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Heresy 237 The Ballad of Trouserless Bob Baratheon


Black Crow

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13 minutes ago, alienarea said:

Ned says: "Now it ends." He gets his vengeance for Lyanna.

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A Game of Thrones - Eddard II

"The Others take your honor!" Robert swore. "What did any Targaryen ever know of honor? Go down into your crypt and ask Lyanna about the dragon's honor!"

"You avenged Lyanna at the Trident," Ned said, halting beside the king. Promise me, Ned, she had whispered.

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A Feast for Crows - Brienne I

Jaime would not do that. He was sincere. He gave me the sword, and called it Oathkeeper. Anyway, it made no matter. She had promised Lady Catelyn that she would bring back her daughters, and no promise was as solemn as one sworn to the dead. The younger girl was long dead, Jaime claimed; the Arya the Lannisters sent north to marry Roose Bolton's bastard was a fraud. That left only Sansa. Brienne had to find her.

 

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1 hour ago, LynnS said:

"You avenged Lyanna at the Trident," Ned said, halting beside the king. Promise me, Ned, she had whispered.

Robert avenged Lyanna at the Trident. Not Ned. When did he avenge Lyanna? At the ToJ?

What did Lyanna ask for revenge?

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4 hours ago, Black Crow said:

The various passages quoted although perhaps not individually significant build up a bigger picture than suggested by the R+L=J legend. The abduction of Lyanna may have been the trigger for the rebellion, but it wasn't the cause of it; there was a much bigger game in progress and that has to call into question whether the ballad singers were indeed talking mince.

As for Trouserless Bob: He had finally realized that Robert was no mere outlaw lord to be crushed at whim, but the greatest threat House Targaryen had faced since Daemon Blackfyre. The Bob we're introduced to at the start of the story might well have degenerated into an alcoholic drunk, but back then... so perhaps we ought to listen more closely.

One thing missing from Lyanna's and Bob's tales is the dragon eggs. We know that Aerys was trying to hatch them, possibly by doing fire executions:

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In the wake of Duskendale, the king also began to display signs of an ever-increasing obsession with dragonfire, similar to that which had haunted several of his forebears. Lord Darklyn would never have dared defy him if he had been a dragonrider, Aerys reasoned. His attempts to bring forth dragons from eggs found in the depths of Dragonstone (some so old that they had turned to stone) yielded naught, however.

Frustrated, Aerys turned to the Wisdoms of the ancient Guild of Alchemists, who knew the secret of producing the volatile jade green substance known as wildfire, said to be a close cousin to dragonflame. The pyromancers became a regular fixture at his court as the king's fascination with fire grew. By 280 AC, Aerys II had taken to burning traitors, murderers, and plotters, rather than hanging or beheading them. The king seemed to take great pleasure in these fiery executions, which were presided over by Wisdom Rossart, the grand master of the Guild of Alchemists...so much so that he granted Rossart the title of Lord and gave him a seat upon the small council.

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Let Robert be king over charred bones and cooked meat. The Targaryens never bury their dead, they burn them. Aerys meant to have the greatest funeral pyre of them all. Though if truth be told, I do not believe he truly expected to die. Like Aerion Brightfire before him, Aerys thought the fire would transform him . . . that he would rise again, reborn as a dragon, and turn all his enemies to ash.

Illyrio's eggs seem to be those sold to the Sealord of Braavos. So where are Aerys' eggs? Robert didn't found them in KL, Stannis doesn't have them and Darry didn't took them as far as we know.

