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LynnS

Howland Reed is the KotLT - Proof by Canon

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14 minutes ago, LynnS said:

Isn't this what it means to be a true knight?

It's certainly an important lesson for Bran, if he's going to become a "Tree Knight" or a "Green Ser".  

I think the lesson for Bran is that he doesn't become the monster.

Quote

 "Who sent you? Who is this three-eyed crow?"

"A friend. Dreamer, wizard, call him what you will. The last greenseer." ...

"A monster," Bran said.

The ranger looked at Bran as if the rest of them did not exist. "Your monster, Brandon Stark."

"Yours," the raven echoed from his shoulder.

 

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1 hour ago, Tucu said:

If we zoom-out a bit, we see Howland travelling to train with the Green Men, ancient protectors of the weirwoods and greenseers of the Isle of Faces. Years later his daughter, wearing his armor, pledges her arms to the Prince who is a future greenseer. Then she escorts him to his weirwood throne where we learned that the CoTF have been preparing for his arrival for more than 200 years.

The oath is about pledging their faith in Bran:

Quote

 

A Storm of Swords - Bran I

"The gods give many gifts, Bran. My sister is a hunter. It is given to her to run swiftly, and stand so still she seems to vanish. She has sharp ears, keen eyes, a steady hand with net and spear. She can breathe mud and fly through trees. I could not do these things, no more than you could. To me the gods gave the green dreams, and to you . . . you could be more than me, Bran. You are the winged wolf, and there is no saying how far and high you might fly . . . if you had someone to teach you. How can I help you master a gift I do not understand? We remember the First Men in the Neck, and the children of the forest who were their friends . . . but so much is forgotten, and so much we never knew."

Meera took Bran by the hand. "If we stay here, troubling no one, you'll be safe until the war ends. You will not learn, though, except what my brother can teach you, and you've heard what he says. If we leave this place to seek refuge at Last Hearth or beyond the Wall, we risk being taken. You are only a boy, I know, but you are our prince as well, our lord's son and our king's true heir. We have sworn you our faith by earth and water, bronze and iron, ice and fire. The risk is yours, Bran, as is the gift. The choice should be yours too, I think. We are your servants to command." She grinned. "At least in this."

"You mean," Bran said, "you'll do what I say? Truly?"

 

Meera's skills are interesting.  Flying through trees like a squirrel from branch to branch: breathing mud hiding in a swamp using a breathing tube; standing still while camouflaged and becoming invisible? Howland has the additional magics of running on leaves - knowing which leaves are safe to run on and which are covering bogs and quicksand.  Changing earth to water and water to earth - changing the course of streams or damming them to flood or remove water from the terrain.  

This might seem like magic to the Andals when they invaded.  I think the real magic is Howland's ability to talk to trees. That might be more akin to tree-Bran talking to Jon. 

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Posted (edited)
3 minutes ago, Frey family reunion said:

It's certainly an important lesson for Bran, if he's going to become a "Tree Knight" or a "Green Ser".  

I think the lesson for Bran is that he doesn't become the monster.

 

Good point. Also  Mormont's Raven sure gets around. :D

Edited by LynnS

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This is the man who got beat up by little boys. No. Unless his gods answered his prayer and gave him steroids.

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Moiraine Sedai said:

This is the man who got beat up by little boys. No. Unless his gods answered his prayer and gave him steroids.

LOL! Or it's not his habit to beat up little boys no matter badly they behave.  So he holds the Knights responsible  for their behavior instead.  So yes, he gets his balls out of his purse and kicks some ass.

Edited by LynnS

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Posted (edited)

I think the biggest argument against it being Howland Reed is Jojen and what he says.

"There was one knight," said Meera, "in the year of the false spring. The Knight of the Laughing Tree, they called him. He might have been a crannogman, that one."
"Or not." Jojen's face was dappled with green shadows. "Prince Bran has heard that tale a hundred times, I'm sure."

Meera, the playful of the two siblings is teasing that it might have been the crannogman who was the mystery knight, but Jojen, the serious of the two essentially implies that Bran already knows who the mystery knight is because he's heard the story a hundred times, which is where the "or not" comes from.

I think this is the part that debunks Howland Reed as the mystery knight. The helm could have come from anywhere. We know there are knights that went to try and find Greywater Watch only to drown. We're told that a couple of pages or so before Meera starts her story.

Edited by Alexis-something-Rose

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Posted (edited)
6 hours ago, Alexis-something-Rose said:

I think this is the part that debunks Howland Reed as the mystery knight. The helm could have come from anywhere. We know there are knights that went to try and find Greywater Watch only to drown. We're told that a couple of pages or so before Meera starts her story.

I think the statement is interesting because I think Jojen is implying that Bran is involved - so it may have been the Crannogman and Bran,  That is something that should be considered since Martin has said that he has been experimenting with time and causality, effecting past events.  Personally, I think Bran was the KotLT and Howland was the horse he rode in on. 

I understand why people are so opposed to the idea the Howland is the KotLT.  Many people are heavily invested in Lyanna being the KotLT because it is part of the RLJ narrative.   That Lyanna and Rhaegar fell in love because she was the mystery knight and this is why he gave her the crown of roses.

