Heresy 237 The Ballad of Trouserless Bob Baratheon

[Melifeather]

21 minutes ago, Tucu said:

He is more a warrior (and drunk) than a worker. From one of the quotes I included before:

Not long ago, GRRM posted this quote from Nelson Mandela in his blog:

 

The planet that they call the Thief is red like our planet Mars named after the ancient Roman god of war. Seems apt that the Red Wanderer/Thief/Smith is Robert. Ned did say he was once built like a maiden's dream which would fit the stereotype of being like a god and he certainly came to power through war. Something to consider about Durran Godsgrief...all of his wedding guests died due to his actions in marrying a goddess. Robert's wedding guests are dead also if you think of his friends Ned and Jon Arryn as the guests that would have sat on "his side".

Mars raped Rhea Silvia who was a Vestal Virgin. She then gave birth to twin wolves Romulus and Remus. I know we've talked about Romulus and Remus a long, long time ago in Heresy, but I cannot remember in what capacity.

[LynnS]

3 hours ago, Black Crow said:

I would say that the first guess could well be right and if so it swings back to the OP with a vengeance. Trouserless Bob is important, far more important than he at first appears because the Old Gods needed him, and his hammer to bring the Targaryens down and frustrate Rhaegar's ambitions 

The old gods were no friend to Aerys.

In Martin's speech, he talks about watchmen as gatekeepers.  At the Eyrie, the first gate is the Bloody Gate stopping passage unless the knight lets you pass.

Quote

A Game of Thrones - Eddard X

"I gave them over to the silent sisters, to be sent north to Winterfell. Jory would want to lie beside his grandfather."

It would have to be his grandfather, for Jory's father was buried far to the south. Martyn Cassel had perished with the rest. Ned had pulled the tower down afterward, and used its bloody stones to build eight cairns upon the ridge. It was said that Rhaegar had named that place the tower of joy, but for Ned it was a bitter memory. They had been seven against three, yet only two had lived to ride away; Eddard Stark himself and the little crannogman, Howland Reed. He did not think it omened well that he should dream that dream again after so many years.

It would make strategic sense that the ToJ is located on a ridge but is it also a gate leading to another castle or fort?

It was said that Rhaegar named it the Tower of Joy.  This sounds like hearsay or something the singers would make up.

Who said it? Edgar Allen Poe, Winston Churchill?  A lie can travel around the world before the truth has put it's boots on.

[Tucu]

4 hours ago, Black Crow said:

I would say that the first guess could well be right and if so it swings back to the OP with a vengeance. Trouserless Bob is important, far more important than he at first appears because the Old Gods needed him, and his hammer to bring the Targaryens down and frustrate Rhaegar's ambitions 

Makes me wonder what are the links between the dragon, the Old Gods and The Bran that was Promised

Quote

"For him. The Bran boy. I was born in the time of the dragon, and for two hundred years I walked the world of men, to watch and listen and learn. I might be walking still, but my legs were sore and my heart was weary, so I turned my feet for home."

Quote

"Do you have a name?" asked Bran.

"When I am needing one."

A name only when needed...like Arya and the people in the House of Black and White

Quote

Is Jaqen H'ghar your true name?"

"Some men have many names. Weasel. Arry. Arya."

Quote

He never told her his name. Neither did the waif, the little girl with the big eyes and hollow face who reminded her of another little girl, named Weasel. Like Arya, the waif lived below the temple, along with three acolytes, two serving men, and a cook called Umma. Umma liked to talk as she worked, but Arya could not understand a word she said. The others had no names, or did not choose to share them

 

[Black Crow]

13 hours ago, LynnS said:

It would make strategic sense that the ToJ is located on a ridge but is it also a gate leading to another castle or fort?

It was said that Rhaegar named it the Tower of Joy.  This sounds like hearsay or something the singers would make up.

Who said it? Edgar Allen Poe, Winston Churchill?  A lie can travel around the world before the truth has put it's boots on.

Of course it was the ballad singers. There is no such place as the tower of joy, or rather we don't know the real name of the tower that Rhaegar was said to have named it the tower of joy [no initial capitals in the text] and we don't actually know why he named it thus. As I've suggested before the fact that it sits above the Prince's Pass between Dorne and the Reach makes it a metaphorical if not a physical gateway. As such it could very well be the spot where Rhaegar once met Elia coming out of Dorne to be his bride, or it could simply mark the point that a traveller heading south passed into Dorne.

