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LynnS

Howland Reed is the KotLT - Proof by Canon

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1 hour ago, direpupy said:

Yes Brandon entered the Joust.

A Game of Thrones - Eddard XV
Yet when the jousting began, the day belonged to Rhaegar Targaryen. The crown prince wore the armor he would die in: gleaming black plate with the three-headed dragon of his House wrought in rubies on the breast. A plume of scarlet silk streamed behind him when he rode, and it seemed no lance could touch him. Brandon fell to him, and Bronze Yohn Royce, and even the splendid Ser Arthur Dayne, the Sword of the Morning.

Thank you, I read the whole thing again and it's not mentioned in Meera's story.  I wasn't sure if the Starks had any armor to give him.  But if Brandon was going to use his armor; I'm not sure it would be made available to Howland by Brandon.

It's Benjen who offers to find Howland  a horse and armour but he doesn't give him an answer.

Quote

 

A Storm of Swords - Bran II

"The Freys," said Bran. "The Freys of the Crossing."

"Then, as now," she agreed. "The wolf maid saw them too, and pointed them out to her brothers. 'I could find you a horse, and some armor that might fit,' the pup offered. The little crannogman thanked him, but gave no answer. His heart was torn. Crannogmen are smaller than most, but just as proud. The lad was no knight, no more than any of his people. We sit a boat more often than a horse, and our hands are made for oars, not lances. Much as he wished to have his vengeance, he feared he would only make a fool of himself and shame his people. The quiet wolf had offered the little crannogman a place in his tent that night, but before he slept he knelt on the lakeshore, looking across the water to where the Isle of Faces would be, and said a prayer to the old gods of north and Neck . . ."

 

   

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1 hour ago, Megorova said:

Fine. :cheers:

Megrova, you are welcome to be a part of this discussion.  I know you have a lot to say on a variety of subjects.  I count at least six or more in your last few posts.  You know what to do about it.   Open another OP to get a full hearing and have your say.   I want to keep this OP more tightly focused.     

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, alienarea said:

Finally, the Tower of Joy. Howland is riding there with Ned's other close friends, though they are not known as the best fighters, they know how to handle their weapons. Would Howland be one of them, if he didn't know how to use his weapons?

Ned doesn't participate in tourneys because he doesn't want to show off how skilled he is. I guess it is a similar case with Howland. If he weren't skilled enough to deal with the squires in jousting, how would he be able to save Ned from Arthur Dayne?

Well we know that Howland fought beside Theo Wull and the mountain clans during Robert's Rebellion.  So he's not a coward and has some skill at arms to survive up to and including the events at the ToJ.  He must also know how to ride a horse.

Meera characterizes the crannogman this way:

Quote

A Storm of Swords - Bran II

"No," said Bran. "I haven't. And if I have it doesn't matter. Sometimes Old Nan would tell the same story she'd told before, but we never minded, if it was a good story. Old stories are like old friends, she used to say. You have to visit them from time to time."

"That's true." Meera walked with her shield on her back, pushing an occasional branch out of the way with her frog spear. Just when Bran began to think that she wasn't going to tell the story after all, she began, "Once there was a curious lad who lived in the Neck. He was small like all crannogmen, but brave and smart and strong as well. He grew up hunting and fishing and climbing trees, and learned all the magics of my people."

Quote

A Storm of Swords - Bran II

"The lad knew the magics of the crannogs," she continued, "but he wanted more. Our people seldom travel far from home, you know. We're a small folk, and our ways seem queer to some, so the big people do not always treat us kindly. But this lad was bolder than most, and one day when he had grown to manhood he decided he would leave the crannogs and visit the Isle of Faces."

Quote

A Storm of Swords - Bran II

"Harrenhal!" Bran knew at once. "It was Harrenhal!"

