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LynnS

Howland Reed is the KotLT - Proof by Canon

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I have difficulty believing that skinchanging, glamour, or other magical actions were utilized by the KotLT.  The Stark children's abilities appear to have been given or activated by the arrival of the wolf pus.  There is no indication of Starks having it before.  Certainly Ned didn't have such abilities, and Sansa's have been retarded by the loss of her wolf.

Lyanna has been described by those who knew her as a very accomplished rider, in terms that approach awe at her ability.  I have no reason to doubt that she could defeat three knights who may have gotten lucky in their opponents.  Given that she is using cast-off armor, she may have expected otherwise, although I doubt anyone would have helped a girl get armor in any event.  

@LynnS, while you may not like the connection to Rhaegar and the RLJ theory, I think there is such a connection.  Rhaegar appears to have become interested in Lyanna at that point,, and I can't think of any other reason for him to have named her Queen of Love and Beauty.  It certainly wasn't political, as it caused a huge, predictable scandal.  Whether his subsequent actions involved romance I have no idea and probably never will.

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Posted (edited)

When Jaime is asked about jousting, he is most certainly thinking about normal conditions where the opponent is an adult male usually a trained knight where the other factors balance out and it comes down to horsemanship.  

He is certainly not imagining either a crannogman or a 14 year old girl... neither of whom has ever ridden a horse while wearing armor, or jousted against another human being, a single time in their whole lives. If you asked Jaime who would be the better jouster of those two, I have no idea what he would say.  But nobody ever did ask him, so Lyanna is not automatically the answer.

We are not talking about normal conditions.  I think of it in terms of handicapping.  Howland can ride a horse well enough to run down a line at speed but he doesn't sit a horse enough to be called a centaur.  He has no experience at jousting.  But he can call on a god and he can create a glamor by drawing from the essence of the greathelm and cloaking himself in the image of it's previous owner.  We are not told anything about what anyone actually sees.  He gets the advantage of appearing larger than his actual size even though he is a smaller target..  Tricking the eye of his opponent creates a different set of conditions where riding is not the most important factor.
 
 
 
Edited by LynnS

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6 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

If Howland could glamor himself, then he should be able to glamor Lyanna.  I mean Melisandre usually cast her glamor on others.  

I'm still of the mind that he wouldn't put her in such danger and he would take the risk himself.  Mel does employ glamors on others.  This seems to an advanced form where she uses rubies to control the glamour she casts on someone else.  The Faceless Men also employ an advanced form of glamors by using actual faces.  The Kindly Man tells Arya it's more more fool proof than the average glamor and people are less likely to see through it.   Ayra learns that some animals can see through it and suspects the trained seal can see through her glamor.  Which begs the question, can horses see through a glamor.  If the horse sees one thing and the rider another, how would it affect their horsemanship.

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4 hours ago, Nevets said:

while you may not like the connection to Rhaegar and the RLJ theory, I think there is such a connection.  Rhaegar appears to have become interested in Lyanna at that point,, and I can't think of any other reason for him to have named her Queen of Love and Beauty.  It certainly wasn't political, as it caused a huge, predictable scandal.  Whether his subsequent actions involved romance I have no idea and probably never will.

Well I'm pretty sure that Rhaegar fell upon Lyanna outside of Harrenhall, I'm not prepared to say that it was anything more than by accident or that Lyanna and Rhaegar fell in love at the tournament.  Reading the stuff from the World Book on the false spring makes me question what was going on beneath the surface.  Ned's dream of reaching for the crown and encountering hidden thorns underneath seems to suggest the same.   .

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17 hours ago, Melifeather said:

The only evidence we have regarding Lyanna is that she was an excellent rider, and the parallel with the Loras/Gregor tilt where the wording seems to hint that the "beautiful grey mare" built for speed is a nod towards Lyanna.

A mare would be an easier horse for Howland to ride than a stallion.

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14 hours ago, Targaryeninkingslanding said:

I think that's more of a parlor trick while stopped than something the horse can do while charinging

No a side jump while in galop is something a horse can do, the do it in the wild to avoid predators trying to jump on them you just have to teach them to do it on command.