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11 hours ago, Tucu said:

One thing missing from Lyanna's and Bob's tales is the dragon eggs. We know that Aerys was trying to hatch them, possibly by doing fire executions

It's also conspicuously missing from Rhaegar's tale

What was he actually hoping to achieve? The mere possession of dragons again isn't going to make much difference to the price of fish, The Targaryens had them before, so what's the point? Is he really aiming for the fiery transformation sought by Aireon Brightflame annd by Aerys - and achieved by Danaerys

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On 7/31/2021 at 9:30 AM, Tucu said:
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After dancing griffins lost the Battle of the Bells, Aerys exiled him." Why am I telling this absurd ugly child? "He had finally realized that Robert was no mere outlaw lord to be crushed at whim, but the greatest threat House Targaryen had faced since Daemon Blackfyre. The king reminded Lewyn Martell gracelessly that he held Elia and sent him to take command of the ten thousand Dornishmen coming up the kingsroad. Jon Darry and Barristan Selmy rode to Stoney Sept to rally what they could of griffins' men, and Prince Rhaegar returned from the south and persuaded his father to swallow his pride and summon my father. But no raven returned from Casterly Rock, and that made the king even more afraid. He saw traitors everywhere, and Varys was always there to point out any he might have missed

At the time of the Battle of the Bells Aerys considered Elia a hostage; we are told that Aegon was born in Dragonstone and that Elia and his children where there when Rhaegar "kidnapped" Lyanna. So who moved them to KL and why? And we have this other bit about Elia

This is just a timeline of events. I don't believe its confirmation that Elia was a hostage this early in the Rebellion. How did Elia get back to Kings Landing after giving birth to Aegon on Dragonstone? And why would she go back to Kings Landing without Rhaegar? I don't think she would have come by herself. I think she was with Rhaegar when he returned from the south prior to the Trident. As soon as Rhaegar left and she took up residence in Maegor's Holdfast, Aerys set guards. They were preparing for a sack. In the beginning it may have looked like a means of protection much like when Cersei and her court ladies holed up in the tower when Stannis arrived. Since Rhaegar was gone, someone needed to meet the Dornish army that was yet coming up the Kingsroad from the south. King Aerys's "reminder" may have been a convenient twisting of perception. It would have been very easy to say she was actually now his prisoner.

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19 hours ago, alienarea said:

Robert avenged Lyanna at the Trident. Not Ned. When did he avenge Lyanna? At the ToJ?

What did Lyanna ask for revenge?

Well not Lyanna.  I wonder if Ned made a promise to avenge her after she died.  Something akin to Brienne promising to avenge Renly after he dies.  Or if he seeks justice in some way and if this isn't the reason that the confrontation at the ToJ has the feel, if not the exact form of a trial of seven. 

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The World of Ice and Fire - The Targaryen Kings: Maegor I

Visenya then challenged any who denied Maegor's right to rule to prove themselves, and the captain of the Warrior's Sons accepted the challenge. Ser Damon Morrigen, called Damon the Devout, agreed to a trial of seven after the ancient fashion: Ser Damon and six Warrior's Sons against the king and his six champions. It was a contest in which the kingdom itself was at stake, and the accounts and tales are many—and often contradictory. What we do know is that King Maegor was the last man left standing, but that he took a grievous blow to the head at the very end and fell senseless to the ground just moments after the last of the Warrior's Sons died.

 

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17 hours ago, Tucu said:

Illyrio's eggs seem to be those sold to the Sealord of Braavos. So where are Aerys' eggs? Robert didn't found them in KL, Stannis doesn't have them and Darry didn't took them as far as we know.

 

5 hours ago, Black Crow said:

It's also conspicuously missing from Rhaegar's tale

What was he actually hoping to achieve? The mere possession of dragons again isn't going to make much difference to the price of fish, The Targaryens had them before, so what's the point? Is he really aiming for the fiery transformation sought by Aireon Brightflame annd by Aerys - and achieved by Danaerys

Re: Rhaegar, I don’t think he was looking to transform himself via fire.  Instead, I think that’s the Prince that was Promised Role.  I think Rhaegar was anticipating that his son, Aegon, was going to be transformed via fire.  (I.e. pass the prince through fire)

As for the Dragon Eggs, that’s a good question.  Aemon is of the belief that Dany’s dragons served as proof that she was the Princess that was Promised.  So assuming that Rhaegar was trying to fulfill TPTWP prophecy for his son, dragon eggs should have been involved.

Which is why I think the location of the toj in Prince’s Pass is so significant.  It’s a path connecting Dorne and the Reach.  So if the toj was a meeting point, I think it was going to be a meeting point for parties from the Reach to meet with parties from Dorne.