Meera smiled. "Was it? Beneath its walls he saw tents of many colors, bright banners cracking in the wind, and knights in mail and plate on barded horses. He smelled roasting meats, and heard the sound of laughter and the blare of heralds' trumpets. A great tourney was about to commence, and champions from all over the land had come to contest it. The king himself was there, with his son the dragon prince. The White Swords had come, to welcome a new brother to their ranks. The storm lord was on hand, and the rose lord as well. The great lion of the rock had quarreled with the king and stayed away, but many of his bannermen and knights attended all the same. The crannogman had never seen such pageantry, and knew he might never see the like again. Part of him wanted nothing so much as to be part of it."

Bran knew that feeling well enough. When he'd been little, all he had ever dreamed of was being a knight. But that had been before he fell and lost his legs.

I don't see a coward here but someone who was taken unawares by three teenagers, knocked to the ground and set upon before he could defend himself. 

Edited by LynnS

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Posted (edited)
Quote

A Storm of Swords - Bran II

"Or not." Jojen's face was dappled with green shadows. "Prince Bran has heard that tale a hundred times, I'm sure."

"No," said Bran. "I haven't. And if I have it doesn't matter. Sometimes Old Nan would tell the same story she'd told before, but we never minded, if it was a good story. Old stories are like old friends, she used to say. You have to visit them from time to time."

"That's true." Meera walked with her shield on her back, pushing an occasional branch out of the way with her frog spear. Just when Bran began to think that she wasn't going to tell the story after all, she began, "Once there was a curious lad who lived in the Neck. He was small like all crannogmen, but brave and smart and strong as well. He grew up hunting and fishing and climbing trees, and learned all the magics of my people."

Is Howland an old friend that Bran has to visit from time to time?

Edited by LynnS

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2 hours ago, alienarea said:

Though riding skills are probably more important in jousting than knowing how to hold the lance, you still need a basic understanding of how to hold the lance, where to point it, and how the impact of hitting your opponent feels. Without having jousted before, Lyanna could not have unseated the three squires.

Lyanna practiced at tilting at rings which is the exercise you do to practice your aim with the lance, so she would know how tot hold and aim a lance.

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1 minute ago, direpupy said:

Lyanna practiced at tilting at rings which is the exercise you do to practice your aim with the lance, so she would know how tot hold and aim a lance.

Also I think she had some warging blood, so the horse could have guided the lance.

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, direpupy said:

Lyanna practiced at tilting at rings which is the exercise you do to practice your aim with the lance, so she would know how tot hold and aim a lance.

I can't find anything about tilting at rings or running at rings in the books or the world book or Lyanna's wiki.  What is the source?

All I find is Bran possibly having experience with tilting at quintains. 

Quote

A Clash of Kings - Bran II

Long before the first pale fingers of light pried apart Bran's shutters, his eyes were open.

There were guests in Winterfell, visitors come for the harvest feast. This morning they would be tilting at quintains in the yard. Once that prospect would have filled him with excitement, but that was before.

Not now. The Walders would break lances with the squires of Lord Manderly's escort, but Bran would have no part of it. He must play the prince in his father's solar. "Listen, and it may be that you will learn something of what lordship is all about," Maester Luwin had said.

 Even if Lyanna tilted at rings, it doesn't prepare her for making a blow with a lance or taking one; which is far more dangerous.

Edited by LynnS

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3 hours ago, direpupy said:

Lyanna practiced at tilting at rings which is the exercise you do to practice your aim with the lance, so she would know how tot hold and aim a lance.

Can you please provide a quote?

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Posted (edited)
3 hours ago, Wunjō said:

Also I think she had some warging blood, so the horse could have guided the lance.

Are you implying the warged horse held the lance? That would have looked a bit suspicious, wouldn't it?

Edited by alienarea
typo

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Posted (edited)
8 hours ago, Wunjō said:

Also I think she had some warging blood, so the horse could have guided the lance.

Do you mean wolf blood?

