Howland Reed is the KotLT - Proof by Canon

[LynnS]

51 minutes ago, Crona said:

it’s already well known that Rhaegar crowned Lyanna and ran off with her before this event.

The story says that Rhaegar never found the mystery knight, so he doesn't know who it was and he gave the crown to Lyanna for other reasons. 

[LynnS]

38 minutes ago, HoodedCrow said:

OMG, did Bran kill Arthur Dayne?( as Howland)

LOL! I wouldn't go that far.  The main point is that without Howland, Arthur would have killed Ned and Bran would not have been born. 

[Crona]

15 minutes ago, LynnS said:

The story says that Rhaegar never found the mystery knight, so he doesn't know who it was and he gave the crown to Lyanna for other reasons. 

Oh right I should have said this event happened before Rhaegar gave her the crown. Yea, I think Rheagar gave her the crown for another reason.

[LynnS]

The biggest problem that I have with romance narrative and it's assumptions, is that it doesn't do what it is supposed to do.  Which is to put Jon into the driver's seat as the PWIP.

We are told nothing about what the prophecy actually says, but we can deduce from Aemon that the promised prince is supposed to hatch dragons and a comet will appear to announce their birth.  Also that the prince comes from the line of Aerys and Rhaella.

So Aerys thinks his firstborn will be PWIP and as Rhaella reaches her due date: Aerys and his court make for Summerhall with pyromacers and dragon eggs anticipating the birth of dragons.  When Rhaella goes into labor, the pyromancers attempt to hatch dragon eggs with wildfire and the celebration turns into tragedy.

Nevertheless,  Rhaegar grows up believing that he is the PWIP and must find the secret or means for hatching dragons.  Until he discovers that a comet didn't appear on the day of his birth and this disqualifies him.   This is a mistake because the comet isn't supposed to appear when the PWIP is born but instead when actual dragons are born.

Like Aerys, he also tries to create the conditions for the birth of the PWIP who will hatch dragons.  So on the day that a comet appears, he makes his way to Elia's bed and conceives Aegon.  Another mistake but he thinks this proves that Aegon is the promised prince and we hear him say as much in the House of Undying.  

So when he says the dragon has three heads and there must be one more, what does he mean and what does he mean about the song of ice and fire?

I do think he intends to have one more child but he's looking for a daughter and not a son.  His first two children are named after Aegon the Conqueror and his sister Rhaenys and the third head of the dragon should be named Visenya, if all goes to plan.

I don't think the song of ice and fire is about the mixing of fire and ice bloodlines to get the PWIP; but a reference to the coming battle for the dawn.  

It would seem that Dany fits the criteria for the PWIP.  Why is the romance narrative still important if the original assumptions are no longer correct?  Does it still serve a purpose for Lyanna to be the Tree Knight?

[mormont]

16 hours ago, Crona said:

Did I say Ned? I said HOWLAND, who did tell his kids, why would he conceal the identity? I only said there is no reason for Ned to swear Howland to secrecy over this.

I may have been confused. But of course, Howland hasn't been sworn to secrecy over this story, or he wouldn't have told it to Jojen and Meera. And presumably, parts at least of the story itself (though of course not the identity of the mystery knight) are publicly known. Not very well known, or the Stark kids would have heard it somewhere else, but the appearance of the mystery knight must be part of the stories about the Harrenhal tourney. Somewhat overshadowed by what happened next, of course, when Rhaegar gives the crown of love and beauty to Lyanna. That, of course, is largely unrelated to the story of the Knight of the Laughing Tree if the mystery knight was Howland... but if it was Lyanna, then it can be read as a backhanded way of Rhaegar acknowledging Lyanna's victories in the tournament.

16 hours ago, Crona said:

it’s already well known that Rhaegar crowned Lyanna and ran off with her before this event. 

I think you need to check that detail.

