Heresy 237 The Ballad of Trouserless Bob Baratheon

[Melifeather]

6 minutes ago, LynnS said:

What did Martin say about the underlying  magical cause for the season?  Is there an SSM?

Quote

 

SSM July 27, 2008

[What is the cycle of a year? Why do they count years when seasons are strange?]

Twelve moon tuns to a year, as on earth. Even on our earth, years have nothing to do with the seasons, or with the cycles of the moon. A year is a measure of a solar cycle, of how long it takes the earth to make one complete revolution around the sun. The same is true for the world of Westeros. Seasons do not come into it.

[Are the seasons irregular only in Westeros or also in the eastern continent?]

The eastern continent (Essos) is further south than Westeros, and feels the North of the great sweep of the eastern sweep of the eastern lands is a huge ocean, the Shivering Sea. Only Westeros extends to the far north.

 

Quote

 

SSM July 12, 1999

[Summary of initial mail: The people in the books count their ages in years. These seem to have the same lengths as our years. But ours come from the seasons we have: The seasons in the seven kingdoms are much longer. How do they come to this way of counting time?]

Years are not based on seasons, even in the real world. They are based on how long it takes the earth to revolve around the sun... i.e., on astronomy, the position of the sun and moon and stars. Ancient monuments like Stonehenge and Newgrange served astronomical purposes as well as religious, and helped measure the passage of years, the summer and winter solstices, etc.

 

Quote

 

SSM December 28, 1998

LONG SEASONS

Yes, "The Hedge Knight" takes place within the Seven Kingdoms. The continent Dany is crossing is indeed larger than Westeros.

The idea of "long" seasons is a staple in SF and fantasy and has been for many years. I used it myself twenty years ago in a short story called "Bitterblooms."

 

 

Quote

 

SSM June 2002

Will they be able to support their armies with larger groups of archers (say, thousands of archers) in an effort to withstand or prevent attacks from flying dragons?

If they can find thousands of archers... depends on the season, of course...

 

 

Why would the season matter with regards to archers shooting down dragons?)

 

[LynnS]

Ok hadn't seen those before.  Doesn't he also say that the cause isn't geological or astronomical in nature. that magic is the underlying cause

[Black Crow]

15 minutes ago, LynnS said:

Ok hadn't seen those before.  Doesn't he also say that the cause isn't geological or astronomical in nature. that magic is the underlying cause

Yes, I can't quote it, but he was quite firm about that in response to quite a lot of theories based on astrophysics.

[Tucu]

38 minutes ago, Melifeather said:

 

 

Why would the season matter with regards to archers shooting down dragons?)

 

Winter is probably not a great time to field large armies. Archers would also have trouble due to rain and ice.

[Melifeather]

3 minutes ago, Tucu said:

Winter is probably not a great time to field large armies. Archers would also have trouble due to rain and ice.

Season seem to be important. Tourneys are played in Spring. Battles are usually in Summer and Autumn. Stannis is trying to wage war in Winter while his enemy is holed up behind the safety of Winterfell.

[LynnS]

21 minutes ago, Black Crow said:

Yes, I can't quote it, but he was quite firm about that in response to quite a lot of theories based on astrophysics.

It must be an interview then.  I think we are getting a bit a clue about the underlying magical cause with the false spring.  Only we are seeing the effect and not the cause.  So if Bran's magic (the cause) ripples back in time, the false spring is the effect. If the false spring manifests not only because of Bran's presence but because he is 'dreaming of spring"; then there must be an old power waking that dreams of winter. 

[LynnS]

20 hours ago, Black Crow said:

Yes, I can't quote it, but he was quite firm about that in response to quite a lot of theories based on astrophysics.

Alright.  I'm done with the other can of worms.  I was never going to get past the Lyanna wall.

[Black Crow]

On 7/14/2021 at 9:14 AM, LynnS said:

Iron tones?  I had no idea that Rhaegar spoke in anything other than melancholy tones.