Quote

A Game of Thrones - Arya II

"It has a name, does it?" Her father sighed. "Ah, Arya. You have a wildness in you, child. 'The wolf blood,' my father used to call it. Lyanna had a touch of it, and my brother Brandon more than a touch. It brought them both to an early grave." Arya heard sadness in his voice; he did not often speak of his father, or of the brother and sister who had died before she was born. "Lyanna might have carried a sword, if my lord father had allowed it. You remind me of her sometimes. You even look like her."

Or do you believe she could skinchange her horse?  If so, why?

Edited by LynnS

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11 hours ago, LynnS said:

I can't find anything about tilting at rings or running at rings in the books or the world book or Lyanna's wiki.  What is the source?

The wiki claims it's in the world of ice and fire - I've tried to track it down a few times with no success. I wonder if it's an error based on Daena, who is very similar in some ways.

13 hours ago, Wunjō said:

Also I think she had some warging blood, so the horse could have guided the lance.

There must be something in this - if we're constantly being told jousting is mainly about being a skilled rider, then the horse must be shifted about to help land a blow, or avoid an attack. Loras does it, and he's the best, so it must be a good tactic.

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43 minutes ago, Springwatch said:

There must be something in this - if we're constantly being told jousting is mainly about being a skilled rider, then the horse must be shifted about to help land a blow, or avoid an attack. Loras does it, and he's the best, so it must be a good tactic.

I keep thinking that if she skinchanges the horse; she will not have a consciousness present in her own body to ride the horse at all. 

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29 minutes ago, LynnS said:

I keep thinking that if she skinchanges the horse; she will not have a consciousness present in her own body to ride the horse at all. 

And, even a skinchanged horse couldn't hold a lance.

 

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1 hour ago, Springwatch said:

There must be something in this - if we're constantly being told jousting is mainly about being a skilled rider, then the horse must be shifted about to help land a blow, or avoid an attack. Loras does it, and he's the best, so it must be a good tactic.

I don't recall Loras to have any skinchanging abilities. What I recall is that he uses a mare in heat to irritate his opponents horse. Which is a bit different.

 

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Posted (edited)
32 minutes ago, alienarea said:

And, even a skinchanged horse couldn't hold a lance.

I don't think that's what he meant. :) Based on what we know about skinchanging or warging, Lyanna wouldn't be able to hold a lance.  The problem is that a backstory has been built on words like centaur and wolf blood.

Quote

A Dance with Dragons - The Turncloak

The lantern light in her eyes made them seem as if they were afire. "Brandon was fostered at Barrowton with old Lord Dustin, the father of the one I'd later wed, but he spent most of his time riding the Rills. He loved to ride. His little sister took after him in that. A pair of centaurs, those two. And my lord father was always pleased to play host to the heir to Winterfell. My father had great ambitions for House Ryswell. He would have served up my maidenhead to any Stark who happened by, but there was no need. Brandon was never shy about taking what he wanted. I am old now, a dried-up thing, too long a widow, but I still remember the look of my maiden's blood on his cock the night he claimed me. I think Brandon liked the sight as well. A bloody sword is a beautiful thing, yes. It hurt, but it was a sweet pain.

 Wolf blood implying a warging/skinchanging ability.  If this is true for Lyanna who only has a little wolf blood; why then didn't Brandon win his joust at the tourney?  

We forget that skinchanging and warging start out as something that is not in the control of the warg and it occurs while sleeping.  Conscious control only occurs when the 3rd eye is opened.  But that still leaves the body without a consciousness. With Bran he needed Meera, Jojen and Hodor to bring him back to his body or he would be gone for days at a time.  Varamyr had to be sent to skinchangers to learn how to control his power.  I don't see how this have gone unnoticed about Lyanna.  