To a very real degree it only goes to emphasise how little we actually know about what actually happened and why... and why a particular theory has flourished

 

[Tucu]

17 hours ago, Melifeather said:

The planet that they call the Thief is red like our planet Mars named after the ancient Roman god of war. Seems apt that the Red Wanderer/Thief/Smith is Robert. Ned did say he was once built like a maiden's dream which would fit the stereotype of being like a god and he certainly came to power through war. Something to consider about Durran Godsgrief...all of his wedding guests died due to his actions in marrying a goddess. Robert's wedding guests are dead also if you think of his friends Ned and Jon Arryn as the guests that would have sat on "his side".

Mars raped Rhea Silvia who was a Vestal Virgin. She then gave birth to twin wolves Romulus and Remus. I know we've talked about Romulus and Remus a long, long time ago in Heresy, but I cannot remember in what capacity.

The smith gods like Hephaestus and Vulcan are usually identified with fire, volcanoes, metalworking and craft-men in general. The only ugly and deformed gods, but they get to marry Aphrodite/Venus.

[LynnS]

Check this out at the 1 hour mark:

An Evening with George R. R. Martin [CC] - YouTube

[Tucu]

One of @Seams threads popped-up and has a couple of nice smith references.

Arya:

Quote

Septa Mordane used to say I had a blacksmith’s hands.”

Gendry hooted. “Those soft little things?” he called out. “You couldn’t even hold a hammer.”

“I could if I wanted!” she snapped at him.

now daily toiling for the FM

Bran:

Quote

Alebelly found him in the forge working the bellows for Mikken.

“Maester wants you in the turret, m’lord prince. There’s been a bird from the king.”

who might be The Builder (or not)

I would add Sam that is now forging his chain, is the Lord of Ham (salt and smoke), a hero (The Slayer) and goes around in a giant elk kidnapping (or rescuing) girls.

[Melifeather]

3 hours ago, LynnS said:

Check this out at the 1 hour mark:

An Evening with George R. R. Martin [CC] - YouTube

Do you think October is a slip? Or what were you referring to?

[LynnS]

15 minutes ago, Melifeather said:

Do you think October is a slip? Or what were you referring to?

Around the 1 hr mark he starts answering an audience question about the reasons that Ned and Robert went to war.  He doesn't mention Lyanna as the reason that Ned went to war.  He says Robert was broiling for a fight and didn't like that he had lost his girlfriend.

[Tucu]

33 minutes ago, LynnS said:

Around the 1 hr mark he starts answering an audience question about the reasons that Ned and Robert went to war.  He doesn't mention Lyanna as the reason that Ned went to war.  He says Robert was broiling for a fight and didn't like that he had lost his girlfriend.

At 1:12 he answers a question from @LmL about myths, archetypes and the echoes we see in the characters.

[Melifeather]

1 hour ago, LynnS said:

Around the 1 hr mark he starts answering an audience question about the reasons that Ned and Robert went to war.  He doesn't mention Lyanna as the reason that Ned went to war.  He says Robert was broiling for a fight and didn't like that he had lost his girlfriend.

He also said Ned was radicalized because his father and brother were executed.

[LynnS]

12 minutes ago, Melifeather said:

He also said Ned was radicalized because his father and brother were executed.

He wasn't radicalized before then? Or he wasn't involved in any underground movement to depose Aerys until then?  That's what I'm wondering.  Whereas Bob was spoiling for a fight and was triggered by losing his girlfriend.  Then they had no choice when Aerys demanded that Jon Arryn turn them over.  But they already had motive.  Ned is more upset about his father and brother than the missing Lyanna.  That seems odd.

[Frey family reunion]

7 hours ago, Black Crow said:

Of course it was the ballad singers. There is no such place as the tower of joy, or rather we don't know the real name of the tower that Rhaegar was said to have named it the tower of joy [no initial capitals in the text] and we don't actually know why he named it thus. As I've suggested before the fact that it sits above the Prince's Pass between Dorne and the Reach makes it a metaphorical if not a physical gateway. As such it could very well be the spot where Rhaegar once met Elia coming out of Dorne to be his bride, or it could simply mark the point that a traveller heading south passed into Dorne.

