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Heresy 237 The Ballad of Trouserless Bob Baratheon


Black Crow

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5 hours ago, Black Crow said:

The language used is significant.

You avenge a hurt afterwards. If we follow the accepted timeline. Trouserless Bob slew Rhaegar at the Trident, then Ned discovered the dying Lyanna down south at the end of the war, ie; Rhaegar died long before Lyanna so Bob didn't avenge her at the Trident.

This either means that the timeline is wrong and that Lyanna died much earlier, or at least that Ned and Bob believed that she had - which would explain the lack of furious energy to find her.

I've debated this issue ad naseum with the R+L=J crowd.  The whole sequence seems a bit wonky based on what we know now.

When you first read the books, and hear about Robert's vow to kill Rhaegar for "what he did to Lyanna", and Eddard's confirmation that Robert got vengeance on Lyanna at the Trident, the reader comes away thinking that Lyanna had died prior to the Trident.

But then we get a curveball when we learn that it was Lyanna's death after the Sack that brought Eddard and Robert back together.

None of the character's words or actions really line up with the idea that Lyanna was still being held hostage at the time of the Battle for the Trident.  Vows of vengeance for what happened to Lyanna, and retribution killings of Rhaegar's family looked on with approval by Robert doesn't seem to jive with the idea that Lyanna was still in enemy hands.

Nor does the fact that Eddard left King's Landing in a cold rage to finish the war in the South.  With no mention of also looking for Lyanna.

Eddard was mad over the fact that innocent children were killed on behalf of Robert, but not apparently over any danger it could pose to his sister.  That's not mentioned once, when Eddard and Robert argue over the Lannisters and their lack of honor.  

Logically, Robert should have been furious that Tywin had Elia and her children killed, especially what we know about the exchange of royal hostages and the need to keep the ones you have in your custody safe, to avoid retribution to the one's in enemy hands.  These issues are brought up in the later books.

Yet no mention of how Lyanna's fate would be in jeopardy over what happened to Elia and her children.

It's all very odd, unless of course we at least consider the possibility that Lyanna was no longer considered a hostage at the time of the Trident.  

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16 minutes ago, Frey family reunion said:

This either means that the timeline is wrong and that Lyanna died much earlier, or at least that Ned and Bob believed that she had - which would explain the lack of furious energy to find her.

There is one other possibility.  I think we have to ask ourselves why Robert was so convinced that Rhaegar had raped Lyanna hundreds of times?  And why did Robert beleive it was Rhaegar's actions that led to Lyanna's death, despite the fact that Rhaegar would have left Lyanna long before she actually died some time after the Sack?  ETA: specifically, Robert equates Rhaegar's lack of honor with Lyanna's death.

I think we have to at least consider the possibility that Robert learned that Lyana was pregnant, and he learned of this before the Trident.  Hence the vow to kill Rhaegar, and Robert's satisfaction at seeing Rhaegar's children dead at his feet.

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10 minutes ago, Frey family reunion said:

I've debated this issue ad naseum with the R+L=J crowd.  The whole sequence seems a bit wonky based on what we know now.

When you first read the books, and hear about Robert's vow to kill Rhaegar for "what he did to Lyanna", and Eddard's confirmation that Robert got vengeance on Lyanna at the Trident, the reader comes away thinking that Lyanna had died prior to the Trident.

But then we get a curveball when we learn that it was Lyanna's death after the Sack that brought Eddard and Robert back together.

None of the character's words or actions really line up with the idea that Lyanna was still being held hostage at the time of the Battle for the Trident.  Vows of vengeance for what happened to Lyanna, and retribution killings of Rhaegar's family looked on with approval by Robert doesn't seem to jive with the idea that Lyanna was still in enemy hands.

Nor does the fact that Eddard left King's Landing in a cold rage to finish the war in the South.  With no mention of also looking for Lyanna.

Eddard was mad over the fact that innocent children were killed on behalf of Robert, but not apparently over any danger it could pose to his sister.  That's not mentioned once, when Eddard and Robert argue over the Lannisters and their lack of honor.  

Logically, Robert should have been furious that Tywin had Elia and her children killed, especially what we know about the exchange of royal hostages and the need to keep the ones you have in your custody safe, to avoid retribution to the one's in enemy hands.  These issues are brought up in the later books.

Yet no mention of how Lyanna's fate would be in jeopardy over what happened to Elia and her children.

It's all very odd, unless of course we at least consider the possibility that Lyanna was no longer considered a hostage at the time of the Trident.  

I’m sure it’s deliberately vague so that it could be argued either way. But I think the reconciliation can be understood both ways - 1) right after it happened, and also 2) months or even years later during a chance meeting. 
 

