Heresy 237 The Ballad of Trouserless Bob Baratheon

[Tucu]

3 hours ago, Melifeather said:

I just caught what you’ve pointed out. The Bloody Hand! 

When I posted the parallels I deleted some comments regarding Tywin. In the Alayne chapter, Petyr is referred to as “the Lord Protector”. Wouldn’t Tywin Lannister have been King Aerys Lord Protector during the time of the Harrenhal tourney? I seem to recall that Tywin was even referred to as the Lord Protector of the realm during Joffrey’s reign after the Battle of the Blackwater. Are there any clues in the text that might suggest that Tywin took care of Ashara as a father figure since her parents seemed to be dead? Perhaps Tywin brought Ashara to court to cause unrest in Rhaegar’s marriage or make an alliance with some soon to be heir, but ended up taking her maidenhead instead? 

;-) Tywin is the bloodiest of the Hands

In the Alayne mummer's play. Petyr is the Lord Protector and he negotiates a 1 year peace with the Lord Declarants; he also finances the tourney and works on splitting the alliance between the Lord Declarants. These could be parallels/mirrors of events around Harrenhal.

The "rape" in the Mercy chapter could be pointing to the archaic "abduction of a woman" and "taking something by force" definition of the word. In that chapter Mercy is both the "giggly maid" and the she-wolf.

Lord Protector of the Realm is a title used for some regents in the books: Ned, Cersei, Kevan, Daemon Targaryen and others. Sometimes they took the double role of Hand and Lord Protector.

In the Mystery Knight Bloodraven (Hand of the King) infiltrates the tourney as Maynard Plumm to disrupt the rebellion. Only the readers can notice his interference before he "arrives" with an army; Maynard Plumm acts as one of BR's "eyes" or agents.

Alayne plays the role of the dancing maid that is an agent of the Lord Protector; she keeps Sweetrobin in control with a mix of drugs and light seduction. She is also tasked with seducing Harry the Heir. At Harrenhal the boundaries of the roles are not clear. Tywin and Rhaegar both could be playing the role of Lord Protector; maybe they worked together. Rhaegar and Robert could be playing the role of the Heir. Ashara could be an agent for either or both Rhaegar and Tywin.

[Melifeather]

33 minutes ago, Tucu said:

;-) Tywin is the bloodiest of the Hands

In the Alayne mummer's play. Petyr is the Lord Protector and he negotiates a 1 year peace with the Lord Declarants; he also finances the tourney and works on splitting the alliance between the Lord Declarants. These could be parallels/mirrors of events around Harrenhal.

The "rape" in the Mercy chapter could be pointing to the archaic "abduction of a woman" and "taking something by force" definition of the word. In that chapter Mercy is both the "giggly maid" and the she-wolf.

Lord Protector of the Realm is a title used for some regents in the books: Ned, Cersei, Kevan, Daemon Targaryen and others. Sometimes they took the double role of Hand and Lord Protector.

In the Mystery Knight Bloodraven (Hand of the King) infiltrates the tourney as Maynard Plumm to disrupt the rebellion. Only the readers can notice his interference before he "arrives" with an army; Maynard Plumm acts as one of BR's "eyes" or agents.

Alayne plays the role of the dancing maid that is an agent of the Lord Protector; she keeps Sweetrobin in control with a mix of drugs and light seduction. She is also tasked with seducing Harry the Heir. At Harrenhal the boundaries of the roles are not clear. Tywin and Rhaegar both could be playing the role of Lord Protector; maybe they worked together. Rhaegar and Robert could be playing the role of the Heir. Ashara could be an agent for either or both Rhaegar and Tywin.

I am loving where this is going! It is bringing up some old ideas that I haven't thought about since 2016 when I was actively studying the titled chapters. Back then I thought Elia might have been slowly poisoning King Aerys and that the effects were what actually caused his descent into madness. I had noted some parallels between Cersei and Arianne, Ashara and Lady Nymeria, Rhaella and Sarella, as well as Elia and Arianne's Sand Snake sister Tyene. Arianne described how she, Sarella, and Tyene learned to milk pit viper venom from their "uncle". Ned referred to Tywin as a pit viper, so I'm thinking that they (Tywin, Cersei, Ashara, and Elia) may have had an unlikely alliance and plotted against Aerys.