As for Dorne, my guess is that Oberyn was probably involved.  The fact that the toj was in the Prince’s Pass is telling.  It was probably located on the lands of House Manwoody.  When Oberyn comes to King’s Landing to get vengeance for his sister, Lord Dagos Manwoody is one of the lords that accompany him.  Lord Dagos is also one of the two persons who act as Oberyn’s squires as they prepare him for battle against the Mountain.  The other “squire” being Daemon Sand.  We learn that Daemon Sand was in fact a former squire of Oberyn.  Which makes it a decent bet that Lord Dagos also probably was a former squire of Oberyn’s as well, which is why these are the two that prepare Oberyn for his duel with the Mountain.

The idea that Rhaegar’s tower of joy is placed on the lands of House Manwoody, who’s heir may have been Oberyn’s squire at the time, makes me believe that Oberyn was supposed to play a part in all of this.  He just didn’t make it to the toj before Eddard.

As for the Reach, my guess is they needed someone who was familiar with Valyrian magic to help perform the ritual.  And the only one who would have been operating in this time period, that could fit the bill is Marwyn.  It also is intriguing that Marwyn’s current apprentice is one of Oberyn’s daughters.  Surely there is a connection between the two.

So if I had to guess, Oberyn was tasked with bringing the guest of honor, the prince that was promised, while Marwyn was to bring the dragon eggs and the knowledge fo hatch them.

 

 

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The Prince's Pass name is old - much older than Rhaegar. Arys Oakheart recalls an ancient tapestry that hung in his family home. It was woven with a design that represented an historical event of a battle between the Reach and Dorne. Depicted are three leaves pierced by Dornish spears in the Prince's Pass. The Oakheart's shield design is of three leaves so it must be symbolic of three Oakheart men killed in that location by the Dornish.

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A Feast for Crows - The Soiled Knight

The night was unseasonably cool, even for autumn. A brisk wet wind was swirling down the alleys, stirring up the day's dust. A north wind, and full of chill. Ser Arys Oakheart pulled up his hood to cover his face. It would not do for him to be recognized. A fortnight past, a trader had been butchered in the shadow city, a harmless man who'd come to Dorne for fruit and found death instead of dates. His only crime was being from King's Landing.

The mob would find a sterner foe in me. He would almost have welcomed an attack. His hand drifted down to brush lightly over the hilt on the longsword that hung half-hidden amongst the folds of his layered linen robes, the outer with its turquoise stripes and rows of golden suns, and the lighter orange one beneath. The Dornish garb was comfortable, but his father would have been aghast had he lived to see his son so dressed. He was a man of the Reach, and the Dornish were his ancient foes, as the tapestries at Old Oak bore witness. Arys only had to close his eyes to see them still. Lord Edgerran the Open-Handed, seated in splendor with the heads of a hundred Dornishmen piled round his feet. The Three Leaves in the Prince's Pass, pierced by Dornish spears, Alester sounding his warhorn with his last breath. Ser Olyvar the Green Oak all in white, dying at the side of the Young Dragon. Dorne is no fit place for any Oakheart.

 

 

The Prince's Pass is so named, because the main force of the Young Dragon (Daeron I) used it to conquer Dorne:

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A Dance with Dragons - Jon IV

"When the Young Dragon conquered Dorne, he used a goat track to bypass the Dornish watchtowers on the Boneway."

"I know that tale as well, but Daeron made too much of it in that vainglorious book of his. Ships won that war, not goat tracks. Oakenfist broke the Planky Town and swept halfway up the Greenblood whilst the main Dornish strength was engaged in the Prince's Pass." Stannis drummed his fingers on the map. "These mountain lords will not hinder my passage?"

 

The tapestry depicts Lord Edgerran Oakheart seated in splendor with the heads of a hundred Dornish piled around his feet. Sounds like he won a decisive battle and was richly rewarded. While the date of his battle isn't noted it seems like it could line up with the Young Dragon. 

The World Book says the Prince's Pass was once called the Wide Way.