We do have some information about Lyanna and Rhaegar from canon.  The World Book says that Rhaegar and a party of six close friends and companions fell upon Lyanna some 10 leagues from Harrenhall.  GRRM wrote this section, so I accept it as canon.  We learn from Catelyn that Bandon was travelling to Riverrun to be married when he heard about Lyanna and ran off to Kingslanding to call out Rhaegar.  We also know prior to this that Lyanna had returned to Winterfel,l after the tourney, because Ned talks to her about her betrothal to Robert there. 

So I think the whole kidnapping story went down like this:

- the Starks are travelling from Winterfell to Riverrun in two parties close together, Lyanna is travelling with her father's party

- for reasons unknown, Lyanna runs off on her own in the vicinity of Harrenhall 

- Rhaegar is travelling in the region, at the same time, also for reasons unknown, and falls upon Lyanna.  Falling upon Lyanna implies that this a chance encounter and there is also no reason to assume that Lyanna knew Rhaegar would be travelling in the area.  I think its reasonable to assume that Rhaegar would not allow a noble lady, of an important family, to travel without protection.

- Somebody witnesses this encounter and interprets it as a kidnapping and that story spreads among the locals until Brandon hears about it.   Possibly at the Inn of the Crossroads.  This is why Robert accuses Rhaegar of kidnapping.

- Then we don't hear anymore about Lyanna until she dies. 

Whatever happened between Rhaegar and Lyanna happened because of a chance encounter, long after the tourney.  I think the crown of roses was given for political reasons. 

Jojen may know more about  Bran's involvement than Meera because of his own gifts,

I'm not the first person to suggest that the story is about Bran's powers.  This has been largely dismissed because "time travel" was a cheap trick.  This is before Martin had said he has been thinking of using these concepts since GoT.  We don't know exactly what Martin is doing or how to recognize when he's using these ideas.  It's pretty clear from reaction that people don't want the narrative to change.  But he has said it and given one example with Hodor.  So I have suspected that there is a closed time loop (for lack of a better word) and I have wouldn't have brought it up, if it wasn't for Meera's greathelm. 

I don't really want to get into a discussion about RLJ.  I just don't think Lyanna has to be the KotLT for that narrative to work.  More to the point, the story is really about Bran and this is why he's being told the story and questioned about what he knows about it.  

Martin imbeds the answer to the mystery right in front of us.  That's what surprises me the most.

 

Edited by LynnS

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Posted (edited)
On 7/11/2021 at 10:27 AM, LynnS said:

Just because because he refused the Starks doesn't mean there wasn't any available for the taking

Just because they have the helm......see how that works?

Edited by the Other Wolf

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9 hours ago, LynnS said:

The World Book says that Rhaegar and a party of six close friends and companions fell upon Lyanna some 10 leagues from Harrenhall.  GRRM wrote this section, so I accept it as canon. 

You do know that this book is an "in universe" history book written by a Maester for Robert, right? 

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Posted (edited)
30 minutes ago, the Other Wolf said:

You do know that this book is an "in universe" history book written by a Maester for Robert, right? 

 I do see how it works.  This section of the World Book was written by Martin.  It's also accepted and cited as canon by RLJ supporters.  If it supports the narrative you want, it's canon.  If it doesn't support the narrative you want, it's not canon.  GRRM wrote it, it's canon.

What I also know is that the RLJ narrative is an old theory that is well over 10 years old and to say that our understanding of it hasn't changed in all that time would be false.  One of the basic assumptions built into it from the beginning is that Jon was the PWIP.  It turns out that Dany is the PWIP.  

What I see is that some people want the plucky girl to be the heroine rather than the little man who let three boys beat him up and a stubborn resistance to anything that contradicts it.  Do you see how that works?

Edited by LynnS

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23 minutes ago, LynnS said:

 It's also accepted and cited as canon by RLJ supporters.  If it supports the narrative you want, it's canon.  If it doesn't support the narrative you want, it's not canon.  GRRM wrote it, it's canon.

This does not make it cannon. 

This book is what the people of the time thought happened, nothing more. 

I agree some things in this book will turn out to be true, but at this time it should not be used as cannon. (Nor should the f'ing show for that matter).

Now if you can point me (not that it is your job) to where GRRM said it is cannon that would be a different story.

As to the rest of your reply, I am not arguing any of that.  I am simply pointing out the lack of logic in the assumption.  As the posession of the helm is NOT evidence of anything and the world book should not be a source of fact as it is supposed to be written in universe. These are the only points I was making.

:cheers:

 

 

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Posted (edited)
25 minutes ago, the Other Wolf said:

Now if you can point me (not that it is your job) to where GRRM said it is cannon that would be a different story.

@Frey family reunion  Do you want to answer this one?  It's written by Glyndayn (Martin's nom de plume in the World Book).

I agree, you do have to consider where the information comes from in the World Book, and the show is the show for better or worse.