And all for naught. They found only darkness, dust, and rats. And dragons, lurking down below. He remembered the sullen orange glow of the coals in the iron dragon's mouth. The brazier warmed a chamber at the bottom of a shaft where half a dozen tunnels met. On the floor he'd found a scuffed mosaic of the three-headed dragon of House Targaryen done in tiles of black and red. I know you, Kingslayer, the beast seemed to be saying. I have been here all the time, waiting for you to come to me. And it seemed to Jaime that he knew that voice, the iron tones that had once belonged to Rhaegar, Prince of Dragonstone.

The day had been windy when he said farewell to Rhaegar, in the yard of the Red Keep. The prince had donned his night-black armor, with the three-headed dragon picked out in rubies on his breastplate. "Your Grace," Jaime had pleaded, "let Darry stay to guard the king this once, or Ser Barristan. Their cloaks are as white as mine."

Prince Rhaegar shook his head. "My royal sire fears your father more than he does our cousin Robert. He wants you close, so Lord Tywin cannot harm him. I dare not take that crutch away from him at such an hour."

 

Quite, this is neither a love-struck swain not a bookish poet. He's engaged in the serious business of defending the crown and the man who wears it - from multiple threats.

If Rhaegar couldn't be found earlier it wasn't because he was wallowing oblivious in Lyanna's bed but because he was engaged in something far more serious. Sure he was obsessed with the Prince that was Promised etc. but that was never going to happen if he didn't sort the present little local difficulty

 

Just an odd little thought, who was feeding that brazier in the darkness ?

[Melifeather]

Since Robert Baratheon is the subject at hand, I'd like to discuss some of the parallels I've noticed between him and the Smiling Knight as well as to the Soiled Knight, Arys Oakheart.

To begin with, geographically, the location of Storms End is a mirrored reflection of Old Oak, seat of House Oakheart. And you know how I believe in those parallels!

One of the titled chapters seems to have echoes of things that Robert may have done in the past. The Soiled Knight chapter describes a secret affair between Arianne Martell and Arys Oakheart. Is it possible that Cersei played a part in helping her father manipulate Robert well before the rebellion? Why would Robert be interested in conspiring with Cersei? Quite frankly for power, and Tywin may have even suggested it through Jon Arryn. We keep hearing that they went to war for "the children". Was this part of the hype? Tywin wanted Aerys dead and he wanted Rhaegar punished for not marrying Cersei, so he found someone with a plausible blood-claim to the Iron Throne. Robert has Targaryen blood via his grandmother Rhaelle.

Robert is young, strong, charismatic, and had the ability to make enemies into friends, but he could easily fit the description of the Smiling Knight too. We'll get to more of that in a minute, but lets look at this from Tywin's point of view first. Robert not only had some Targaryen blood, he also had northern allies. There was just this little inconvenient marriage proposal to Lyanna and Tywin wanted HIS daughter to be Queen. He needed to keep the allies, but get Lyanna out of the way. Her death was the perfect solution, because it unified the north against Rhaegar. 

When it comes to kidnapping, Ygritte and Arianne have something in common. They both told the story that when the Red Wanderer is in the Moonmaid it is a good time to steal a woman.

The Moonmaid is a constellation, and the Red Wanderer is one of seven planets named the Seven Wanderers. Colored red like our planet Mars, it is associated with the Smith from the Faith of the Seven. Among the Free Folk, the Red Wanderer is also known as the Thief. What Westerosi man best represents the Smith, who is symbolically like Mars the warrior god, and carried a war hammer?

The symbolic nature of the number seven intrigues me, because it could connect the Faith to the kidnapper's plan. There are rumors about there being seven of "Rhaegar's Rubies". While it's known that Rhaegar's armor had his sigil wrought in rubies, surely it took more than seven to make the design? The Elder Brother from the Quiet Isle hinted that the Faith may be looking for seven humans that represent the seven facets of their Faith: Father, Mother, Warrior, Maiden, Smith, Crone, and Stranger. He said, 

Quote

"... The battle was long leagues from here, but the river is tireless and patient. Six have been found. We are all waiting for the seventh.” 