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Nym glanced over a shoulder, to where her companions rode a dozen lengths behind. "I was abed with the Fowler twins when the word reached me," the captain heard her say. "You know the Fowler words? Let Me Soar! That is all I ask of you. Let me soar, Uncle. I need no mighty host, only one sweet sister."

"Obara?"

"Tyene. Obara is too loud. Tyene is so sweet and gentle that no man will suspect her. Obara would make Oldtown our father's funeral pyre, but I am not so greedy. Four lives will suffice for me. Lord Tywin's golden twins, as payment for Elia's children. The old lion, for Elia herself. And last of all the little king, for my father."

"The boy has never wronged us."

 

Nym as the parallel to Ashara claims she doesn't need a host to take revenge. She only needs her sister Tyene, because she's so sweet and gentle that no one would suspect her. It seems implied that the Sand Snakes are planning to poison Cersei, Jaime, Tywin, and Tommen. Of course Tyrion got to Tywin before the Sand Snakes, but they could get the rest yet. The Fowler words of "Let me soar" seem to be a nod to Ashara's reported leap to death.

I agree that Arya in the Mercy chapter is channeling both Lyanna and Ashara. She is playing a part as well as being herself so she is both. 

Robin Arryn is very obviously a parallel to King Aerys - at least to me. Sansa/Alayne even notes with disgust his long fingernails. Alayne keeping Sweetrobin under control with drugs is additional support that Ashara and/or Elia may have been giving King Aerys drugs or poison. Doesn't Sansa or Littlefinger note that a small amount of milk of the poppy can give restful sleep, but that too much is poison? It even makes sense that Tywin may have wanted Elia dead so that she couldn't tell anyone what they had been doing.

I also like the idea of Harry the Heir being both Rhaegar and Robert with Ashara attempting to seduce them both.

A re-read of the Alayne and Mercy chapters are a must! I hope this link still works...

[Tucu]

2 hours ago, Melifeather said:

I am loving where this is going! It is bringing up some old ideas that I haven't thought about since 2016 when I was actively studying the titled chapters. Back then I thought Elia might have been slowly poisoning King Aerys and that the effects were what actually caused his descent into madness. I had noted some parallels between Cersei and Arianne, Ashara and Lady Nymeria, Rhaella and Sarella, as well as Elia and Arianne's Sand Snake sister Tyene. Arianne described how she, Sarella, and Tyene learned to milk pit viper venom from their "uncle". Ned referred to Tywin as a pit viper, so I'm thinking that they (Tywin, Cersei, Ashara, and Elia) may have had an unlikely alliance and plotted against Aerys.

Nym as the parallel to Ashara claims she doesn't need a host to take revenge. She only needs her sister Tyene, because she's so sweet and gentle that no one would suspect her. It seems implied that the Sand Snakes are planning to poison Cersei, Jaime, Tywin, and Tommen. Of course Tyrion got to Tywin before the Sand Snakes, but they could get the rest yet. The Fowler words of "Let me soar" seem to be a nod to Ashara's reported leap to death.

I agree that Arya in the Mercy chapter is channeling both Lyanna and Ashara. She is playing a part as well as being herself so she is both. 

Robin Arryn is very obviously a parallel to King Aerys - at least to me. Sansa/Alayne even notes with disgust his long fingernails. Alayne keeping Sweetrobin under control with drugs is additional support that Ashara and/or Elia may have been giving King Aerys drugs or poison. Doesn't Sansa or Littlefinger note that a small amount of milk of the poppy can give restful sleep, but that too much is poison? It even makes sense that Tywin may have wanted Elia dead so that she couldn't tell anyone what they had been doing.

I also like the idea of Harry the Heir being both Rhaegar and Robert with Ashara attempting to seduce them both.

A re-read of the Alayne and Mercy chapters are a must! I hope this link still works...

Sweet and gentle Tyene and sweet and gentle Elia:

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The old knight hesitated. "Princess Elia was a good woman, Your Grace. She was kind and clever, with a gentle heart and a sweet wit. I know the prince was very fond of her."