What I'm proposing is not illogical.  It has a logical consistency with what we are told:

Howland refused the help the Starks offered.  Spent the night alone on the shore of the Isle of Faces praying to the old gods and the mystery night shows up the next day as the champion of the old gods of the north and the neck; to teach the knights a lesson about what it means to behave with honor.  He is not a friend yo Aerys, is not unmasked and leaves the tourney the same day.  All he leaves behind is the shield.  A greathelm is something used specifically for jousting and next to useless in a pitched battle.  It's not something the crannogmen would have a use for or find in their possession even if it is a relic of the Andal invasion of the Neck thousands of years ago.

That an old greathelm shows up in Meera's possession along with the story itself; points to Howland as the KotLT.  It is serious evidence.

 

Edited by LynnS

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4 hours ago, LynnS said:

Do you want to answer this one?  It's written by Glyndayn (Martin's nom de plume in the World Book).

It came up in a thread a while back and Ran was the one who indicated which chapters GRRM wrote in their entirety.  So you may want to message or flag him and ask.  But I’m pretty sure it was the three chapters from the Harrenhal tourney up through the rebellion.

As for the source of the information, sure you can question it, because we don’t know the source of the Maester’s info.  All we can go on is that the Maester seems to think it’s the story is so well known he doesn’t have to further go into it.

The fact that it’s so detailed, as to how close she was to Harrenhal makes me think that there is something to it, but once again like much in the books we have to take any info based on second (or third hand) info with a grain of salt.

But I do think that the specific information is “canon” insomuch as this information is out in the public domain of Westeros.  (Now whether the info is “true” or not :dunno:)

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2 minutes ago, Frey family reunion said:

It came up in a thread a while back and Ran was the one who indicated which chapters GRRM wrote in their entirety.  So you may want to message or flag him and ask.  But I’m pretty sure it was the three chapters from the Harrenhal tourney up through the rebellion.

As for the source of the information, sure you can question it, because we don’t know the source of the Maester’s info.  All we can go on is that the Maester seems to think it’s the story is so well known he doesn’t have to further go into it.

The fact that it’s so detailed, as to how close she was to Harrenhal makes me think that there is something to it, but once again like much in the books we have to take any info based on second (or third hand) info with a grain of salt.

But I do think that the specific information is “canon” insomuch as this information is out in the public domain of Westeros.  (Now whether the info is “true” or not :dunno:)

Thank you.  I leant my copy of the World Book to my niece so I couldn't check for myself.  IIRC, sections written by Archmaester Gyldayn are noted in sidebars in the book. 

My take on it is that its all canon, albeit written from the POV of a maester from the Citadel and so may contain misinformation or bias. GRRM writes as the Gyldayn.  It's not something I'll easily dismiss.

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

 

As for the source of the information, sure you can question it, because we don’t know the source of the Maester’s info.  All we can go on is that the Maester seems to think it’s the story is so well known he doesn’t have to further go into it.

The fact that it’s so detailed, as to how close she was to Harrenhal makes me think that there is something to it, but once again like much in the books we have to take any info based on second (or third hand) info with a grain of salt.

But I do think that the specific information is “canon” insomuch as this information is out in the public domain of Westeros.  (Now whether the info is “true” or not :dunno:)

That is all I am implying.  Thank you Frey.

Edited by the Other Wolf

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On 7/13/2021 at 5:41 AM, LynnS said:

We do have some information about Lyanna and Rhaegar from canon.  The World Book says that Rhaegar and a party of six close friends and companions fell upon Lyanna some 10 leagues from Harrenhall.  GRRM wrote this section, so I accept it as canon.  We learn from Catelyn that Bandon was travelling to Riverrun to be married when he heard about Lyanna and ran off to Kingslanding to call out Rhaegar.  We also know prior to this that Lyanna had returned to Winterfel,l after the tourney, because Ned talks to her about her betrothal to Robert there. 

The bolded part actually happens before the tournament, right after the betrothal is announced. The tournament happens several years later.

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32 minutes ago, direpupy said:

The bolded part actually happens before the tournament, right after the betrothal is announced. The tournament happens several years later.

Oh really! Thanks for bringing that up.

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48 minutes ago, direpupy said:

The bolded part actually happens before the tournament, right after the betrothal is announced. The tournament happens several years later.

I agree that the conversation had to have happened before the tourney, but where did you get that the tourney happened several years after the betrothal was announced?

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1 hour ago, Frey family reunion said:

I agree that the conversation had to have happened before the tourney, but where did you get that the tourney happened several years after the betrothal was announced?

Also how long between the tourney and Brandon's wedding.  Do we know?  

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Frey family reunion said:

I agree that the conversation had to have happened before the tourney, but where did you get that the tourney happened several years after the betrothal was announced?

The several was from the top of my head so i looked it up for you, and its actually one to two years

in "The world of ice and fire" it is stated in the section that deals with the tournament that Lyanna had long been betrothed to Robert, it is doubtfull the word long would have been used if it was less then one year. Also in GoT there is the line in the conversation between Ned and Lyanna right after the betrothal  where Ned thinks of Mya Stone as a babe and Mya was born in 279 or 280 while the tournament was in 281 again gives us one to two years between the conversation which took place right after the announcement of the betrothal and the tournament.

Edited by direpupy

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