If Robert was their Smith, who were the rest?

After Catelyn kidnapped Tyrion, Tywin called his banners and sent out Ser Gregor Clegane to raid the riverlands, but curiously he and his men rode under cover of night, without banners:
 

Quote

Thank the gods for old Lord Hoster, then. Tywin Lannister was as much fox as lion. If indeed he’d sent Ser Gregor to burn and pillage— and Ned did not doubt that he had— he’d taken care to see that he rode under cover of night, without banners, in the guise of a common brigand. Should Riverrun strike back, Cersei and her father would insist that it had been the Tullys who broke the king’s peace, not the Lannisters. The gods only knew what Robert would believe.

The raiding party led by Ser Gregor Clegane has many notable similarities with other groups both before and after his time. Prior to the Harrenhal Tourney the Kingswood Brotherhood attacked Elia and injured Ser Hightower. Its said that the motive was robbery, but I think their intention was to abduct Elia. After Gregor's raids, the Brotherhood Without Banners abducted Arya. As soon as Arya is identified as a noblewoman, they decide to hold her for ransom. Gregor's men were disguised as common "brigands" even though they were acting under Tywin's employ. The Brotherhood Without Banners were dispatched by Ned, but they continued to follow his commands even after both Hand and King were dead. The new regime considers the BWB to be outlaws. Considering what we know about Gregor's men and the BWB makes me wonder if the the Kingswood Brotherhood were also noblemen, but operating as outlaws?

I propose that some of the men from the detachment that King Aerys sent out (led by Arthur Dayne) to hunt down the Kingswood Brotherhood were actually secret members of the KWB! I suspect that the double agents (so to speak) included Jaime Lannister, Sumner Crakehall, Merrett Frey, Gregor Clegane, and Robert Baratheon. Of the "known" members of the Kingswood Brotherhood only Ulmer seems to be an actual person. Ulmer is an old man that got sent to the Wall as punishment for his "membership" in the group, but the rest are conveniently dead. Ulmer speaks about some of the other members, but I think it's all a charade.

Like I've theorized before, I think Lyanna and Howland left the Harrenhal Tourney together and ended up on the run, hiding from the search parties looking for the Knight of the Laughing Tree. Arya seemed to have repeated that journey while traveling with Lommy Greenhands. They escaped the attack at the fiery abandoned tower on the Gods Eye only to be captured by Gregor's men. Lommy couldn't walk due to a leg injury, so Raff the Sweetling killed him. I suspect that this is an echo of how Lyanna got separated from Howland - he must have gotten injured and couldn't walk.

Circling back to Rhaegar's armor....people must have seen Rhaegar and his men in order for Brandon to hear about Lyanna's abduction. But what if someone was just wearing a replica? Tywin was certainly wealthy enough to have a duplicate made. Robert may have been a fat King, but in his youth he was nicely built. Plus we have other instances of armor being used to fake people out and one in particular stands out.

Recall how Ser Arys got Myrcella out of Sandstone? He had one of his guards wear his armor and stand guard outside Myrcella door. Inside was her handmaiden, Rosamund made up to look like Myrcella. Arys then snuck Myrcella out of the castle and brought her to a well to meet up with Arianne Martell. The plan was to crown Myrcella, which I might point out would be the exact opposite if Tywin was plotting to prevent Lyanna from being crowned queen.