To a very real degree it only goes to emphasise how little we actually know about what actually happened and why... and why a particular theory has flourished

 

Normally, "it was said" does indicate something that was the source of public rumor, usually widespread rumor, and often of dubious factual context.  Sometimes it's used to convey a more localized rumor.  But it's always a rumor.

So, presumably at the very least, when Ned uses the term, he's heard it in the form of gossip.  So it's doubtful it came from anyone that would have had any first hand knowledge of what Rhaegar called it.

So it would be interesting if it turns out that the tower of joy is a publically known location (something that it's placement on the maps seems to almost infer).  And why it's publically known.  If it was publically known as a location attached to Rhaegar prior to the rebellion, it would seem an even more unusual place to "hide" Lyanna.  Especially considering how accessible it would be to opposing armies.  I also wonder why it took so long for Eddard and company to arrive if the place was publically known prior or during the events of the rebellion.   If it was publically known only after the events of the rebellion, it would be interesting as to why it became known as a place of "joy" for Rhaegar.

Now I suppose, it's possible that Rhaegar naming it his "tower of joy" was a rumor only limited to a very small amount of people and thus was not publically known.  If so, it's unusual that the location would be placed on the maps, since everywhere else are known locations within the world (or at least known to the maesters).  If so then I would think that GRRM very much wants the reader to be aware of where the tower of joy is even if the characters in his books are generally unaware (which is opposite as to the way GRRM typically operates). 

It's certainly an interesting issue.

ETA: A possibility exists, that Eddard hears the rumor of the tower of joy from the locales in the Prince's Pass or in some of the adjacent areas.  Which if Rhaegar spent any amount of time there would make some sort of sense.  There is a good chance that Eddard's Wylla came from somewhere in the area.  The fact that the port city of Wyl would be a logical port to land in if one were travelling from Storm's End to Dorne, makes me think that Wylla could have come from around there.  

[LynnS]

Oh boy, oh boy, oh boy!

FOUNDATION Trailer (2021) - YouTube

FOUNDATION Trailer 2 (2021) Extended - YouTube

[Black Crow]

46 minutes ago, Frey family reunion said:

...it's unusual that the location would be placed on the maps, since everywhere else are known locations within the world (or at least known to the maesters).  If so then I would think that GRRM very much wants the reader to be aware of where the tower of joy is even if the characters in his books are generally unaware (which is opposite as to the way GRRM typically operates). 

It's certainly an interesting issue.

 

There's another wrinkle if you think this through.

To Lord Eddard, Rhaegar was said to have named it the tower of joy [no capitals] but to him it was a bitter memory, It was an old tower so presumably it had a real name, but when. I've suggested that Rhaegar may have referred to it thus when he met Elia coming out of Dorne, but no-one actually refers to it as such during the rencounter - or at any other time

It seems far more likely in fact that Lord Eddard learned of the reputed name much later in those same ballads which Bob complained about. 

As to the maps of course, Lord Eddard's thought indicates that it wasn't a "proper" name, and afterwards he destroyed the place so it no longer exists, there is nothing to name. All that the maps actually record is the location of the rencounter - and what did the ballad singers say about that?

[Tucu]

2 hours ago, LynnS said:

Oh boy, oh boy, oh boy!

FOUNDATION Trailer (2021) - YouTube

FOUNDATION Trailer 2 (2021) Extended - YouTube

I will repeat this question until I can watch the series. Who the hell are Brother Day, Brother Dusk and Brother Dawn?

[Melifeather]

A little comedy relief about red herrings....

[Black Crow]

20 hours ago, Black Crow said:

As to the maps of course, Lord Eddard's thought indicates that it wasn't a "proper" name, and afterwards he destroyed the place so it no longer exists, there is nothing to name. All that the maps actually record is the location of the rencounter - and what did the ballad singers say about that?

I could have worded that better...

There is no such place as The Tower of Joy. That term is peculiar to the fight. The maps, as directed by GRRM therefore fix where the rencounter was/is supposed to have taken place. If you want to be picky the precision of the maps may be questionable, but there is no doubt anent the fight being down there in the mountains rather than any of the towers long fallen.

 

[LynnS]

1 hour ago, Melifeather said:

A little comedy relief about red herrings....

Fantastic!  

[Melifeather]

38 minutes ago, LynnS said:

Fantastic!  

I love the Nordic sense of humor that comes out whenever they talk. Have you seen the Norwegian comedy series Norsemen on Netflix?