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Heresy 237 The Ballad of Trouserless Bob Baratheon


Black Crow

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8 minutes ago, LynnS said:

 

Rhaegar may have been obsessed with prophesy; but he couldn't avoid the game of thrones.

 

Exactly, the political dimension is indeed a favourite theme of mine, but it comes from text like this and from the World Book.

That's not to say that there isn't a mystical element, but if Rhaegar was pursuing his own family's Musgrave Ritual, distractions like a Baratheon/Stark alliance were a definite threat to that goal - and his own expectations of sitting on the Iron Throne.

But as always there were unintended consequences

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A Feast for Crows - Jaime I

Unless my brother murdered Varys too, and left his corpse to rot beneath the castle. Down there, it might be years before his bones were found. Jaime had led a dozen guards below, with torches and ropes and lanterns. For hours they had groped through twisting passages, narrow crawl spaces, hidden doors, secret steps, and shafts that plunged down into utter blackness. Seldom had he felt so utterly a cripple. A man takes much for granted when he has two hands. Ladders, for an instance. Even crawling did not come easy; not for nought do they speak of hands and knees. Nor could he hold a torch and climb, as others could.

And all for naught. They found only darkness, dust, and rats. And dragons, lurking down below. He remembered the sullen orange glow of the coals in the iron dragon's mouth. The brazier warmed a chamber at the bottom of a shaft where half a dozen tunnels met. On the floor he'd found a scuffed mosaic of the three-headed dragon of House Targaryen done in tiles of black and red. I know you, Kingslayer, the beast seemed to be saying. I have been here all the time, waiting for you to come to me. And it seemed to Jaime that he knew that voice, the iron tones that had once belonged to Rhaegar, Prince of Dragonstone.

The day had been windy when he said farewell to Rhaegar, in the yard of the Red Keep. The prince had donned his night-black armor, with the three-headed dragon picked out in rubies on his breastplate. "Your Grace," Jaime had pleaded, "let Darry stay to guard the king this once, or Ser Barristan. Their cloaks are as white as mine."

Prince Rhaegar shook his head. "My royal sire fears your father more than he does our cousin Robert. He wants you close, so Lord Tywin cannot harm him. I dare not take that crutch away from him at such an hour."

 

Iron tones?  I had no idea that Rhaegar spoke in anything other than melancholy tones.

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24 minutes ago, Black Crow said:

That's not to say that there isn't a mystical element, but if Rhaegar was pursuing his own family's Musgrave Ritual, distractions like a Baratheon/Stark alliance were a definite threat to that goal - and his own expectations of sitting on the Iron Throne.

In a ven diagram, Rhaegar would fall in the intersection between want my dragons and crown prince of the realm.  They are not mutually exclusive.

This is how it was supposed to be:

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A Storm of Swords - Daenerys III

Ser Jorah had no answer. He only smiled, and touched her hair, so lightly. It was enough.

That night she dreamt that she was Rhaegar, riding to the Trident. But she was mounted on a dragon, not a horse. When she saw the Usurper's rebel host across the river they were armored all in ice, but she bathed them in dragonfire and they melted away like dew and turned the Trident into a torrent. Some small part of her knew that she was dreaming, but another part exulted. This is how it was meant to be. The other was a nightmare, and I have only now awakened.

 

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4 hours ago, Black Crow said:

Exactly, the political dimension is indeed a favourite theme of mine, but it comes from text like this and from the World Book.

That's not to say that there isn't a mystical element, but if Rhaegar was pursuing his own family's Musgrave Ritual, distractions like a Baratheon/Stark alliance were a definite threat to that goal - and his own expectations of sitting on the Iron Throne.

But as always there were unintended consequences

The suspected political dimension in the Worldbook concerned the suspicion that Rhaegar was looking to undermine Aerys, and curry the favor of the assembled Lords.  In fact his crowning of Lyanna was supposedly seen by many, not as an attempt to woo Lyanna, but instead as an attempt to flatter and win over the Starks for himself.

Which makes sense.   In Ivanhoe, where GRRM probably drew his greatest inspiration for his tourneys of love and beauty, Cedric the Saxon's family was very honored that the mystery knight crowned his step-daughter, even though she was betrothed to another man.  Cedric thought it was a show of honor and respect to his Saxon family.  In addition, Prince John was trying to get the mystery knight to crown the daughter of another family in a transparent attempt to kiss up to them.

Kidnapping the daughter of a family to try and block a marriage alliance, however, is a fairly idiotic political move.  It also seems to beg the question that if Rhaegar was doing this to help protect his family, why did he leave Aerys out of the loop?  

I still heavily lean towards the idea that everything Rhaegar was doing (and not doing) was in preparation for the upcoming Battle for the Dawn, that he believed he needed to prepare his infant son for.  

One thing that we're specifically told about Rhaegar is that he is "single minded".  

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19 minutes ago, Frey family reunion said:

I still heavily lean towards the idea that everything Rhaegar was doing (and not doing) was in preparation for the upcoming Battle for the Dawn, that he believed he needed to prepare his infant son for.  