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The World of Ice and Fire - The Reach: The Gardener Kings

Greatest of all the Gardeners was King Garth VII, the Goldenhand, a giant in both war and peace. As a boy, he turned back the Dornish when King Ferris Fowler led ten thousand men through the Wide Way (as the Prince's Pass was then called), intent on conquest. Soon after, he turned his attention to the sea and drove the last ironmen from their strongholds on the Shield Islands. Thereafter he resettled the islands with his fiercest fighters, granting them special dispensations for the purpose of turning them into a first defense against the ironborn, should they return. This proved a great success, and to this day the men of the Four Shields pride themselves on defending the mouth of the Mander and the heart of the Reach against any and all seaborne foes.

 

 

Three knights from House Oakheart met their death at the watch tower in the Prince's Pass that many claim is the location of the tower of joy. An event which is echoed much later by the fight between Ned and the three Kingsguard in his fever dream. House Oakheart lost three knights, but in the end Lord Edgerran was richly rewarded. In Ned's fever dream the Kingsguard are defeated, but in the end House Targaryen were the losers.

 

Edited to add: the dress that Arya wore with the little acorns might be a nod to the Oakheart's that defeated the Dornish in the Prince's Pass, and her father's defeat of three Kingsguard in the parallel that came later. Just a thought.

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36 minutes ago, Frey family reunion said:

 

Re: Rhaegar, I don’t think he was looking to transform himself via fire.  Instead, I think that’s the Prince that was Promised Role.  I think Rhaegar was anticipating that his son, Aegon, was going to be transformed via fire.  (I.e. pass the prince through fire)

As for the Dragon Eggs, that’s a good question.  Aemon is of the belief that Dany’s dragons served as proof that she was the Princess that was Promised.  So assuming that Rhaegar was trying to fulfill TPTWP prophecy for his son, dragon eggs should have been involved.

 

Oh, indeed and starting with the second paragraph, it is of course the hatching of the dragon eggs not merely their possession that's important

And then, as you say, Rhaegar recognised for some unspecified reason that he wasn't the chosen one [or chickened out of the ordeal by fire] and here we come back to the three heads of the dragon. Perhaps 3 eggs were required for the ritual and presumably three hosts.

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46 minutes ago, Frey family reunion said:

...the location of the toj in Prince’s Pass is so significant.  It’s a path connecting Dorne and the Reach.  So if the toj was a meeting point, I think it was going to be a meeting point for parties from the Reach to meet with parties from Dorne.

Melifeather has just explained the history, but the tower as a meeting point makes a lot of sense, which is why I've suggested it was so named because it was the logical place for Rhaegar to meet and greet Elia as she came north out of Dorne to marry him - and as "The Tower of Joy" to be an agreed meeting place for the infamous rencounter.

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Regarding the tower of joy...I think its a mistake to link the place that Rhaegar called the tower of joy with the watchtower in the Prince's Pass. Ned's recollection of the bitter memory where he lost five of his men could have been much earlier in the Rebellion. Black Crow brought up the meaning of the word "vengeance". How could Robert take vengeance upon Rhaegar at the Trident if Lyanna wasn't dead yet?

If Lyanna died prior to the battle at the Trident, then I think its entirely possible that Lyanna was found near a ruined tower when Ned was traveling from Stoney Sept after the Battle of the Bells and after he crossed the God's Eye to meet up with Jon Arryn's forces. I had previously made a connection between the tower of joy and Maegor's Holdfast, and while I still see parallels between the two I don't think it was the location where Lyanna was found.

Arya's escape from the burning barn at that abandoned tower near the Gods Eye was a repeated cycle. Right before Arya somersaults down the tunnel she sees a wheel looming over her. The looming wheel is symbolic of a life cycle or cyclicality of what is happening in her life. The act of somersaulting or rolling down the narrow winding tunnel headfirst, dropping 5 feet and then crawling for a total of a dozen feet through the earth is visually our clue that Arya is repeating Lyanna's death, but she emerges out the other end still alive.