 

[LynnS]

On 7/23/2021 at 6:27 AM, mormont said:

Depends what we mean by 'medieval' as that term covers a huge range, geographically and chronologically: plus ASOIAF borrows liberally from both medieval and early Renaissance period real-world history. But when it comes to jousting, as depicted in ASOIAF they seem to use standard 'heater' shields (itself an anachronistic term coined much later by historians).

Circling back to the 'heater shield', I looked it up and wikipedia says they were usually made of a thin piece of wood covered with leather or metal, and may have metal embossing or reinforcement.  How can a leather shield be good for anything? And how would it be held if you have a lance in one hand and have to control the horse with the reigns in another hand.  I assume jousters are aiming for the shield.

[LynnS]

18 hours ago, mormont said:

but if it was Lyanna, then it can be read as a backhanded way of Rhaegar acknowledging Lyanna's victories in the tournament.

The problem I have with this reason is that we are told that Rhaegar didn't discover the identity of the Tree Knight, so he didn't give the crown to her for that reason. I think it's possible that he discovered the story behind the three squires and the connection to Lyanna. Even so I don't think that a girl unhorsing three knights would cross his mind.  But the connection to Lyanna is there and this story would have to be disclosed to Aerys, who already sees the Tree Knight is no friend to him.

The decision to give the crown to Lyanna over Elia seems more insidious and I don't think Rhaegar had a choice or he would have crowned his wife.  He seems to have been undermined and whatever he was attempting to do at the tourney ended in a sour note. That his wife doesn't hold this against him, may have been the point where he actually falls in love with his own wife.

This dream of Ned's is very suggestive of the undercurrents at the tourney:

Quote

A Game of Thrones - Eddard XV

Robert had been jesting with Jon and old Lord Hunter as the prince circled the field after unhorsing Ser Barristan in the final tilt to claim the champion's crown. Ned remembered the moment when all the smiles died, when Prince Rhaegar Targaryen urged his horse past his own wife, the Dornish princess Elia Martell, to lay the queen of beauty's laurel in Lyanna's lap. He could see it still: a crown of winter roses, blue as frost.

Ned Stark reached out his hand to grasp the flowery crown, but beneath the pale blue petals the thorns lay hidden. He felt them clawing at his skin, sharp and cruel, saw the slow trickle of blood run down his fingers, and woke, trembling, in the dark.

This description sounds similar to the Iron Throne:

Quote

A Game of Thrones - Eddard XI

Ned could feel cold steel against his fingers as he leaned forward. Between each finger was a blade, the points of twisted swords fanning out like talons from arms of the throne. Even after three centuries, some were still sharp enough to cut. The Iron Throne was full of traps for the unwary. The songs said it had taken a thousand blades to make it, heated white-hot in the furnace breath of Balerion the Black Dread. The hammering had taken fifty-nine days. The end of it was this hunched black beast made of razor edges and barbs and ribbons of sharp metal; a chair that could kill a man, and had, if the stories could be believed.

  

Quote

A Clash of Kings - Tyrion VI

The Iron Throne of Aegon the Conqueror was a tangle of nasty barbs and jagged metal teeth waiting for any fool who tried to sit too comfortably, and the steps made his stunted legs cramp as he climbed up to it, all too aware of what an absurd spectacle he must be. Yet there was one thing to be said for it. It was high.

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A Storm of Swords - Jaime II

But when he closed his eyes, it was Aerys Targaryen he saw, pacing alone in his throne room, picking at his scabbed and bleeding hands. The fool was always cutting himself on the blades and barbs of the Iron Throne. Jaime had slipped in through the king's door, clad in his golden armor, sword in hand. The golden armor, not the white, but no one ever remembers that. Would that I had taken off that damned cloa k as well.

The word play between throne and thorn seems to point to Aerys, someone we know to be cruel, with nails so overgown, they are described as claws. and whose presence overshadows the tournament.  I think awarding the crown to Lyanna was his decision and Rhaegar didn't have a choice.