1 minute ago, Frey family reunion said:

There is one other possibility.  I think we have to ask ourselves why Robert was so convinced that Rhaegar had raped Lyanna hundreds of times?  And why did Robert beleive it was Rhaegar's actions that led to Lyanna's death, despite the fact that Rhaegar would have left Lyanna long before she actually died some time after the Sack?

I think we have to at least consider the possibility that Robert learned that Lyana was pregnant, and he learned of this before the Trident.  Hence the vow to kill Rhaegar, and Robert's satisfaction at seeing Rhaegar's children dead at his feet.

Hmmm, maybe. I tend to think Robert is either lying here or repeating something he was told. I believe he was manipulated by Tywin, and this line about “raped hundreds of times” would be an effective narrative to motivate Robert to action.

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17 hours ago, alienarea said:

To me this was more appeasing Robert than bashing Rhaegar, but you have a point.

I'm a bit on the fence.  I think Eddard tries to avoid a lie when he can.  Hence telling Cat that Jon is of his blood and that's all she needs to know.  

In the argument where Eddard utters this line, they were arguing about the Lannisters lack of honor.  If Robert was raging about wanting to kill Viserys and Dany, then maybe I can see Eddard trying to lesses his rage by reminding him that he already gained his vengeance on the Trident. 

But here, Eddard really didn't need to do this, and it appears during this exchange that Eddard was a bit angrier than Robert.  So it just may be that Eddard tells Robert this because Eddard believes it as well.

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6 minutes ago, Melifeather said:

I’m sure it’s deliberately vague so that it could be argued either way. But I think the reconciliation can be understood both ways - 1) right after it happened, and also 2) months or even years later during a chance meeting. 

I've considered that as well, but I think a fair reading of the line can only allow one to conclude that her death had to have been after the Sack.   As much as I would like it to be otherwise.

9 minutes ago, Melifeather said:

Hmmm, maybe. I tend to think Robert is either lying here or repeating something he was told. I believe he was manipulated by Tywin, and this line about “raped hundreds of times” would be an effective narrative to motivate Robert to action.

Regardless, Robert has to have come to some type of belief as to how Lyanna died.  And we know that Robert blames Lyanna's death on Rhaegar's lack of honor and associates her their time together as one of constant rape.  Even Robert has to be able to conclude that repeated intercourse often leads to pregnancy which often leads to significant health issues for the mother and sometimes even death.

It would also be the one spark (other than Lyanna's actual death) that could lead Robert, who despite his faults, really wasn't shown to be a monster up to the Sack, to express satisfaction with the death of very young children.  

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2 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

Even Robert has to be able to conclude that repeated intercourse often leads to pregnancy which often leads to significant health issues for the mother and sometimes even death.

This is the part I fail to understand, and either this is very bad writing or we are purposely being mislead:

Robert, who has fathered some bastards himself, maybe some by rape, believes Lyanna was raped by Rhaegar "hundreds of times", but never questions whether there was a child? And when Ned returns with Lyanna's bones and a baby he cannot add up 1 + 1? He's not the brightest candle on the cake, but he sure isn't that stupid.

Additionally, no one else seems to be able to add up 1 + 1 either.

Looking for a logical explanation, I can only conclude that Lyanna's death and Ned returning to Winterfell with baby Jon were not connected outside of Ned's fever dream, i.e. Lyanna died a lot earlier, before Jon was born?

 

 

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50 minutes ago, alienarea said:

This is the part I fail to understand, and either this is very bad writing or we are purposely being mislead:

Robert, who has fathered some bastards himself, maybe some by rape, believes Lyanna was raped by Rhaegar "hundreds of times", but never questions whether there was a child? And when Ned returns with Lyanna's bones and a baby he cannot add up 1 + 1? He's not the brightest candle on the cake, but he sure isn't that stupid.

Additionally, no one else seems to be able to add up 1 + 1 either.

Looking for a logical explanation, I can only conclude that Lyanna's death and Ned returning to Winterfell with baby Jon were not connected outside of Ned's fever dream, i.e. Lyanna died a lot earlier, before Jon was born?

 

 

The whole bit about Robert not realizing that Lyanna was pregnant or had a child only exists at this time in the imaginations of those who believe that Lyanna secretly had Rhaegar’s child and gave Ned the child to raise as his own.  It’s an assumption being made by the reader to try and fit pieces together.  It’s not really established in the text what Robert knew or didn’t know about Lyanna’s condition.

It may actually be a leap to assume that Robert would have any “love/rape child” of Rhaegar and Lyanna killed.  After all, despite his hatred of Rhaegar, Robert was still very fond of both Lyanna and Eddard.  I don’t think he would have had Lyanna’s child killed without Eddard’s blessing.  ETA:  Eddard seems very sure of the fact that Robert would never harm any of his family.