The Mercy chapter has a character that caught my attention but I could not place: the Snapper. She is the terrifying wardrobe mistress (sewing mistress?).

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Izembaro might be the King of the Mummers, but the Snapper was the one that they all feared

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the Snapper was busy sewing Daena into her gown for the court scene

Terrifying Tyene makes her first appearance presenting Doran with a piece of embroidery and a proposal for war:

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"I made this for you, Uncle." Tyene unfolded the piece she'd been embroidering. It showed her father, Prince Oberyn, mounted on a sand steed and armored all in red, smiling. "When I finish, it is yours, to help you remember him."

Back to the Snapper. In the Rhoyne Tyrion encounters turtles:

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large turtles and small ones, flatbacks and red-ears, softshells and bonesnappers, brown turtles, green turtles, black turtles, clawed turtles and horned turtles, turtles whose ridged and patterned shells were covered with whorls of gold and jade and cream

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Lady Tyene smiled at that. Her gown was cream and green, with long lace sleeves, so modest and so innocent that any man who looked at her might think her the most chaste of maids. Areo Hotah knew better. Her soft, pale hands were as deadly as Obara's callused ones, if not more so. He watched her carefully, alert to every little flutter of her fingers.

Cream and green gown with golden hair. Nice match for the Rhoynish turtle.

Then we have his curious SSM about turtles and the game of thrones:

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“Turtles have always been my sigil, I suppose. When I was a kid, growing up in Bayonne, NJ, I lived in a federal housing project, and we were not allowed to have a dog or cats. The only pets I could have were turtles. So, I had an entire toy castle filled with dime-store turtles. I gave them all names, and since they were living in a toy castle, I decided they were all knights and kings … and I made up stories about how they killed each other and betrayed each other and fought for the kingdom. So, ‘Game of Thrones,’ actually began with turtles. I decided later to recast it with actual human beings.”

The game of thrones began with turtles. Maybe with Elia the modest, sweet and gentle Snapper and Ashara's mistress.

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His choice would have been a young maiden not long at court, one of Elia's companions … though compared to Ashara Dayne, the Dornish princess was a kitchen drab.

 

[alienarea]

A maiden is kidnapped by the enemy prince and her betrothed starts a war that has heroes dying on both sides and ends in chaos, mayhem and destruction of a fabled city while the agressor kingdoms crumble shortly after.

Troy.

[alienarea]

As Song of Ice and Fire = Troy + War of the Roses + Dragons + random porn

[Black Crow]

Do we want to keep this simple and identify Ser Shadrach as a disguised Howland Reed ?

[LynnS]

1 hour ago, Black Crow said:

Do we want to keep this simple and identify Ser Shadrach as a disguised Howland Reed ?

Martin did say Howland would show up in the next book.  

Quote

A Storm of Swords - Bran II

"If ice can burn," said Jojen in his solemn voice, "then love and hate can mate. Mountain or marsh, it makes no matter. The land is one."

"One," his sister agreed, "but over wrinkled."

The high glens seldom did them the courtesy of running north and south, so often they found themselves going long leagues in the wrong direction, and sometimes they were forced to double back the way they'd come. "If we took the kingsroad we could be at the Wall by now," Bran would remind the Reeds. He wanted to find the three-eyed crow, so he could learn to fly. Half a hundred times he said it if he said it once, until Meera started teasing by saying it along with him.

Howland fought beside Theo Wull during Robert's Rebellion:

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A Storm of Swords - Bran II

"Wull?" said Meera. "Jojen, wasn't there a Wull who rode with Father during the war?"

"Theo Wull." Jojen was breathing hard from the climb. "Buckets, they used to call him."

"That's their sigil," said Bran. "Three brown buckets on a blue field, with a border of white and grey checks. Lord Wull came to Winterfell once, to do his fealty and talk with Father, and he had the buckets on his shield. He's no true lord, though. Well, he is, but they call him just the Wull, and there's the Knott and the Norrey and the Liddle too. At Winterfell we called them lords, but their own folk don't."