One thing that we're specifically told about Rhaegar is that he is "single minded".  

Exactly so, but...

To Mel [and to too many readers] preparing for the Battle for the Dawn [is it really going to be a good thing?] is producing Azor Ahai, sticking a flaming sword in his hand, winding him up and watching him go turn the world into a fiery hell in which only the elect as "saved".

Rhaegar, as we know read books, he presumably got a lot deeper into the Mystery and may therefore have known more than was good for him about the Stark links to Winter and Bobby Baratheon's background. I still find it very interesting that having polished off the Starks, father and son, Aerys then demanded young Trouserless Bob, who was patently innocent - or at least nor even he would suspect him of being the Knight of the Laughing Tree.

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4 hours ago, LynnS said:

I'm wondering about Bran's dream of spring and if his presence at the tourney is marked by a ripple back effect causing the false spring.  Is there someone who dreams of winter?

Well, they held the tourney because they thought it was Spring.

Remember when I suggested that the tourney was ground zero for when the time loop began to circle in reverse? The return to winter is evidence, though it wasn't the first noticeable event to reoccur. All of the things that went along with the Knight of the Laughing Tree were the first reversals, so it would seem that reversing time was the old gods answer to Howland's prayer to "win". Not just for Howland to win in the tourney, but how to win what the tourney represented: a winnable rebellion.

Tourneys are playing at war, but they also provide cover for groups of people to conspire against the king. The wedding tourney at Whitewalls was grounds for the Second Blackfyre rebellion. The host - old Lord Butterwell (who had been Hand of the King) married a very young Lady Frey signifying an alliance. Egg said to Dunk, "Some words are wind. Some words are treason. This is a traitor's tourney, ser." I'm sure King Aerys felt the same way about the Harrenhal tourney and you'd think the diehard Targaryen loyalist named Bloodraven would have done whatever he could to prevent a rebellion. So why was the stage set for a winnable rebellion? Did the old gods override their greenseer? Or is this evidence that Bran was the engineer of the reversed time loop?

 

4 hours ago, LynnS said:

Iron tones?  I had no idea that Rhaegar spoke in anything other than melancholy tones.

Iron makes me think of swords, so could this description of Rhaegar be a nod to a warrior-like nature? Maybe our picture of Rhaegar as being this feminine lute player is all wrong? 

37 minutes ago, LynnS said:

When did Lyanna's betrothal take place.  Can anyone verify?

My best guess is prior to the tourney at Harrenhal.

 

34 minutes ago, LynnS said:

And how long between Harrenhall and Brandon's marriage.

My opinion is that Brandon planned to marry after the tourney in January of 282.

 

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7 minutes ago, Melifeather said:

Or is this evidence that Bran was the engineer of the reversed time loop?

Is this also evidence?

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A Storm of Swords - Daenerys III

Ser Jorah had no answer. He only smiled, and touched her hair, so lightly. It was enough.

That night she dreamt that she was Rhaegar, riding to the Trident. But she was mounted on a dragon, not a horse. When she saw the Usurper's rebel host across the river they were armored all in ice, but she bathed them in dragonfire and they melted away like dew and turned the Trident into a torrent. Some small part of her knew that she was dreaming, but another part exulted. This is how it was meant to be. The other was a nightmare, and I have only now awakened.

Never mind the dominant voice for a moment;  was this a shadow of Rhaegar's future, an alternate timeline that was altered?  Rhaegar was confident that he would win at the Trident:

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A Feast for Crows - Jaime I

Rhaegar had put his hand on Jaime's shoulder. "When this battle's done I mean to call a council. Changes will be made. I meant to do it long ago, but . . . well, it does no good to speak of roads not taken. We shall talk when I return."

Those were the last words Rhaegar Targaryen ever spoke to him. Outside the gates an army had assembled, whilst another descended on the Trident. So the Prince of Dragonstone mounted up and donned his tall black helm, and rode forth to his doom.

He was more right than he knew. When the battle was done, there were changes made. "Aerys thought no harm could come to him if he kept me near," he told his father's corpse. "Isn't that amusing?" Lord Tywin seemed to think so; his smile was wider than before. He seems to enjoy being dead.

 

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16 minutes ago, LynnS said:

A Storm of Swords - Daenerys III

Ser Jorah had no answer. He only smiled, and touched her hair, so lightly. It was enough.

That night she dreamt that she was Rhaegar, riding to the Trident. But she was mounted on a dragon, not a horse. When she saw the Usurper's rebel host across the river they were armored all in ice, but she bathed them in dragonfire and they melted away like dew and turned the Trident into a torrent. Some small part of her knew that she was dreaming, but another part exulted. This is how it was meant to be. The other was a nightmare, and I have only now awakened.

Great passage! Yes, Daenerys was referring explicitly to Jorah's comment that Robert had made himself king. She also said:

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"He was no true king," Dany said scornfully. "He did no justice. Justice . . . that's what kings are for."

Daenerys vision was not a future premonition, but a retelling of Robert's Rebellion if Rhaegar had had dragons.