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Posted (edited)
24 minutes ago, direpupy said:

No a side jump while in galop is something a horse can do, the do it in the wild to avoid predators trying to jump on them you just have to teach them to do it on command.

If all things are equal, then horsemanship might come down to the temperment of your stallion and how well you control it.

Jousing is about courage and strength, conquering your fear; offering yourself up to struck by a lance without flinching.  You win it in your mind.

How To Joust Like A Medieval Knight - YouTube

 

 

Edited by LynnS

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, LynnS said:

If all things are equal, then horsemanship might come down to the temperment of your stallion and how well you control it.

Jousing is about courage and strength, conquering your fear; offering yourself up to struck by a lance without flinching.  You win it in your mind.

How To Joust Like A Medieval Knight - YouTube

 

 

If you are talking about jousting like in the video which is an attempt at the late medieval joust then yes, but the problem is that the late medieval joust was not about unhorsing your opponent, It was about who made the cleanest hit on shield or helm ornament and taking the hit showing bravery was a mark in a contestants favor. The earlier joust where the intent was to unhorse and show off your skills as a warrior is very different and involved all the tricks you would use in warfare to prevent yourself from being unhorsed.

Modern recreations like in the video often get this wrong much to the frustration of people like me who studied history. My personal field is late antiquity but my colleagues of Medieval Studies are very focal about all the mistakes in these modern recreations

Edited by direpupy

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The joust in the video is not that bad he does explain that the winner is determent by where you strike your opponent with your lance and that they are supposed to break, which all but eliminates the change of unhorsing someone. So as a recreation of a late medieval joust its actually pretty good only minor errors as far as i could see.

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53 minutes ago, direpupy said:

If you are talking about jousting like in the video which is an attempt at the late medieval joust then yes, but the problem is that the late medieval joust was not about unhorsing your opponent, It was about who made the cleanest hit on shield or helm ornament and taking the hit showing bravery was a mark in a contestants favor. The earlier joust where the intent was to unhorse and show off your skills as a warrior is very different and involved all the tricks you would use in warfare to prevent yourself from being unhorsed.

Modern recreations like in the video often get this wrong much to the frustration of people like me who studied history. My personal field is late antiquity but my colleagues of Medieval Studies are very focal about all the mistakes in these modern recreations

OK.  I'll take the word of someone who studied medieval history.  I still think it's true that jousting is about bravery and conquering your own fear.  You have to win it in your mind.

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16 minutes ago, LynnS said:

OK.  I'll take the word of someone who studied medieval history.  I still think it's true that jousting is about bravery and conquering your own fear.  You have to win it in your mind.

Oh its certainly not for the faint of heart, even more so in the earlier form where you where running the risk of being knocked off your horse.

So bravery and conquering fear is and was always a part of jousting, its taking the hit and the rules of what you are allowed to hit that are the mayor differences.

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, direpupy said:

So bravery and conquering fear is and was always a part of jousting, its taking the hit and the rules of what you are allowed to hit that are the mayor differences.

It's the first lesson we hear Ned tell Bran:  Can you be brave if you are afraid.  The answer he gives is that it's the only time you can be brave. 

Quote

A Storm of Swords - Bran II

"No," said Bran. "I haven't. And if I have it doesn't matter. Sometimes Old Nan would tell the same story she'd told before, but we never minded, if it was a good story. Old stories are like old friends, she used to say. You have to visit them from time to time."

"That's true." Meera walked with her shield on her back, pushing an occasional branch out of the way with her frog spear. Just when Bran began to think that she wasn't going to tell the story after all, she began, "Once there was a curious lad who lived in the Neck. He was small like all crannogmen, but brave and smart and strong as well. He grew up hunting and fishing and climbing trees, and learned all the magics of my people."

 This is the lesson of Meera's story.  It's about being brave and smart and strong even if you are small.. 

Quote

A Game of Thrones - Bran VI

Broken, Bran thought bitterly as he clutched his knife. Is that what he was now? Bran the Broken? "I don't want to be broken," he whispered fiercely to Maester Luwin, who'd been seated to his right. "I want to be a knight."