[LadySage]

Been thoroughly enjoying this thread. Just curious, @LynnS , if possible, could you maybe please elaborate on your notion that Aerys was actually the impetus for Lyanna being the "crown" recipient? Thanks!

[Springwatch]

I've been enjoying the thread too. I'm ultra-conventional on RLJ and Lyanna as KotLT - but I must admit a bit of heresy generates infinitely more ideas.

[mormont]

6 hours ago, LynnS said:

The problem I have with this reason is that we are told that Rhaegar didn't discover the identity of the Tree Knight

Are we?

[LynnS]

1 minute ago, mormont said:

Are we?

You will have to say more about that.  I don't know what you mean.

[LynnS]

1 hour ago, Springwatch said:

I've been enjoying the thread too. I'm ultra-conventional on RLJ and Lyanna as KotLT - but I must admit a bit of heresy generates infinitely more ideas.

Cheers!  I have no idea myself whether Rhaegar is Jon's father.  We are not given anything other than Jon's physical characteristics and he's a Stark through and through,  That leaves either Ned as his father or Lyanna as his mother. 

[LynnS]

6 hours ago, LadySage said:

Been thoroughly enjoying this thread. Just curious, @LynnS , if possible, could you maybe please elaborate on your notion that Aerys was actually the impetus for Lyanna being the "crown" recipient? Thanks!

Cheers!  Aerys interferes by sending Rhaegar to conduct an investigation.  He's clearly angry with the Tree Knight chastising his lords and says he is no friend to him, but he may suspect the Starks having a hand in it because of Lyanna and the squires.  Giving her the crown is a way of saying he knows that the Tree Knight is her champion.  In a sense, it's a public shaming and the reason all the smiles died. I don't think this is something Rhaegar would do by choice. 

I think the events at Duskendale showed that the crown's alliances were unstable and that Rhaegar may have been attempting to repair the damage done, attempting to shore up alliances at the tourney.  Giving the crown to Lyanna undermines any efforts in that direction. 

Aerys in turn may have been suspicious of Rhaegar's motivations and suddenly decides to attend.  Rhaegar does tell Jaime that when he returns from the Trident changes will be made; a road he should have taken before this:

Quote

A Feast for Crows - Jaime I

"Then guard the king," Ser Jon Darry snapped at him. "When you donned that cloak, you promised to obey."

Rhaegar had put his hand on Jaime's shoulder. "When this battle's done I mean to call a council. Changes will be made. I meant to do it long ago, but . . . well, it does no good to speak of roads not taken. We shall talk when I return."

Those were the last words Rhaegar Targaryen ever spoke to him. Outside the gates an army had assembled, whilst another descended on the Trident. So the Prince of Dragonstone mounted up and donned his tall black helm, and rode forth to his doom.

I think of Aerys as the monkey on Rhaegar's back.    

[LynnS]

@Canon Claude  I'm coming back to you because I treated you so badly.  I can only say that I was defensive and worried that the OP was going to touch on matters that would ignite something akin to the old RLJ flame wars.  But that's not an excuse.  Is there anything you still want to discuss?

[Crona]

On 7/24/2021 at 1:30 AM, mormont said:

I may have been confused. But of course, Howland hasn't been sworn to secrecy over this story, or he wouldn't have told it to Jojen and Meera. And presumably, parts at least of the story itself (though of course not the identity of the mystery knight) are publicly known. Not very well known, or the Stark kids would have heard it somewhere else, but the appearance of the mystery knight must be part of the stories about the Harrenhal tourney. Somewhat overshadowed by what happened next, of course, when Rhaegar gives the crown of love and beauty to Lyanna. That, of course, is largely unrelated to the story of the Knight of the Laughing Tree if the mystery knight was Howland... but if it was Lyanna, then it can be read as a backhanded way of Rhaegar acknowledging Lyanna's victories in the tournament.

I think you need to check that detail.