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A Clash of Kings - Arya IV

And then a wheel was looming over her. The wagon jumped and moved a half foot when Biter threw himself against his chains again. Jaqen saw her, but it was too hard to breathe, let alone talk. She threw the axe into the wagon. Rorge caught it and lifted it over his head, rivers of sooty sweat pouring down his noseless face. Arya was running, coughing. She heard the steel crash through the old wood, and again, again. An instant later came a crack as loud as thunder, and the bottom of the wagon came ripping loose in an explosion of splinters.

Arya rolled headfirst into the tunnel and dropped five feet. She got dirt in her mouth but she didn't care, the taste was fine, the taste was mud and water and worms and life. Under the earth the air was cool and dark. Above was nothing but blood and roaring red and choking smoke and the screams of dying horses. She moved her belt around so Needle would not be in her way, and began to crawl. A dozen feet down the tunnel she heard the sound, like the roar of some monstrous beast, and a cloud of hot smoke and black dust came billowing up behind her, smelling of hell. Arya held her breath and kissed the mud on the floor of the tunnel and cried. For whom, she could not say.

 

It's also interesting that Arya moved her belt around so that Needle would not be in her way. Robert's goring by the bore gave Ned deja vu due to, not only the type of injury, or the way that he lay in his bed of blood and the smells in the room, but also the positioning of the three Kingsguard. This is evidence that Lyanna's death and circumstances were similar and that a "Needle" got in her way.

Screams of dying horses...hmm, a nod to Lyanna dying perhaps?

As for Rory Cassel's father being buried far to the south...Ned sent Rory to be buried next to his grandfather at Winterfell, because his father was buried further south. Lots of places are south of Winterfell. The context was the distance and positioning of Rory's father's grave to the location of the grandfather's grave.

When Tyrion escaped the Black Cells he did so through secret tunnels. He escaped "fiery" death much like Arya did. He was "salted" and "pickled" in a barrel - which are symbolic connections not just to (red) herrings and Azor Ahai, but to Bloodraven's salting of Whitewalls. Cersei had Jaime search the Tower of the Hand. Jaime figuratively tore the tower down, meaning he searched it thoroughly, and then Cersei ordered the tower burned, because she wanted to tear the tower down literally. 

After the Second Blackfyre Rebellion was put down during the Wedding Tourney at Whitewalls, Bloodraven said the following to Lord Butterwell regarding Whitewalls:

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I mean to pull it down stone by stone and sow the ground that it stands upon with salt. In twenty years, no one will remember it existed. Old fools and young malcontents still make pilgrimages to the Redgrass Field to plant flowers on the spot where Daemon Blackfyre fell. I will not suffer Whitewalls to become another monument to the Black Dragon.

Bloodraven pulled down Whitewalls stone by stone. That's alot of work considering Whitewalls was a very expensive castle to build. Not only was there a beautiful holdfast of white stone and marble, there were also a great hall, a sept, a gatehouse, yards, a kennel, kitchens, a cellar, and a well.

Calling something a "tower of joy" can be said ironically. It doesn't have to be a location where Rhaegar found joy. It can be a location where the Targaryens won a significant battle, and indeed putting down a Blackfyre pretender at a tournament would have been significant. Bloodraven rode to Whitewalls with three Kingsguard as well as 300 Raven's Teeth, 500 knights, and 5000 infantry - this was a significant force, but Bloodraven was able to snuff out the rebellion with barely a whimper. Lord Butterwell had most of his wealth taken from him and his castle razed to the ground. After a thorough search, Aegon V aka "Egg" was found unharmed in a sept. Another observation is that eggs are frequently pickled and salted.

The Riverlands in particular seem to be important as a location. It's where most of Robert's Rebellion was held. Arya escaped death in the Riverlands on the shores of the Gods Eye. Tyrion was taken hostage by Catelyn Stark at the Inn at the Crossroads which is located at the intersection of the Kingsroad and the River Road - in the Riverlands. And Lyanna went missing not ten leagues from Harrenhal which again is on the Gods Eye in the Riverlands. IMO placing Lyanna's death and the tower of joy in the Prince's Pass feels like a red herring. Tyrion's pickling in the barrel and the steps that Varys took to conceal his escape is our clue that placing the tower in the Prince's Pass is a misdirection.