Could Shadrich be aligned with the Mountain Clans:

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House Wull is the formal name given to the Wulls, the most powerful^[2] of the mountain clans from the north. The Wulls inhabit the area west of the Northern mountains along the Bay of Ice.^[3] The chief of the clan is known as "the Wull," although at Winterfell he is given the treatment of "Lord Wull."

They blazon their banners with three wooden buckets, brown on blue, with a border of grey and white checks.^[4][3]

Ser Shadrich's shield, brown and blue:

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A Feast for Crows - Brienne I

"The merchant called you Shadrich."

"Ser Shadrich of the Shady Glen. Some call me the Mad Mouse." He turned his shield to show her his sigil, a large white mouse with fierce red eyes, on bendy brown and blue. "The brown is for the lands I've roamed, the blue for the rivers that I've crossed. The mouse is me."

 

[LynnS]

2 hours ago, Black Crow said:

Do we want to keep this simple and identify Ser Shadrach as a disguised Howland Reed ?

I'm going to say yes.  Howland has been involved in Robb's war, sent his kids to Bran and Rickon; and I think his oath extends to protecting Ned's kids including Sansa.  If Martin is going to introduce him as a character; then it makes sense that it would be in a disguise.  Someone who sends his kids into danger is likely to run towards danger himself.

[Melifeather]

Is Shadrich's age ever mentioned? It does make some sense for Shadrich to be Howland. If Arya is supposed to be just like her aunt Lyanna, then her friend Mycah might be a stand-in for Howland, and Mycah "the butcher's boy" had red hair. Shadrich has red hair. Is Howland's hair color ever mentioned?

Arya and Mycah practiced sword fighting during the trip from Winterfell to Kings Landing. Mycah pointed out a lizard lion when they came through the Neck and they planned to search the waters of the Trident for Rhaegar's rubies. The whole scene about sword fighting then running and hiding, then Arya's capture and being brought before the king and queen seems a foreboding retelling. Worryingly Mycah and Arya get separated, but Sandor Clegane ran him down and killed him. If Arya is Lyanna then Arya and Mycah traded places which implies that Howland got away and hid for four days before being captured by a knight and brought before the king and queen. Recall that Arya was unharmed, but her sister's wolf Lady paid the price.

[Tucu]

7 minutes ago, Melifeather said:

Is Shadrich's age ever mentioned? It does make some sense for Shadrich to be Howland. If Arya is supposed to be just like her aunt Lyanna, then her friend Mycah might be a stand-in for Howland, and Mycah "the butcher's boy" had red hair. Shadrich has red hair. Is Howland's hair color ever mentioned?

Arya and Mycah practiced sword fighting during the trip from Winterfell to Kings Landing. Mycah pointed out a lizard lion when they came through the Neck and they planned to search the waters of the Trident for Rhaegar's rubies. The whole scene about sword fighting then running and hiding, then Arya's capture and being brought before the king and queen seems a foreboding retelling. Worryingly Mycah and Arya get separated, but Sandor Clegane ran him down and killed him. If Arya is Lyanna then Arya and Mycah traded places which implies that Howland got away and hid for four days before being captured by a knight and brought before the king and queen. Recall that Arya was unharmed, but her sister's wolf Lady paid the price.

Older than he looks at first:

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“We mice are quiet creatures.” Ser Shadrich was so short that he might have been taken for a squire, but his face belonged to a much older man. She saw long leagues in the wrinkles at the corner of his mouth, old battles in the scar beneath his ear, and a hardness behind the eyes that no boy would ever have. This was a man grown. Even Randa overtopped him, though.

In his 30s or 40s given the wrinkles?

[LynnS]

Quote

A Storm of Swords - Bran II

"If ice can burn," said Jojen in his solemn voice, "then love and hate can mate. Mountain or marsh, it makes no matter. The land is one."

"One," his sister agreed, "but over wrinkled."

ETA:  The mountains and Marsh are one in the same and overwrinkled.  A good description of Shadrich/Howland who is himself overwrinkled.

[Melifeather]

6 hours ago, Tucu said:

Sweet and gentle Tyene and sweet and gentle Elia:

The Mercy chapter has a character that caught my attention but I could not place: the Snapper. She is the terrifying wardrobe mistress (sewing mistress?).