 

I meant that Rhaegar crowned and ran off with Lyanna after the knight had vanished. Even after the events of RR nobody makes the connection to Jon. Why would it matter if she was in a tourney once, how does Rhaegar meeting her before crowning her make any difference? It could be infatuation either way.  The text doesn’t even say Rhaegar found the knight. He only searched for the knight and found a shield. Please give me a quote where it says Rhaegar was anywhere close to finding the knight. 
 

BTW I think it mentions that he caused quite a stir to Aerys when he appears. If one was perceptive they would notice he targeted the same knights who’s squires bullied a stark bannerman.

i think maybe Aerys had thought the mystery knight was a northerner and had dishonored Ashara before running off or the northerners were hiding the knight. Perhaps this is why Lyanna was crowned.

Ironically if it was Bran then he had probably stopped Rhaegar’s plans and created a rift between several families

[Frey family reunion]

On 7/23/2021 at 3:58 AM, mormont said:

This sort of argument falls victim to the problem that this is a story, though. GRRM knows a limited amount about subjects like jousting but a, he doesn't know everything and b, he is explicitly willing to ignore what he does know if it makes a better story. (For example, GRRM knows perfectly well that longswords became backup weapons at best once partial/full plate armour became a thing and that his knights should all have polearms but he ignores that because swords are more resonant symbolically, or to put it another way, swords are cool.)

I do tend to agree with you on this point.  We only have to look at Tyrion's prowess on the battle field to understand that GRRM likes to bend believability a bit for the sake of telling a better story.  My bigger problem with putting everything on the slim shoulders of Lyanna is that it tends to minimize Howland's role in his own revenge scheme too much.  Which is why I think we're looking at a corroborative effort between the two, each playing to their own strengths.

On 7/23/2021 at 3:58 AM, mormont said:

Besides, the basic element of the story is that the mystery knight is an underdog who overcomes the odds. So it can be someone who shouldn't win, but does.

I've heard both you and @LynnS mentions this, but I'm not sure I agree that this is the moral of the story.  If it was, then the story would have been made clear who the Knight of the Laughing Tree was.  All we're told is that it is a knight that apparently answered Howland's prayers to the Old Gods.  Why wouldn't we think that such a knight should be easily able to dispatch knights without such divine attributes?

I think the moral of the story instead is what the KOTLT gives to the assembled knights.  Knights are meant to defend the weak, not victimize them.  That's the true meaning of honor.

After all, while Howland physically can't handle three squires, and he's not suited for jousting, the story makes it clear that Howland is very capable in his own way:

Quote

“Once there was a curious lad who lived in the Neck. He was small like all crannogmen, but brave and smart and strong as well. He grew up hunting and fishing and climbing trees, and learned all the magics of my people.”

Bran was almost certain he had never heard this story. “Did he have green dreams like Jojen?”
“No,” said Meera, “but he could breathe mud and run on leaves, and change earth to water and water to earth with no more than a whispered word. He could talk to trees and weave words and make castles appear and disappear.”

“I wish I could,” Bran said plaintively. “When does he meet the tree knight?”

Quote

“The lad knew the magics of the crannogs,” she continued, “but he wanted more.  Our people seldom travel far from home, you know. We’re a small folk, and our ways seem queer to some, so the big people do not always treat us kindly. But this lad was bolder than most, and one day when he had grown to manhood he decided he would leave the crannogs and visit the Isle of Faces.”

I think it should be clear that in his own way, Howland could have sought terrible retribution on the three squires or the knights that failed to teach them honor.  After all this is one of the few persons ever to have made his way to the Isle of Faces.  But I don't think the real issue for Howland is just seek retribution, the issue for Howland is that he wanted to make a point, to all the assembled knights.

Hence TKOTLT.  And while I do tend to think that Lyanna wore the armor, I think the booming voice we heard was Howland's as he gave the true moral of the story.

Those who have power have an honorable duty to defend those who do not.