"There are some who call my order the knights of the mind," Luwin replied. "You are a surpassing clever boy when you work at it, Bran. Have you ever thought that you might wear a maester's chain? There is no limit to what you might learn."

"I want to learn magic," Bran told him. "The crow promised that I would fly."

If it comes down to a choice between:

1) Howland - a full grown man who can ride but is not that familiar with horses and has never jousted or

2) Lyanna - a girl, who can ride well, has tilted at rings but has never jousted; 

Lyanna would seem to have the upper hand.  But if you asked Jaimie if she could win against a trained knight, I think we know the answer.

If the only way either could win is to use magic; then the choice becomes:

1) Howland - who certainly knows more about magic and the gods than Lyanna 

2) Lyanna - for whom we have no evidence that she knows anything about magic.

If the choice comes down to who gets on the horse. for me it has to be Howland.  I don't think he would put Lyanna in danger over himself.   I think Lyanna is smart enough to know that she couldn't win the joust.

Quote

A Storm of Swords - Bran II

"Then, as now," she agreed. "The wolf maid saw them too, and pointed them out to her brothers. 'I could find you a horse, and some armor that might fit,' the pup offered. The little crannogman thanked him, but gave no answer. His heart was torn. Crannogmen are smaller than most, but just as proud. The lad was no knight, no more than any of his people. We sit a boat more often than a horse, and our hands are made for oars, not lances. Much as he wished to have his vengeance, he feared he would only make a fool of himself and shame his people. The quiet wolf had offered the little crannogman a place in his tent that night, but before he slept he knelt on the lakeshore, looking across the water to where the Isle of Faces would be, and said a prayer to the old gods of north and Neck . . ."

A proud man doesn't let a girl fight his battles for him.

Proud: having or showing a consciousness of one's own dignity.

Edited by LynnS

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Posted (edited)
9 hours ago, direpupy said:

No a side jump while in galop is something a horse can do, the do it in the wild to avoid predators trying to jump on them you just have to teach them to do it on command.

Sorry what I meant to say is for Loras, or at least as how Loras demonstrates that skill with his horse, it is something done from a stopped position at a pace between walk and canter. It was not so much a jump but a sideways walk. Flashy but probably more dangerous than useful during a joust.

I imagined it akin to the first demonstration in this video:

From Eddard 7 AGOT

"His courser was as slim as her rider, a beautiful grey mare, built for speed. Ser Gregor's huge stallion trumpeted as he caught her scent. The boy from Highgarden did something with his legs, and his horse pranced sideways, nimble as a dancer. Sansa clutched at his arm. "Father, don't let Ser Gregor hurt him," she said. Ned saw she was wearing the rose that Ser Loras had given her yesterday. Jory had told him about that as well."

Having said that I really would like to see an example of a horse doing what you claimed. Sounds cool. I don't think I have ever seen a horse do what you describe, but I am not an equestrian. I am however having trouble finding an examples online using the keywords gallop and side jump. Any source to your claim would be appreciated.

Edited by Targaryeninkingslanding

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Posted (edited)
13 hours ago, Melifeather said:

I took the prancing to be more like the Lipizzaner horses.

 

12 hours ago, Targaryeninkingslanding said:

Ooo, this is a much better example. yeah I'd definitely liken that scene of the book referring to something more like this. Thanks for the link @Melifeather!

No this is a prancing horse: https://www.123rf.com/photo_33354025_beautiful-young-girl-with-prancing-horse-in-autumn.html

Its a jump, not a diagonal step. Or more accurately the prance is the horse standing on its hind legs and from there it can either come back down or push of with the hind legs and jump. The latter is what Loras did and he made the horse jump to the side, now for this he would have used a low prance the horse in the picture is doing a high prance so imagine the front legs being just above the ground for the action Loras did. This action can be done at speed which is why Loras can do it in a joust.

Edited by direpupy

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Did the Starks help Howland in any way?  I think it's possible.  He spent the first day watching the jousting and later feasted with them in the castle, watched the dancing.  He and Lyanna pointed out the three squires who mobbed him on his arrival.  They must have discussed what happened and what Howland could do about it. Benjen offers to find him a horse and equipment to challenge them in the joust.  He doesn't give them an answer but he thinks about it and prays to the gods before he retire in their tent. 

