident, or that anyone but those five, Ned and Brandon knew of it.

 

Ok so Rhaegar tasked with finding the KOLT doesn’t mean he found the knight. So you saying that he found the knight then saying it was Lyanna is all your own head cannon and not supported by the text. Aerys being paranoid does not mean he found the KOLT. There are a couple of things Rhaegar had set his mind to but didn’t accomplish in fact this tourney was an example of. No point of arguing since there we have two different interpretations.

And i believe Lyanna had stated the squires were bullying her fathers bannerman. I am sure just like those squires, there were other people around that may have heard her. Or at least traced back who the squires were bullying. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

58 minutes ago, Crona said:

Ok so Rhaegar tasked with finding the KOLT doesn’t mean he found the knight. So you saying that he found the found the knight then saying it was Lyanna is all your own head cannon and not supported by the text. Aerys being paranoid does not mean he found the KOLT. There are a couple of things Rhaegar had set his mind to but didn’t accomplish in fact this tourney was an example of. No point of arguing since there we have two different interpretations.

And i believe Lyanna had stated the squires were bullying her fathers bannerman. I am sure just like those squires, there were other people around that may have heard her. Or at least traced back who the squires were bullying. 

Well, that's two of us.  :D 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

5 hours ago, LynnS said:

OK I will have to settle for the fact that you only interpret this in it's strictest form as it applies to Varamyr and | can't convince you that something else is happening between Hodor and Bran.   We'll have to disagree.

What you are saying is that these are the rules and Bran should stick to them.  Except that he's not sticking to them.  Also that Hodor wouldn't allow Bran to take his body.  Except in this case it looks like he did allow it and actively asks for Bran's help.  Possibly because he loves Bran and trusts him to give his body back to him.  This may be the only way Hodor himself can save Bran.  What we see is that together they are unstoppable.  Hodor may become less fearful over time.

The sin is in forcefully taking a body and keeping it.  That's not what Bran is doing.

 

No this does not apply only to Varamyr we learn this an abomination from Varamyr being taught that it is by Haggon, it does not apply to just one person but to all Wargs.

And Hodor did not allow Bran to take his body nor did he ask him, there is no indication in any of the text's from the books that this is the case.

The reason for Bran taking over so easily is because he did it before. Once you broke someone like Bran did Hodor at Queenscrown they can no longer resist.

A Storm of Swords - Jon X
The skinchanger was grey-faced, round-shouldered, and bald, a mouse of a man with a wolfling's eyes. "Once a horse is broken to the saddle, any man can mount him," he said in a soft voice. "Once a beast's been joined to a man, any skinchanger can slip inside and ride him. Orell was withering inside his feathers, so I took the eagle for my own.

And bran is most certainly forcing himself on Hodor why else would he apologize to Hodor and assure him he will give the body back, why else would Hodor retreat in fear to the deepest part of his mind where Bran can not reach him.

I realize that this has dire implications on your idea of Bran taking over Howland but that does not make it any less true.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

4 hours ago, Crona said:

Ok so Rhaegar tasked with finding the KOLT doesn’t mean he found the knight. So you saying that he found the knight then saying it was Lyanna is all your own head cannon and not supported by the text.

That would be one way to describe the theory, I suppose. Another way would be to say it's a theory that has been debated for (at this point) well over a decade and is, next to R+L=J, one of the most widely supported theories in ASOIAF scholarship and discussion. That doesn't make it correct, of course. But certainly many people believe it is well supported by the text.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

27 minutes ago, mormont said:

That would be one way to describe the theory, I suppose. Another way would be to say it's a theory that has been debated for (at this point) well over a decade and is, next to R+L=J, one of the most widely supported theories in ASOIAF scholarship and discussion. That doesn't make it correct, of course. But certainly many people believe it is well supported by the text.

Actually RLJ is supported by the text heavily.  That IMO is a theory.  Lyanna being KOTL is not supported heavily by the text on the other hand. RLJ does not need Lyanna to be KOLT to be true 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

12 hours ago, mormont said:

I agree, obviously, but that's not inconsistent with the KotLT being an underdog - in fact it's complementary, I think. The KotLT isn't a vision of chivalry in appearance but he defeats the knights nonetheless because he has virtue on his side. That 'he' is actually a woman only makes the story more powerful and resonant thematically: look at how many threads of the wider story are about gender and power.

The problem with considering this an "underdog" story is that you are projecting your own biases into the story.  The story itself does not reveal who the Mystery Knight is.  If it did reveal that the mystery knight is either Howland or Lyanna, then maybe you could construe it as an underdog winning the day.

But the story isn't set up that way.  The story tells of three squires acting monstrously, and their three knights that apparently condoned such behavior.  Then Howland prays to the Old gods and a mystery champion with a booming voice arrives to put the knights in their place, and to teach all the assembled knights what true honor means.  As far as the listener knows, the Mystery Knight's purpose may very well be to show the knights that there is always someone more powerful.  So treat those "weaker" than you with honor.

In a way it's somewhat similar to the tale of the Green Knight of Authurian legend.  A mystery Knight with magical property shows up to test the honor and the mettle of King Arthur's Knights.