And I think it's fitting that Bran is hearing the story, because although Bran is crippled, it is clear that Bran is on his way to becoming a very powerful greenseer who is about to enter the weirnet where his influence could be felt across time.

Unfortunately, I'm not sure that Bran really grasps the true lesson contained in the story:

Quote

“Oh.” Bran thought about the tale awhile. “That was a good story. But it should have been the three bad knights who hurt him, not their squires. Then the little crannogman could have killed them all. The part about the ransoms was stupid. And the mystery knight should win the tourney, defeating every challenger, and name the wolf maid the queen of love and beauty.”

 

[LynnS]

1 hour ago, Frey family reunion said:

I've heard both you and @LynnS mentions this, but I'm not sure I agree that this is the moral of the story.

Oh yes I agree.  It may be an underdog story but the true moral of the story is about being a true knight.   This may not be the only thing that Bran doesn't grasp about the story.  He doesn't seem to recognize that Meera is talking about Bran's own family.  He doesn't seem to recognize that the quiet wolf is Ned or that the wolf-maid is Lyanna.  Which may be another reason for Jojen to question Bran. 

[mormont]

15 hours ago, Crona said:

The text doesn’t even say Rhaegar found the knight. He only searched for the knight and found a shield. Please give me a quote where it says Rhaegar was anywhere close to finding the knight.

There's no such text, of course. But we are told that Rhaegar was tasked with finding the KotLT: we know that Aerys wanted to see the KotLT punished because of his growing paranoia: we know that Rhaegar was at the stage where he was willing to take steps to address the problems caused by that paranoia: we know that Rhaegar rarely failed at anything he set his mind to: and we know that Rhaegar gave Lyanna public recognition after the KotLT mysteriously disappears without trace.

Good enough for me. YMMV.

15 hours ago, Crona said:

BTW I think it mentions that he caused quite a stir to Aerys when he appears. If one was perceptive they would notice he targeted the same knights who’s squires bullied a stark bannerman.

If one knew of that bullying incident, of course. The KotLT makes clear that the knights' squires are guilty of unchivalrous behaviour, but there's no indication that anyone but the squires, Lyanna and Howland witnessed the incident, or that anyone but those five, Ned and Brandon knew of it.

14 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

I think the moral of the story instead is what the KOTLT gives to the assembled knights.  Knights are meant to defend the weak, not victimize them.  That's the true meaning of honor.

I agree, obviously, but that's not inconsistent with the KotLT being an underdog - in fact it's complementary, I think. The KotLT isn't a vision of chivalry in appearance but he defeats the knights nonetheless because he has virtue on his side. That 'he' is actually a woman only makes the story more powerful and resonant thematically: look at how many threads of the wider story are about gender and power.

[direpupy]

On 7/24/2021 at 3:04 PM, LynnS said:

Circling back to the 'heater shield', I looked it up and wikipedia says they were usually made of a thin piece of wood covered with leather or metal, and may have metal embossing or reinforcement.  How can a leather shield be good for anything? And how would it be held if you have a lance in one hand and have to control the horse with the reigns in another hand.  I assume jousters are aiming for the shield.

Late medieval joust yes, early medieval joust no. If they intent is to unhorse which it is in the books, the shield is the worst place to aim for because it gives the most chance to deflect or take the impact.

[direpupy]

On 7/23/2021 at 1:41 PM, LynnS said:

Oh I wasn't attempting to exclude information.  The passage you quote serves to show how desperate the situation became.  I still see it as not typical of these sort of interactions with Hodor, including Bran's own internal experience.  I can see the green men interacting with the gods in this way as their protectors.  I think this what Martin is showing us.  That there is a different sort of magic at play.    

I have to say that i just do not read that in there at all, for me it is a sign of the whole "magic is a blade without a hilt" thing, its an accident and it was not supposed to happen. Warging a human is considered an abomination under wargs as is made clear in the prologue POV of Varamyr Sixskins in aDwD, so i doubt it is something that anyone would want or actively seek. Much less a way to communicate.