Terrifying Tyene makes her first appearance presenting Doran with a piece of embroidery and a proposal for war:

Back to the Snapper. In the Rhoyne Tyrion encounters turtles:

Cream and green gown with golden hair. Nice match for the Rhoynish turtle.

Then we have his curious SSM about turtles and the game of thrones:

The game of thrones began with turtles. Maybe with Elia the modest, sweet and gentle Snapper and Ashara's mistress.

 

 

GRRM does spell it out right there didn't he? I'm referring to the Game of Thrones with turtles. And Elia does sound like the turtle whose ridged and patterned shell was covered with whorls of gold and jade and cream, but she wouldn't necessarily be the bonesnapping Snapper since the bonesnapper wasn't the one that was gold and green. Your connection between the seamstress Snapper and Tyene's embroidery is very compelling. While you and I seem to be on the same page with this, I'm not sure Black Crow appreciates delving into these absorbing parallels! I love it of course and I plan on rereading the Mercy chapter as well as Alayne.

Edited to add: Elia could be the terrifying Snapper, but for another reason. Since Arya's sword is named Needle and Elia was slaughtered, perhaps she's the seamstress for being stabbed with needles.

[Tucu]

12 minutes ago, Melifeather said:

GRRM does spell it out right there didn't he? I'm referring to the Game of Thrones with turtles. And Elia does sound like the turtle whose ridged and patterned shell was covered with whorls of gold and jade and cream, but she wouldn't necessarily be the bonesnapping Snapper since the bonesnapper wasn't the one that was gold and green. Your connection between the seamstress Snapper and Tyene's embroidery is very compelling. While you and I seem to be on the same page with this, I'm not sure Black Crow appreciates delving into these absorbing parallels! I love it of course and I plan on rereading the Mercy chapter as well as Alayne.

Edited to add: Elia could be the terrifying Snapper, but for another reason. Since Arya's sword is named Needle and Elia was slaughtered, perhaps she's the seamstress for being stabbed with needles.

There is something about women with needles and we should probably be paying attention to this. We have Arya, the click-click-click of Old Nan, the Snapper, Tyene and her embroidery, Mirri sewing Drogo's wound and Asha "knitting" a kingdom. Maybe a play on the Fates or Weird Sisters.

[LynnS]

"The nightmare Ned remembers from the fall of Kingslanding."

George RR Martin on Ned Stark's Mistake - YouTube

[Melifeather]

On 8/5/2021 at 11:59 AM, LynnS said:

I don't have cable so I wait for stuff to come out on DVD.  I've been watching Season One of "The Great" an occassionaly true story*. A monty python-ish satire of Catherine the Great.  And Star Trek Discovery season 3, which is damn tear-jerky.  Sniff, sniff. 

THE GREAT Trailer (2020) Elle Fanning, Nicholas Hoult Movie - YouTube

I've just finished binge watching this show. It was fabulous and I loved it! 

[LynnS]

13 minutes ago, Melifeather said:

I've just finished binge watching this show. It was fabulous and I loved it! 

Great acting.  I laughed my head off.  Nicholas Hoult played in "About a Boy".  Did you recognize him grown up?  The hat wigs killed me and the tea dance.   General Velementov lusting after Catherine was both hilarious and sad.  That prosthetic belly of his wasn't always the same shape in every scene.  The physical acting was fantastic.   There is this occasional thing with Peter where you see what his mother saw, something missing, cold and calculated and you wonder if the dunce is an act..  

[LynnS]

Well I've talked myself into thinking that Ser Shadrich is Howland Reed.   I've been wondering for a while how Martin would introduce him in the next book.  I doubt he will come striding out of the Marshes to answer all our question.  So introducing him as a character that is reminiscent of the KotLT would be an interesting choice.

A mouse with wings would be a silly sight is a callback to Harrenhall and the defunct bat sigil.  Was the KotLT also a silly sight?  Is that why the old gods were laughing?

We've talked about der fledermaus before but I wonder if the mad mouse is modeled after another of Martin's influences - Batman, a hero in disguise who swears vengeance against criminals.  