So what happened between that time and late afternoon of the next day before he appears as the mystery knight?  My contention is that he was the knight and he did agree to some help.  It seems possible to me that Benjen would have acquired the equipment being of a similar to size to Howland.  Since we only know that Bradon jousted it's probably not his equipment.  So potentially Benjen acquires the equipment from the Harrenhall armory and nobody else finds their own equipment missing.  Lyanna may have been tasked with finding him a suitable horse with her knowledge of riding, one that he could handle.  Most likely a mare rather than a stallion.  Potentially a horse she knows or one from the stables that can't be traced back to the Starks.

Howland spends the day with the Starks; possibly Ned, Lyanna and Benjen in a secluded location preparing for the jousting, becoming familiar with the horse, getting a crash course in jousting so he observes the forms and doesn't arrive completely out of the cold. 

After the jousting he leaves with the armor, sets the horse loose to return to the stables and leaves the shield behind..  He gets back on his skin boat and returns to the Isle of Faces.

This is a made-up story to fill in the blanks of course.  Much of what we have to do is guesswork and creating a backstory based on the little bits and pieces we are given.

Howland is gone by the time the Queen of Love and Beauty is crowned.  Aerys was wroth and the mystery knight was no friend to him.  Why Rhaegar gave the crown to Lyanna is anyone's guess. Whether he fell in love at first sight; whether he thought she was the Tree Knight or if she was the unnamed woman he fell in love with at the tourney is a story for the singers to tell. 

Certainly Barristan Selmy thought this way.  It's the only reason he can think of to award the crown of roses and to his mind Ashera should have been the one crowned.  At the same time he says that he was not part of Rhaegar's inner circle, so he could have no way of knowing if Rhaegar felt the same way or what reason he may have had for doing so.  

We do know from the World Book that Rhaegar and six close friends fell upon Lyanna ten leagues from Harenhall around the time that Brandon was travelling to Riverrun for his wedding.  After that what, happened to Lyanna is a blank page to write your own story on.

RLJ could still be true.  I don't know.  I have my suspicions that  Jon will turn Longclaw into the Red Sword at some point,  I don't know if this requires him to have a fire and ice bloodline though.  If Rhaegar thought Aegon was the PWIP, why would he need Lyanna or Jon for that purpose?  The author points us in two directions:  she was kidnapped and raped or she ran off to meet her true love.

The ambiguity begins with story of the Tree Knight where we are given additional morsels:  Lyanna rode like a centaur; she practiced at rings, she was wolf-blooded and capricious.  Rhaegar is the melancholy handsome prince and Howland is the little crannogman that she rescues.  Robert is slob she doesn't want to marry.  

Underneath all this is another narrative one that involves a mad king and Rhaegar taking the road less travelled.  Even if we start to uncover the politics of the tourney; there is another story buried beneath that story.

It's the story about Bran and what he will become in the future.  His 'Dream of Spring' begins here at Harrenhall when he uses his powers to carry out the fantasy of an 8 year old boy to be a knight for one day.  It's about the unintended consequences of using magic and it's a hint about the underlying magical cause of the seasons as they are now.  His presence is announced by the false spring itself. 

 

 

 

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52 minutes ago, LynnS said:

Did the Starks help Howland in any way?  I think it's possible.  He spent the first day watching the jousting and later feasted with them in the castle, watched the dancing.  He and Lyanna pointed out the three squires who mobbed him on his arrival.  They must have discussed what happened and what Howland could do about it. Benjen offers to find him a horse and equipment to challenge them in the joust.  He doesn't give them an answer but he thinks about it and prays to the gods before he retire in their tent. 

So what happened between that time and late afternoon of the next day before he appears as the mystery knight?  My contention is that he was the knight and he did agree to some help.  It seems possible to me that Benjen would have acquired the equipment being of a similar to size to Howland.  Since we only know that Bradon jousted it's probably not his equipment.  So potentially Benjen acquires the equipment from the Harrenhall armory and nobody else finds their own equipment missing.  Lyanna may have been tasked with finding him a suitable horse with her knowledge of riding, one that he could handle.  Most likely a mare rather than a stallion.  Potentially a horse she knows or one from the stables that can't be traced back to the Starks.