 

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Back to Bob around the time of the rebellion:

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"Some truths are hard to hear. Robert was a . . . a good knight . . . chivalrous, brave . . . he spared my life, and the lives of many others . . . Prince Viserys was only a boy, it would have been years before he was fit to rule, and . . . forgive me, my queen, but you asked for truth . . . even as a child, your brother Viserys oft seemed to be his father's son, in ways that Rhaegar never did."

"His father's son?" Dany frowned. "What does that mean?"

The old knight did not blink. "Your father is called 'the Mad King' in Westeros. Has no one ever told you?"

Bob was not bad, better than Aerys and Viserys; not as good as the not-crazy Rhaegar.

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It was his failures that haunted him at night, though. Jaehaerys, Aerys, Robert. Three dead kings. Rhaegar, who would have been a finer king than any of them

 

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38 minutes ago, Tucu said:

Back to Bob around the time of the rebellion:

Bob was not bad, better than Aerys and Viserys; not as good as the not-crazy Rhaegar.

 

This was Barristan's opinion. He did his duty, but his failures haunted him at night. Why did Barristan take Rhaegar's death so personally? Its the sentences directly afterward that provide enlightenment. He failed to protect Elia and her children from death.

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A Dance with Dragons - The Queensguard

But no. That was not fair. He did his duty. Some nights, Ser Barristan wondered if he had not done that duty too well. He had sworn his vows before the eyes of gods and men, he could not in honor go against them … but the keeping of those vows had grown hard in the last years of King Aerys's reign. He had seen things that it pained him to recall, and more than once he wondered how much of the blood was on his own hands. If he had not gone into Duskendale to rescue Aerys from Lord Darklyn's dungeons, the king might well have died there as Tywin Lannister sacked the town. Then Prince Rhaegar would have ascended the Iron Throne, mayhaps to heal the realm. Duskendale had been his finest hour, yet the memory tasted bitter on his tongue.

It was his failures that haunted him at night, though. Jaehaerys, Aerys, Robert. Three dead kings. Rhaegar, who would have been a finer king than anyof them. Princess Elia and the children. Aegon just a babe, Rhaenys with her kitten. Dead, every one, yet he still lived, who had sworn to protect them. And now Daenerys, his bright shining child queen. She is not dead. I will not believe it.

Afternoon brought Ser Barristan a brief respite from his doubts. He spent it in the training hall on the pyramid's third level, working with his boys, teaching them the art of sword and shield, horse and lance … and chivalry, the code that made a knight more than any pit fighter. Daenerys would need protectors her own age about her after he was gone, and Ser Barristan was determined to give her such.

Barristan had been sent to rally the royalist troops after the defeat at the Battle of the Bells and after King Aerys "fired" Jon Connington. Selmy then fought in the Battle at the Trident, so how was he supposed to protect Elia and her children if he had been away from Kings Landing for so many months? I think he regretted saving Aerys from Duskendale, because if the king had died then Rhaegar would have been king.

 

Back to Tyrion in a barrel getting pickled...it struck me that the imagery of the barrel being rolled is like Arya's somersaults. Their concealment, the repeated rolling/cycling, and their escape from death are inversions to Lyanna's death. They repeated many of the same events from when Lyanna went missing, but ultimately they lived where she died. Being re-born amidst salt and smoke seems to apply to Tyrion and Arya. Tyrion escaped the Black Cells through the tunnels and got sealed into a barrel, got pickled on wine, and rolled to safety. Arya somersaulted down a tunnel and escaped being burned to death. Whitewalls was taken apart stone by stone and salted. Azor Ahai is supposed to be born of salt and smoke. It should be someone that escapes certain death by rolling away - maybe from fire - down a tunnel. Castle Black has subterranean tunnels. Just sayin.

 

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Still pulling parallels out of that scene where Arya somersaulted down a tunnel: 

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A dozen feet down the tunnel she heard the sound, like the roar of some monstrous beast, and a cloud of hot smoke and black dust came billowing up behind her, smelling of hell. 