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Speaking of if Rhaegar had had dragons....I've said it before and I'll say it again. Somebody worked very hard at preventing Aerys from hatching dragons - and he tried alot. I think Rhaella's multiple "miscarriages" and "stillbirths" were attempts. Maybe another thing that Bran did? :dunno:

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5 hours ago, Black Crow said:

That's not to say that there isn't a mystical element, but if Rhaegar was pursuing his own family's Musgrave Ritual, distractions like a Baratheon/Stark alliance were a definite threat to that goal - and his own expectations of sitting on the Iron Throne.

I also think that Lyanna and Robert would have been a good match in spite of her misgivings.  For someone to dump a cup over her brother's head; I don't think she would have up with much BS from Robert.

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A Game of Thrones - Eddard VII

The mirth curdled on Robert's face. "The woman tried to forbid me to fight in the melee. She's sulking in the castle now, damn her. Your sister would never have shamed me like that."

"You never knew Lyanna as I did, Robert," Ned told him. "You saw her beauty, but not the iron underneath. She would have told you that you have no business in the melee."

"You too?" The king frowned. "You are a sour man, Stark. Too long in the north, all the juices have frozen inside you. Well, mine are still running." He slapped his chest to prove it.

 

And she would have put him straight.  He would never have degenerated into the fool he became. 

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Circling back to Dr Strange again...in Avengers Infinity War he said:

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Doctor Strange I went forward in time to view alternate futures. To see all the possible outcomes of the coming conflict.

Star-Lord : How many did you see? 

Doctor Strange : Fourteen million, six hundred and five.

Star-Lord : How many did we win?

Doctor Strange : One.

 

 

I think Bran saw all the possible outcomes and chose the one where they "won". Unfortunately it was also the one where Lyanna died.

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32 minutes ago, Melifeather said:

Circling back to Dr Strange again...in Avengers Infinity War he said:

 

I think Bran saw all the possible outcomes and chose the one where they "won". Unfortunately it was also the one where Lyanna died.

Have you watched Loki? Worth it for the shenanigans of the TVA

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1 hour ago, Melifeather said:

Iron makes me think of swords, so could this description of Rhaegar be a nod to a warrior-like nature? Maybe our picture of Rhaegar as being this feminine lute player is all wrong? 

Yah,  I'm definately getting a different picture of Rhaegar.  Iron tones makes me think of iron will or determination as FFR puts it.

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Speaking of if Rhaegar had had dragons....I've said it before and I'll say it again. Somebody worked very hard at preventing Aerys from hatching dragons - and he tried alot. I think Rhaella's multiple "miscarriages" and "stillbirths" were attempts. Maybe another thing that Bran did?

I don't know if Bran caused.  (strike that las) - Elia may have just had a frail constitution to start.

I feel pretty strongly that Bran 'happened" at the tourney and had his day as a Knight.  He said it would be enough.

In a private conversation. it was pointed out to me that Howland didn't actually refuse the offer of a horse and armour.  He just doesn't give them an answer.  He goes and prays on it to the gods on the Isle of Faces.   It was suggested that if Howland didn't think he could win the day', he would be shamed even further.  Unless he had an ace up his sleeve.  So he may well have taken the Starks up on their offer.  We just don't know what he said. 

What was changed was that Howland won the day.  What's ambiguous about the story Meera tells is that Howland never names the knight and never takes credit for himself.

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3 minutes ago, LynnS said:

What was changed was that Howland won the day.

Yes. Exactly. But I cannot stress enough how the story of the Knight of the Laughing Tree was an allegory. Did it detail factual events? Probably. Is there a second meaning. Absolutely. The "way to win" was a way to win a rebellion against the king. Why do you think the books highlight so many Blackfyre Rebellions? It sets up the precedent that repeated attempts to overthrow the Targaryen regime all failed. But the Harrenhal tourney changed all that, and suddenly a rebellion is successful and it was due to a reversal of historic events.

16 minutes ago, Tucu said:

Have you watched Loki? Worth it for the shenanigans of the TVA

Not yet, but I want to! I love the Loki character!

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1 hour ago, LynnS said:

I also think that Lyanna and Robert would have been a good match in spite of her misgivings.  For someone to dump a cup over her brother's head; I don't think she would have up with much BS from Robert.

And she would have put him straight.  He would never have degenerated into the fool he became. 

This circles back to the OP. The fact that Trouserless Bob went down so far obscures the very real promise dashed by the abduction and killing of Lyanna

... and we still don't really know what Rugen [or Varys] has been up to for so long.

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There's something to the story of King Torrhen Stark - the king who knelt - and his brother Brandon who offered to cross the Trident at night and slay Aegon the Conqueror's and his sister's dragons. Isn't it said that he planned to use weirwood shafted arrows? The vision that Bran sees of the Winterfell heartree included, "A dark-eyed youth, pale and fierce, sliced three branches off the weirwood and shaped them into arrows." Using the weirwoods to see all possible futures is using the trees as a weapon. 

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