Howland spends the day with the Starks; possibly Ned, Lyanna and Benjen in a secluded location preparing for the jousting, becoming familiar with the horse, getting a crash course in jousting so he observes the forms and doesn't arrive completely out of the cold. 

My problem with this is that if he did accept help from the Stark's that there would really be no reason for it not to be part of the story, why would Meera hide this? Or if she did not know then why did Howland not tell her? For that matter if it had been Howland what is the big secret, why would there be a need to hide the identity of the knight.

We already know that as a nobleman he had a right to enter the tournament, being a knight is not a prerequisite because if that was the case Brandon could not have entered either. So that's not it.

If he did use magic to "cheat" how was anyone going to prove that? So that can't be it either.

Hiding his identity from the Mad King is no longer needed since he is long dead. So that again is no reason for Howland to hide from Meera that he is the mystery knight.

1 hour ago, LynnS said:

It's the story about Bran and what he will become in the future.  His 'Dream of Spring' begins here at Harrenhall when he uses his powers to carry out the fantasy of an 8 year old boy to be a knight for one day.  It's about the unintended consequences of using magic and it's a hint about the underlying magical cause of the seasons as they are now.  His presence is announced by the false spring itself. 

If it was Bran using magic then there is still a problem, while he could have warged Howland there is in fact no need for this to be the case.

If Bran has become powerful enough to do more then watch and whisper in to the past, then he by that time will most likely have learned to glamor since his teacher is Bloodraven of who it is heavily implied that he can glamor, so Bran does not need Howland for that. 

Next there is that Bran would have the most chance of winning if he warged someone who's skills are complementary to his and usefull for what he is about to do. For jousting his uncle Benjen or his aunt Lyanna would be more usefull then Howland.

If his intent is just to help Howland by warging him, then we have to wonder would Howland want that kind of help? As you yourself have pointed out he is just as proud as any other noble so he might not want to cheat like that, and even if Bran tried to force his way in like he does with Hodor, it probably would not work since Howland not only is said to know all the magic's of his people but also studied with the Green Men on the Isle of Faces. If anyone could block Bran it would be Howland.

For me the only way it could be Howland is if he used magic himself, since this is a skill of his own he might not consider that cheating. But then we have to wonder why Meera and Jojen think Bran must have heard the story before a thousand times because this implies Stark involvement.

So while i am not discounting Howland i do feel there are to many question's left to be able to say definitively that it was him.

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Posted (edited)
28 minutes ago, direpupy said:

For me the only way it could be Howland is if he used magic himself, since this is a skill of his own he might not consider that cheating. But then we have to wonder why Meera and Jojen think Bran must have heard the story before a thousand times because this implies Stark involvement.

So while i am not discounting Howland i do feel there are to many question's left to be able to say definitively that it was him.

Yes, there will always be more questions than answers. :D  But this is a good question.  Why do Meera and Jojen think that Bran must have heard the story hundreds of times and why didn't Ned tell anyone this story at all?

I imagine that Ned did know that Howland was the Tree Knight; that he helped him in the hours leading up to the jousting and this is the beginning of Ned's friendship with Howland.  Ned may not talk about it because it brings up Lyanna and her death which may also have been an unintended consequence of the tourney. Something that creates a lot of pain.  Bran doesn't actually know the gorey details of the demise of his uncle and grandfather.  Robb talks to Bran at one point and tells him that they are not sure how much information to give him because of his age.   I suspect these are all factors. 

Quote

A Game of Thrones - Eddard I

Ned would sooner entrust a child to a pit viper than to Lord Tywin, but he left his doubts unspoken. Some old wounds never truly heal, and bleed again at the slightest word. "The wife has lost the husband," he said carefully. "Perhaps the mother feared to lose the son. The boy is very young."

  Edit: Oh, the most obvious answer may be that he doesn't want to stir up stories and rumours about Lady Ashera again.  That's not a story his Lady Wife will appreciate hearing hundreds of times. 

Edited by LynnS

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