Just about everyone with riding skill in the books is called a centaur.  But this isn't enough for a 14 year old girl.  Even if she practiced riding at rings on occasion.  Delivering a blow at speed with a lance is just as likely to knock her off her horse as receiving one.   She can't be so accurate to avoid her opponents lance, even a striking blow in three jousts.  It's very dangerous for her and I don't think she has enough 'wolf blood' in her temperment to even attempt it.  Nor do I think her brothers would allow it.  Nor would Howland.

The only explanation for me is something already on the page, with Bran and Hodor at the Cave of Skulls.  Where Hodor summons Bran for help and receives a tremendous power-up.  Bran becomes the Knight of the Laughing Tree joined with Howland. "An old friend he must visit from time to time."

I won't go into it here, but there is yet another narrative about the tourney involving Rhaegar's motives in the World Book.

A Search of Ice and Fire | 'year of the false spring'

 

 

Edited by LynnS

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23 minutes ago, alienarea said:

I don't recall Loras to have any skinchanging abilities. What I recall is that he uses a mare in heat to irritate his opponents horse. Which is a bit different.

True. Two points though: first, there's nothing unexpected about Loras's victory - he's got talent, and if he's anything like his brother Garlan, he trains hard. Neither Howland nor Lyanna have that background, so we've got to suspect a bit of supernatural advantage. Second, he's trained his horse to move sideways in response to a leg signal - we see it before the tilt, written in strange way so we can't miss it: The boy from Highgarden did something with his legs, and his horse pranced sideways, nimble as a dancer. This must be the skilled riding that wins you tourneys (otherwise, if you'd asked me, the best thing for a tourney horse would be a stable, predictable platform, and the skill would be handling the lance).

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1 hour ago, LynnS said:

I keep thinking that if she skinchanges the horse; she will not have a consciousness present in her own body to ride the horse at all. 

Right, so it must be something less than that. There is something less, because Varamyr never gets eaten by his snow bear, no matter where his conscious mind is.

What Lyanna had - we don't know exactly - but gave the impression that horse and rider acted as one, earning the label centaur. And because she's a Stark, it also reminds me of Bran's wish to be a fighting knight, together with Hodor, which did sort of come true.

4 minutes ago, LynnS said:

Just about everyone with riding skill in the books is called a centaur. 

Not quite!

4 minutes ago, LynnS said:

But this isn't enough for a 14 year old girl.  Even if she practiced riding at rings on occasion.  Delivering a blow at speed with a lance is just as likely to knock her off her horse as receiving one.   She can't be so accurate to avoid her opponents lance, even a striking blow in three jousts.  It's very dangerous for her and I don't think she has enough 'wolf blood' in her temperment to even attempt it.  Nor do I think her brothers would allow it.  Nor would Howland.

I want to agree - it all seems a bit dreamy to me. But as far as mass and muscle go - Loras is very lacking, and so was young Barristan. :dunno:

I'm going to say: if there were rings and a quintain at Winterfell, Lyanna would have used them a lot. But I also remember that he father wouldn't allow her to carry a sword, so there were limits.

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1 minute ago, Springwatch said:

I'm going to say: if there were rings and a quintain at Winterfell, Lyanna would have used them a lot. But I also remember that he father wouldn't allow her to carry a sword, so there were limits.

Why is it so important that Lyanna is the KotLT at this point.  Does it still serve the RLJ narrative?  The whole purpose of which was to get Jon into the PWIP/AA driver's seat.  Is that even true anymore? 

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Posted (edited)

I think that underneath Meera's story there is a story about Bran and the unintended consequences of using magic.  If Bran had not intervened to help Howland, he wouldn't have entered the lists or won the day.  But because Bran changes that, because he's an 8 year old boy with the power to become a knight for one day; he does  change that outcome.  What follows is all the turmoil and strife that stems directly from that event.  Bran is the cause of it.  These are the unintended consequences for Bran to use his power this way that he doesn't fully understand..  

Hodor is a case in point.  Bran would never mean to hurt Hodor but the unintended consequence is that Hodor becomes simple-minded.

Edited by LynnS

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