In the previous thread I described why I thought the innocuous sentence, "Quence found Allaquo abed with Sloey" was a hint that Rhaegar found Robert forcing himself upon Ashara, and I drew a connection between "Allaquo" and "alaqua" which is also known as "red gum". In our story a number of people chew red leaf which makes the chewer's saliva look like frothy blood and stains their mouth and teeth red. Catelyn Stark considered Masha Heddle’s smile to be a “bloody horror”. When Ned comes to Robert who was dying in his bed of blood, Ned has flashbacks of when he was with a dying Lyanna. He also notes Robert's appearance:

Quote

“Stinks,” Robert said. “The stink of death, don’t think I can’t smell it. Bastard did me good, eh? But I . . . I paid him back in kind, Ned. ” The king’s smile was as terrible as his wound, his teeth red. “Drove a knife right through his eye. Ask them if I didn’t. Ask them. ”

“Truly,” Lord Renly murmured. “We brought the carcass back with us, at my brother’s command. ”

“For the feast,” Robert whispered. “Now leave us. The lot of you. I need to speak with Ned. ”

Robert's mouth was terrible - might I say it was a "bloody horror"? To me the connection is there - the connection between Robert and the Smiling Knight.

I see a connection between Robert and another suit of armor: the giant armor made of stone that Bran saw with the visor filled with thick black blood. The open visor is dark, because the truth has yet to be revealed. In actuality, the stone giant’s identity is much bigger in scope than just one man. The Andals brought the Faith of the Seven to Westeros and the tradition of knighthood along with it. They take oaths to the Seven and they stand vigils. The knights are romanticized as having shining virtues, but we know they are capable of horrible atrocities.

Sandor Clegane demonstrates the ugly truth under the armor. He not only recognizes and accepts what he is, but he points out the hypocrisy of other knights, especially the Kingsguard. Robert should be included in the symbolism of the giant in armor even if readers don't think of him as being a knight, but don't forget he was an Andal and trained as a knight. His participation in Lyanna's abduction may have been a secret and as such would be included under the umbrella of the giant black armor, but I think he was only a willing pawn of the Faith. For their part, the Faith and it’s Citadel are the anonymous darkness and thick black blood inside the armor.

 

 

[LynnS]

4 hours ago, Black Crow said:

Just an odd little thought, who was feeding that brazier in the darkness ?

Varys no doubt.  Rhaegar knows the secret ways in and out of the dungeons? 

[LynnS]

On 7/14/2021 at 12:53 PM, Black Crow said:

Yes, I can't quote it, but he was quite firm about that in response to quite a lot of theories based on astrophysics.

From the Citadel:

Quote

Someone asked why the seasons are so messed up. Martin said he couldn't give an answer because that would be telling! He did say that there would eventually be an answer in one of the books, and the answer would be a fantasy (as opposed to a science fiction/science based) answer.

The Citadel: So Spake Martin - US Signing Tour (Ann Arbor, MI) (westeros.org)

George R.R. Martin Teases 'Winds of Winter' Ending, Says It Will Differ from HBO's 'Game of Thrones' Finale (esquire.com)

George R.R. Martin, Robert Redford to make Dark Winds series for AMC (winteriscoming.net)

 

[Melifeather]

3 hours ago, LynnS said:

From the Citadel:

The Citadel: So Spake Martin - US Signing Tour (Ann Arbor, MI) (westeros.org)

George R.R. Martin Teases 'Winds of Winter' Ending, Says It Will Differ from HBO's 'Game of Thrones' Finale (esquire.com)

George R.R. Martin, Robert Redford to make Dark Winds series for AMC (winteriscoming.net)

 

 

Quote

His least favorite to write is Bran, as he is the youngest so you have to look at every word to see if an eight year old would know it and every situation to try to see it as an eight year old would understand it, he is crippled and therefore more reactive than active, and his chapters have the most magic thus far. 

 

[Tucu]

Bran has a tendency to stay in the wolf for too long:

Quote

“How long?”

“Three days,” said Jojen. The boy had come up softfoot, or perhaps he had been there all along; in this blind black world, Bran could not have said. “We were afraid for you.”

Quote

No, he thought. No, I won’t.

<...>

“You were gone too long.”

<...>

“Remember that, Bran. Remember yourself, or the wolf will consume you. When you join, it is not enough to run and hunt and howl in Summer’s skin.”

Jojen, Meera and Hodor have to pull him back.