ETA: I think the real importance of the tale lies in the fact that Bran isn't some "underdog".  In fact he's probably set to be one of the most powerful telepaths ever to enter the Weirnet.  The question is does Bran get the meaning of the tale?  That if he does become this powerful, will he use his powers for vengeance (his gut reaction is that the three knights should die) or does he use his power not for retribution for it's own sake, but to protect those in need of his protection.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 7/24/2021 at 10:24 PM, LynnS said:

The word play between throne and thorn seems to point to Aerys, someone we know to be cruel, with nails so overgown, they are described as claws. and whose presence overshadows the tournament.  I think awarding the crown to Lyanna was his decision and Rhaegar didn't have a choice.

Probably the biggest source of inspiration for the Harrenhal tourney is the tourney of Love and Beauty in Ivanhoe.  Everything is just jumbled up a bit.  And in Ivanhoe, the King Prince strongly and loudly urged the winner of the tourney (in this case a Mystery Knight, who also chose a tree as his sigil) to crown a certain noblewoman in order to curry favor with her family.  

So the idea of Aerys urging Rhaegar to crown Lyanna, perhaps for a political purpose is an interesting one, and one that would play well off of the Ivanhoe tourney.  

The thing that gives me pause, though, is the Worldbook’s entry, which specifically notes that Aerys did not seem very happy with Rhaegar winning the tourney.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

38 minutes ago, Frey family reunion said:

The thing that gives me pause, though, is the Worldbook’s entry, which specifically notes that Aerys did not seem very happy with Rhaegar winning the tourney.

My impression is that Aerys is suspicious of Rhaegar's motivations.  If Rhaegar is attempting to shore up support and form alliances for his own purposes; Aerys wouldn't be happy with Rhaegar if he wins the tourney.  I think Rhaegar would have crowned Elia but Aerys undermines him and his alliances by ordering him to crown Lyanna instead.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

45 minutes ago, LynnS said:

My impression is that Aerys is suspicious of Rhaegar's motivations.  If Rhaegar is attempting to shore up support and form alliances for his own purposes; Aerys wouldn't be happy with Rhaegar if he wins the tourney.  I think Rhaegar would have crowned Elia but Aerys undermines him and his alliances by ordering him to crown Lyanna instead.

I feel like the sequence of events from the tourney at Harrenhal onwards makes such a situation seem unlikely. If the crowing was the only thing that happened, maybe Aerys would have ordered it to hurt Rheagar's alliance's, but him "kidnapping" her suggest to me otherwise. 

Either A.) Rhaegar gifted the crown to Lyanna because he "Saw her beauty" -however he did that- and later ran off with her because there was a mutual or one sided attraction; later saying her name as he died.

Or B.) Aerys ordered the crowing to hurt Rheagar's relationship with the other lords (even though this could have backfired and actually endeared the Starks more to Rhaegar cause if already part of the scheme),  and Rhaegar later kidnaps this same girl unrelatedly, to hurt his father or from his own attraction from her.

B seems unlikely based on what we have heard others say of Rhaegar's character (or at least those who knew him best), While A seems to me a more cut and clean sequence motivated by love/lust.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Targaryeninkingslanding said:

I feel like the sequence of events from the tourney at Harrenhal onwards makes such a situation seem unlikely. If the crowing was the only thing that happened, maybe Aerys would have ordered it to hurt Rheagar's alliance's, but him "kidnapping" her suggest to me otherwise. 

I'm not really sure what's going on with the kidnapping story or why Rhaegar was travelling in the area seemingly covertly.  Or why both Brandon and Lyanna were in the same area.  But I think this is something that Ned believes to be true.  And there seems to have been a witness to the "kidnapping", because both Hoster Tully and Brandon receive news of it.   I don't see Rhaegar as the type to kidnap and rape someone.  Ned never displays any feelings of animosity towards Rhaegar.  There might be some truths or half truths to the story and of course we can't question the witness or know who it is.  I'm not getting a clear picture of what happened.  I don't want to do is jump to conclusions about it.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

6 minutes ago, LynnS said:

I'm not really sure what's going on with the kidnapping story or why Rhaegar was travelling in the area seemingly covertly.  Or why both Brandon and Lyanna were in the same area.  But I think this is something that Ned believes to be true.  And there seems to have been a witness to the "kidnapping", because both Hoster Tully and Brandon receive news of it.   I don't see Rhaegar as the type to kidnap and rape someone.  Ned never displays any feelings of animosity towards Rhaegar.  There might be some truths or half truths to the story and of course we can't question the witness or know who it is.  I'm not getting a clear picture of what happened.

no clue as to the first. as to the second, Brandon was on his way to wed Cat, so maybe Lyanna was in the area to attend the wedding. moving by road makes for rare opportunity to act.

as for the kidnapping, I interpreted it as stealing the girl in the wilding fashion- to which women like Ygritt don't seem entirely opposed to the concept, similar to bael the bard. I think that at least inspired the aesthetic of the "kidnapping." 

the crown of love and beauty was made of blue winter roses, just as bael left for his stolen stark.

Who knows what song obsessed Rhaegar was thinking though.

Based on the time the kidnapping happen, and the approximate age of Aegon, Elia was probably only recently done with birth and newly made infertile/barren. that at the very least may help account for the timing of Rhaegar's theft.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Just now, Targaryeninkingslanding said:

Based on the time the kidnapping happen, and the approximate age of Aegon, Elia was probably only recently done with birth and newly made infertile/barren. that at the very least may help account for the timing of Rhaegar's theft.

Could be.  I just really have no idea at this point.  I have a pretty strong feeling that Rhaegar was not a rapist. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

×
×
  • Create New...