Whatever was done seems to have been done to "kill" a monstrous beast - the Targaryens perhaps? The cloud of hot smoke and black dust smelling of hell seems to evoke a dragon. I'm thinking Bloodraven was motivated to act, because the Prince that was Promised - which I believe was understood as a living dragon - was to come through the line of Aerys and Rhaella, and it needed to be stopped. I had brought up the idea that out of all the possible futures where "a way to win" could be realized included a reality in which Lyanna died. 

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Jorah also has Rhaegar in high esteem. When Dany saves Eroeh from her rapists:

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You are your brother’s sister, in truth.”

Viserys?” She did not understand.

No,” he answered. “Rhaegar.”

Curious quote coming from a northerner that fought at the Trident.

Also:

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Your brother Rhaegar was the last dragon, and he died on the Trident. Viserys is less than the shadow of a snake

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Rhaegar fought valiantly, Rhaegar fought nobly, Rhaegar fought honorably. And Rhaegar died

 

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1 hour ago, Melifeather said:

Regarding the tower of joy...I think its a mistake to link the place that Rhaegar called the tower of joy with the watchtower in the Prince's Pass.

I think that battle's a lost cause.  GRRM put it in his book maps and his land of ice and fire.  I don't think it's really debatable that Ned fought the three kingsguards there.  The only thing that I question is that Lyanna was there at the time, or that she ever was there. The appendix only has the location of her death in the mountains of Dorne, and does not specify the tower of joy.

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9 minutes ago, Melifeather said:

Still pulling parallels out of that scene where Arya somersaulted down a tunnel: 

Whatever was done seems to have been done to "kill" a monstrous beast - the Targaryens perhaps? The cloud of hot smoke and black dust smelling of hell seems to evoke a dragon. I'm thinking Bloodraven was motivated to act, because the Prince that was Promised - which I believe was understood as a living dragon - was to come through the line of Aerys and Rhaella, and it needed to be stopped. I had brought up the idea that out of all the possible futures where "a way to win" could be realized included a reality in which Lyanna died. 

I always took that quote from Arya as foreshadowing:

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She got dirt in her mouth but she didn’t care, the taste was fine. The taste was mud and water and worms and life. Under the earth the air was cool and dark. Above was nothing but blood and roaring red and choking smoke and the screams of dying horses. A dozen feet down the tunnel she heard the sound, like the roar of some monstrous beast, and a cloud of hot smoke and black dust came billowing up behind her, smelling of hell.

Under ground, life and darkness. Above ground, a fire&blood hell.

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13 minutes ago, Frey family reunion said:

I think that battle's a lost cause.  GRRM put it in his book maps and his land of ice and fire.  I don't think it's really debatable that Ned fought the three kingsguards there.  The only thing that I question is that Lyanna was there at the time, or that she ever was there. The appendix only has the location of her death in the mountains of Dorne, and does not specify the tower of joy.

I disagree. The maps of Lands of Ice and Fire feature original artwork from illustrator and cartographer Jonathan Roberts with GRRM's authorization. Did GRRM confirm that Roberts got the location correct or did he simply allow the location, because that is where he's led the reader to believe? Its sort of like allowing Maester Yandel to write the official history in the World book. Is the account factual or the official history pleasing to the king?

12 minutes ago, Tucu said:

I always took that quote from Arya as foreshadowing:

Under ground, life and darkness. Above ground, a fire&blood hell.

Foreshadowing for what?

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11 minutes ago, Frey family reunion said:

When it's raining down fire and ash from a comet strike and possible volcanic eruptions, it may be better to be underground.

 

6 minutes ago, Melifeather said:

Foreshadowing for what?

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Benerro shriek of bleeding stars and a sword of fire that will cleanse the world

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Her coming is the fulfillment of an ancient prophecy. From smoke and salt was she born to make the world anew. She is Azor Ahai returned … and her triumph over darkness will bring a summer that will never end … death itself will bend its knee, and all those who die fighting in her cause shall be reborn

Mud and darkness might be better than R'hllor cleaning service.

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