I mean, it’s not unheard of for nobles, even former nobility, to have bastards.  There is nothing to assume that they would be a danger to make a claim on the throne.  Especially when there are legitimate former royals out and about.  Yet Robert doesn’t make a move on them until very late.

And we still have to figure out what made Robert vow to kill Rhaegar at the Trident.  Specifically what he very strongly thinks Rhaegar did to Lyanna.   It couldn’t have been Lyanna’s death because she wasn’t dead.  But it could have been finding out that she was pregnant.  Which in turn meant that Lyanna had probably been located by friendly parties where Robert would have found out about her condition.

That still leaves a lot of vagueness about what happened next.  I mean if a woman dies due to childbirth complications, it’s not unusual for the child to have died as well.  So perhaps that’s what Robert was told.

Or, he simply didn’t care what happened to the child.  After all, he didn’t particularly care as to what happened to his bastards.

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14 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

After all, he didn’t particularly care as to what happened to his bastards.

I always reckon that the simplest explanations are the best, and unless she was snatched by a gang of Dothraki sellswords the "raped 100 times" is just hyperbole. The fact that she was abducted/raped/died is all that matters to him, not the possible other consequences. 

Nevertheless, I'm still inclined to think that hyperbole is misleading and that the destructive downward spiral triggered by Lyanna's death is obscuring what may have really happened. The R+L=J theory is predicated on a love-match between "Prince Rhaegar and his Lady Lyanna", and their elopement, therefore when Trouserless Bob rants on about kidnapping and rape is just the ravings  of an angry drunken sore loser.

On the other hand some things don't add up here. Bob complains that the idea of a R+L love story is down to the ballad singers, yet according to the Starks it was abduction and rape. Bran has been told that story, unsoftened by any hint of a gentler explanation [and in parenthesis Sansa who starts off as a sucker for romantic stories has never heard that version either].

Then we have the timing again. When was Lyanna buried ?  Going on the conventional timeline, Lord Eddard discovers her down south, dying, and then comes back with her bones and with Jon. However while Catelyn gets her knickers in a twist over the bastard there's nothing said about the burying of her husband's sister. Trouserless Bob loved her dearly but had no involvement in that burying either. Grief in a great house is a very public thing, but not a whisper and that brings us back to Bob's vengeance at the Trident and afterwards; vengeance for something that had happened previously, ie; Lyanna died or at least was written off before the Trident

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On 7/13/2021 at 10:01 PM, alienarea said:

... let's do the time warp again ...

Wasn't one of the Rocky Horror Picture Show's cast in a wheelchair?

Is Meat Loaf Robert Baratheon reborn?

"Let me sleep on it

Cersei, Cersei, let me sleep on it

Let me sleep on it

i'm going on a boar hunt in the morning"

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The tale Bran tells is an accepted version told at Winterfell. This is before his third eye is open and there aren't any indications that this is one of his "remembered" visions. If he was more insistent I could be persuaded that this was a "remembered" vision, but I think its just the story Ned wanted circulated at home.

Quote

 

A Game of Thrones - Bran VII

"The maid's a fair one," Osha said.

"Robert was betrothed to marry her, but Prince Rhaegar carried her off and raped her," Bran explained. "Robert fought a war to win her back. He killed Rhaegar on the Trident with his hammer, but Lyanna died and he never got her back at all."

"A sad tale," said Osha, "but those empty holes are sadder."

 

The hyperbole of Lyanna being raped hundreds of times doesn't ring true. Either its something Robert was told to get him worked up or he himself is lying and using this phrase in a manipulative manner. It sort of has the ring of Donald Trump using propaganda to manipulate his audience.

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4 minutes ago, Melifeather said:

The tale Bran tells is an accepted version told at Winterfell. This is before his third eye is open and there aren't any indications that this is one of his "remembered" visions. If he was more insistent I could be persuaded that this was a "remembered" vision, but I think its just the story Ned wanted circulated at home.

The hyperbole of Lyanna being raped hundreds of times doesn't ring true. Either its something Robert was told to get him worked up or he himself is lying and using this phrase in a manipulative manner. It sort of has the ring of Donald Trump using propaganda to manipulate his audience.

Or he dreams of her being raped every night and that translates to raped hundreds of times.  He also tells Ned that she should have been buried beneath a tree so the rain could cleanse her.  

I also question how prickly Ned becomes when he finds Catelyn hidden in a brothel.  If Lyanna was found in a brothel, Robert might also think she had been raped hundreds of times.

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9 minutes ago, LynnS said:

Or he dreams of her being raped every night and that translates to raped hundreds of times.  He also tells Ned that she should have been buried beneath a tree so the rain could cleanse her.  

I also question how prickly Ned becomes when he finds Catelyn hidden in a brothel.  If Lyanna was found in a brothel, Robert might also think she had been raped hundreds of times.