In his last chapter, Meera and Jojen are gone. He connects to the weirwoods without supervision and seems to do things that BR and Leaf considered impossible:

Quote

Watching the flames, Bran decided he would stay awake till Meera came back. Jojen would be unhappy, he knew, but Meera would be glad for him, He did not remember closing his eyes. … but then somehow he was back at Winterfell again, in the godswood looking down upon his father.

“Father.” Bran’s voice was a whisper in the wind, a rustle in the leaves. “Father, it’s me. It’s Bran. Brandon.” Eddard Stark lifted his head and looked long at the weirwood, frowning, but he did not speak.

Quote

The night was windless, the snow drifting straight down out of a cold black sky, yet the leaves of the heart tree were rustling his name. "Theon," they seemed to whisper, "Theon."

The old gods, he thought. They know me. They know my name. I was Theon of House Greyjoy. I was a ward of Eddard Stark, a friend and brother to his children. "Please." He fell to his knees. "A sword, that's all I ask. Let me die as Theon, not as Reek." Tears trickled down his cheeks, impossibly warm. "I was ironborn. A son … a son of Pyke, of the islands."

A leaf drifted down from above, brushed his brow, and landed in the pool. It floated on the water, red, five-fingered, like a bloody hand. "… Bran," the tree murmured.

Did Bran pull a Rip Van Winkle, Buck Rogers, Einstein's twin or Doctor Who and went "the long way'round" into the future? There is a long list of characters and mythical people going into a cave, drinking something and falling sleep for years.

 

[LynnS]

4 hours ago, Tucu said:

In his last chapter, Meera and Jojen are gone. He connects to the weirwoods without supervision and seems to do things that BR and Leaf considered impossible:

Can you post this section on the KOTLT thread?

[LynnS]

23 hours ago, Melifeather said:

His least favorite to write is Bran, as he is the youngest so you have to look at every word to see if an eight year old would know it and every situation to try to see it as an eight year old would understand it, he is crippled and therefore more reactive than active, and his chapters have the most magic thus far. 

Is this from the first or second interview?  Can you post it on the KOTLT thread?

[alienarea]

The mess just keeps getting bigger.

GRRM contributed to the app, which in my understanding doesn't mean he wrote all of it.

Next thing is we discuss what is canon.

In the end, it won't prove anything unless it is confirmed by GRRM.

He needs to complete one more book and answer some of the open questions.

Not related, but to the OP  :

Why was Robert Baratheon madly in love with Lyanna?

[LynnS]

1 hour ago, alienarea said:

Next thing is we discuss what is canon.

I won't be discussing it.  It's all canon and in the case where we have a narrator, we've been warned about unreliable narrators.  So canon will include truths, half-truths and fabrications.  I'm not concerned about the statement that Lyanna tilted at rings.

This cracked me up.  It was not what I expected.

Tilting Tourney (1958) - YouTube

The lesson is that it's much more difficult to hit a smaller target.  Howland is a smaller target and if he's employing a glamour to confuse what his opponents see; then he's even more difficult to hit with a 12 foot lance.  You need a steady eye.

 

[Black Crow]

10 hours ago, alienarea said:

Not related, but to the OP  :

Why was Robert Baratheon madly in love with Lyanna?

Context.

I don't recall Bob's age, but he was a young man. Maya's mother and presumably the others he got involved with back then and later were casual one night stands.

Lyanna was the real deal. Attractive in her own right [and an aristo], physically, mentally and in character - rode hard to hounds, definitely not a simpering needlewoman; she was, in short an ideal match with the strength of character to keep him in line, and moreover it was a match which was being set up for him. Potentially she was the love of his life - and then she was snatched away and that soured everything that followed.

[LynnS]

42 minutes ago, Black Crow said:

Context.

Would iron be preserved in a bog for 2 to 6 thousand years or would it corrode into nothing?

[LynnS]

Why does Ned regret that Lyanna wasn't trained with a sword such that he approves of Arya training with a sword?