I have been thrown off by the Shady Glen that nobody can quite locate.  This bit from Meera and Jojen has always seemed strange:

 

Quote

A Storm of Swords - Bran II

"If ice can burn," said Jojen in his solemn voice, "then love and hate can mate. Mountain or marsh, it makes no matter. The land is one."

"One," his sister agreed, "but over wrinkled."

This bit about mountain and marsh implies they are one in the same.  Indeed, Ser Shadrich's shield of bendy brown and blue represents earth and water, which is straight or of the crannogman's oath.  These colors also feature in the sigil of House Wull and we learn from Meera, that Howland fought beside Theo Wull during Robert's Rebellion.  

And so we have a connection to the shady glens of the mountain tribes.  Perhaps it was Theo Wull who made Ser Shadrich a knight.  Not a knight of House Wull but of the Shady Glen.  Ser Shadrich would be Howland in his Batman personna, a knight of the mountain clans.

Certainly Ser Shadrich's height and age are correct even down to being over wrinkled.

[Tucu]

2 hours ago, LynnS said:

Well I've talked myself into thinking that Ser Shadrich is Howland Reed.   I've been wondering for a while how Martin would introduce him in the next book.  I doubt he will come striding out of the Marshes to answer all our question.  So introducing him as a character that is reminiscent of the KotLT would be an interesting choice.

A mouse with wings would be a silly sight is a callback to Harrenhall and the defunct bat sigil.  Was the KotLT also a silly sight?  Is that why the old gods were laughing?

We've talked about der fledermaus before but I wonder if the mad mouse is modeled after another of Martin's influences - Batman, a hero in disguise who swears vengeance against criminals.  

I have been thrown off by the Shady Glen that nobody can quite locate.  This bit from Meera and Jojen has always seemed strange:

 

This bit about mountain and marsh implies they are one in the same.  Indeed, Ser Shadrich's shield of bendy brown and blue represents earth and water, which is straight or of the crannogman's oath.  These colors also feature in the sigil of House Wull and we learn from Meera, that Howland fought beside Theo Wull during Robert's Rebellion.  

And so we have a connection to the shady glens of the mountain tribes.  Perhaps it was Theo Wull who made Ser Shadrich a knight.  Not a knight of House Wull but of the Shady Glen.  Ser Shadrich would be Howland in his Batman personna, a knight of the mountain clans.

Certainly Ser Shadrich's height and age are correct even down to being over wrinkled.

From the Wheel of Time - The Karaethon Cycle: The Prophecies of the Dragon:

Quote

There can be no health in us, nor any good thing grow,
for the land is one with the Dragon Reborn, and he is one with the land.
Soul of fire, heart of stone, in pride he conquers, forcing the proud to yield.
He calls upon the mountains to kneel, and the seas to give way, and the very skies to bow.
Pray that the heart of stone remembers tears, and the soul of fire, love

A lot of links between ASOIAF and this prophetic poem: https://wot.fandom.com/wiki/Karaethon_Cycle

Quote

The Karaethon Cycle is a compilation of prophecies concerning the Dragon. It was originally written in Old Tongue which makes the prophecies difficult to interpret

 

[LynnS]

10 minutes ago, Tucu said:

From the Wheel of Time - The Karaethon Cycle: The Prophecies of the Dragon:

A lot of links between ASOIAF and this prophetic poem: https://wot.fandom.com/wiki/Karaethon_Cycle

 

These prophecies sound more like Euron who means to break the earth and make himself into a god..

 

I've got nothing on Trouserless Bob right now.  I don't know where that is going.

[Tucu]

15 minutes ago, LynnS said:

These prophecies sound more like Euron who means to break the earth and make himself into a god..

 

I've got nothing on Trouserless Bob right now.  I don't know where that is going.

Your quote reminded me of the prophecies in the WoT and I Iooked them up. So many little similarities; for example:

Quote

The Seals that hold back the night shall weaken,
and in the heart of winter shall winter’s heart be born,
amid the wailings of lamentation and the gnashing of teeth,
for winter’s heart shall ride a black horse, and the name of it is Death

Quote

"...the prophecies say the Dragon Reborn will bring a new Breaking to the world..."

- The Eye of the World, Glossary