The only indication we have as to the location where she was found is Ned's fever dream of a "tower long fallen", and his waking memory of: 

Quote

They had found himstill holding her body, silent with grief. The little crannogman, Howland Reed, had taken her hand from his. Ned could recall none of it. 

Ned could recall none of it. If the old dream was true then he would be remembering, right?

Scratch that. He couldn't remember what happened after he found her.

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12 minutes ago, Melifeather said:

The only indication we have as to the location where she was found is Ned's fever dream of a "tower long fallen", and his waking memory of: 

Ned could recall none of it. If the old dream was true then he would be remembering, right?

Scratch that. He couldn't remember what happened after he found her.

The First Keep at Winterfell is also a tower long fallen and the crypts and lichyard are located close by.

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31 minutes ago, LynnS said:

He also tells Ned that she should have been buried beneath a tree so the rain could cleanse her.  

Perhaps she was - originally - then Lord Eddard dug her up again and took her back to Winterfell after it was all over. Either way, once again we're seeing genuine regret here for a lost love. This is another reason why I'm thinking we're being misled here. Because we're presented with the old drunk at the start, its easy to assume that what he's saying is no more than the maundering self pity of an aging alcoholic. Hyperbole aside the base story could be true and the ballad-singers' version a nonsense

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25 minutes ago, LynnS said:

The First Keep at Winterfell is also a tower long fallen and the crypts and lichyard are located close by.

The First Keep is still standing (unused). The Broken Tower is the collapsed one and is where Bran found Cersei and Jamie

There are some interesting fallen towers in the books. For example the towers in The Whispers with the smuggler's cove nearby when Brienne goes looking for a Stark sister:

Quote

Fifty feet below, the waves were swirling in and over the remnants of a shattered tower. Behind it, she glimpsed the mouth of a large cavern.

"That's the old beacon tower," said Nimble Dick as he came up behind her. "It fell when I was half as old as Pods here. Used to be steps down to the cove, but when the cliff collapsed they went too. The smugglers stopped landing here after that. Time was, they could row their boats into the cave, but no more. See?" He put one hand on her back, and pointed with the other.

The presence of a young weirwood tree highlights its link to the Old Gods.

Quote

In their midst was a pale stranger; a slender young weirwood with a trunk as white as a cloistered maid

 

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6 minutes ago, Black Crow said:

Perhaps she was - originally - then Lord Eddard dug her up again and took her back to Winterfell after it was all over. Either way, once again we're seeing genuine regret here for a lost love. This is another reason why I'm thinking we're being misled here. Because we're presented with the old drunk at the start, its easy to assume that what he's saying is no more than the maundering self pity of an aging alcoholic. Hyperbole aside the base story could be true and the ballad-singers' version a nonsense

I think that's true.  I also think that Ned And Robert didn't express any grief until the war was over including the mopping up operations.  Even Robb is consumed by the immediate necessities of warfare when he learned that Ned died.  Robert never overcame his grief.

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33 minutes ago, Tucu said:

The presence of a young weirwood tree highlights its link to the Old Gods.

 

So we have a slender young weirwood white as a cloistered maid. And we have Lyanna in Theon's feast of the dead dream:

Quote

The slim, sad girl who wore a crown of pale blue roses and a white gown spattered with gore could only be Lyanna

2 slim young girls in white :-)

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4 hours ago, LynnS said:

I think that's true.  I also think that Ned And Robert didn't express any grief until the war was over including the mopping up operations.  Even Robb is consumed by the immediate necessities of warfare when he learned that Ned died.  Robert never overcame his grief.

I have to friendly disagree with this. In my understanding, the situations cannot be compared.

Robb has to lead the North and cannot allow himself to show his grief, or thinks he cannot allow to show. We never learn his inner monologue.

The Ned and Robert situation is different, as Lyanna was not supposed to get into a dangerous situation to begin with. And they would have been allowed to express their grief.

The longer we discuss this here these days, I'm thinking that Ned's "official" version is a lie.

I also cannot get the wording wraiths out of my head when he described his friends fallen at the ToJ.

It always leads me back to Star Wars Wraith Squadron, of all places.

Did the three kingsguards at the ToJ have to die to cover up for Ned's lie(s) regarding Lyanna?

"Promise me."

"Now it ends."

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14 minutes ago, alienarea said:

Did the three kingsguards at the ToJ have to die to cover up for Ned's lie(s) regarding Lyanna?

"Promise me."

"Now it ends."

In a series of books where we are told:

Quote

"Someone told." Hotah shrugged. "Someone always tells."

Ned managed to keep a secret for 16 years. I put a bet on Ned's kill squad a while ago. Ned only left Howland alive after his long hunt.

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