Heresy 237 The Ballad of Trouserless Bob Baratheon

[Black Crow]

32 minutes ago, Tucu said:

Jon links to the Corn King and Jon Barleycorn can also be traced to the Green Man and/or other seasonal deities. Maybe as the opposite; a King of Summer vs a King of Winter.

Oh absolutely. If we recognise Bob as the Horned God/King of Summer then it makes so much sense for Jon Snow to follow him as the King of Winter.

On another level of course, if it wasn't for it being concealed by the R+L=J red herring we'd be sitting around complaining that it is too obvious.

Continuity demands it, while on the other hand the Dragons threaten to destroy that seasonal continuity, and perhaps always have done by upsetting the balance. The Long Night/Long Winter followed by the dodgy seasons was and is unquestionably destructive, but why did it happen in the first place? As the tale is told by Old Nan, the Long Night came as an unwelcome shock. Its clearly implied by the stories that the seasons were normal before the Long Night came. What we are missing of course is the answer to why it came, but looking on the Fire and the Dragons as the threat which they really are, might it not be that the Long Night and what followed was a reaction to that threat and that the death and burial of Bob the Horned God offers a chance to restore the balance by ushering in the long missing King of Winter ["winter's got no King" says Osha] - restoration threatened by Azor Ahai and her Dragons 

[Melifeather]

The replacement of the Oak King with the Holly King was needed to "rule" over winter. A son of Winterfell was needed. The only debate is who Jon's parents were. I truly cannot see Rhaegar in this mix. Ashara was the "goddess". The woman everyone thought was so beautiful. I know popular opinion is on the side of Lyanna as Jon's mother, but I still think its Ashara with Ned as his father. Maybe we should explore House Dayne to see why Ashara would be preferable as the "goddess"? We know the Daynes have the magic sword Dawn. Jon wants his father's sword. Maybe Ice is missing for a reason? Dawn is needed to bring the dawn. The sword that Jon needs isn't his father's sword. It's his mother's.

[Black Crow]

1 hour ago, Black Crow said:

Oh absolutely. If we recognise Bob as the Horned God/King of Summer then it makes so much sense for Jon Snow to follow him as the King of Winter.

On another level of course, if it wasn't for it being concealed by the R+L=J red herring we'd be sitting around complaining that it is too obvious.

Continuity demands it, while on the other hand the Dragons threaten to destroy that seasonal continuity, and perhaps always have done by upsetting the balance. The Long Night/Long Winter followed by the dodgy seasons was and is unquestionably destructive, but why did it happen in the first place? As the tale is told by Old Nan, the Long Night came as an unwelcome shock. Its clearly implied by the stories that the seasons were normal before the Long Night came. What we are missing of course is the answer to why it came, but looking on the Fire and the Dragons as the threat which they really are, might it not be that the Long Night and what followed was a reaction to that threat and that the death and burial of Bob the Horned God offers a chance to restore the balance by ushering in the long missing King of Winter ["winter's got no King" says Osha] - restoration threatened by Azor Ahai and her Dragons 

Or to put it another way. Step back and look at the story as a whole. What is wrong with the world?

The seasons are screwed

How to fix it?

Restore the balance of the seasons

 

[Melifeather]

1 hour ago, Black Crow said:

Or to put it another way. Step back and look at the story as a whole. What is wrong with the world?

The seasons are screwed

How to fix it?

Restore the balance of the seasons

 

Of course this is where R+L=J fans step in and say Jon is the combination of ice and fire, but I counter that by saying Dayne + Stark is also a combo of south and north and Dawn (morning) and Ice (night).

[Black Crow]

16 minutes ago, Melifeather said:

Of course this is where R+L=J fans step in and say Jon is the combination of ice and fire, but I counter that by saying Dayne + Stark is also a combo of south and north and Dawn and Ice.

I'm content that Jon is the son of Lyanna, a son of Winterfell and has already been claimed by Winter to be its king, following Bob the Summer king to restore the balance upset by the Dragons

As to the R+L=J contention that Jon is the combination of Ice and Fire... and? What is that going to achieve and how? 

In any case, never in all the stories anent the Prince that was Promised prophecy and Azor Ahai has there ever been the remotest suggestion that the promised one/Azor Ahai will restore the balance/restore the seasons. Always without exception he she or it will be a mighty warrior who will smite mightily - and according to the Red lot at least - and bring about the triumph of Fire

[Melifeather]

7 minutes ago, Black Crow said:

I'm content that Jon is the son of Lyanna, a son of Winterfell and has already been claimed by Winter to be its king, following Bob the Summer king to restore the balance upset by the Dragons

As to the R+L=J contention that Jon is the combination of Ice and Fire... and? What is that going to achieve and how? 

In any case, never in all the stories anent the Prince that was Promised prophecy and Azor Ahai has there ever been the remotest suggestion that the promised one/Azor Ahai will restore the balance/restore the seasons. Always without exception he she or it will be a mighty warrior who will smite mightily - and according to the Red lot at least - and bring about the triumph of Fire

So are you saying Westeros doesn’t want a triumph of fire? 

[Melifeather]

Its the dualities that are important, thus the house of Black and White. A Dayne + Stark combo represents day and night as well as north and south.  They are two sides of the same coin whereas the fire of the Targaryens inserts an element of magic. The fire magic that the Targaryens represent were an imbalance just as much as when the white walkers were created with ice magic. They needed to be done away with or contained. Now that its apparent that ice magic has grown in strength again, the key is to eradicate or contain magic yet again without resorting to fire magic.

[Black Crow]

Something which is hampering this discussion is a reliable timeline. The story of the Long Night as told implies that once upon a time there was a proper Summer King/Winter King balance. So what upset that balance in the first place? Did the magic come from the Ice side, or was it a response to the Fire? I'm inclined to suspect the latter because the Dragons appear alien. We've spent a lot of time discussing the White Walkers and seem content that they were once human, but the Dragons aint and it would be good to know when they first appeared in relation to the Long Night.

[LynnS]

In the first part of this video, Martin talks about how he uses magic in ASOIAF and his tendency towards rational explanations.

George RR Martin on Magic in Game of Thrones - YouTube

I think the use of the red comet, as a herald for the birth of dragons, may be the place to start looking for a timeline.  If we can determine the period of the comet's orbit; then we can look for historical events, that coincide with comets appearance. 

I think the first Andal invasion commemorates the comet, in their use of the bleeding star as a religious symbol.  According to the maester's, the first wave of Andals, into Westeros, was potentially 6,000 years ago.   This seems to coincide with the strength of the Valryians pushing them out of their own lands and territories.

So, the comet's orbit would bring it close to Planetos every 6,000 years; dating the first long night and the story of the last hero to about 12,000.  That's the longest rational guestimate for a timeframe.  The orbit could be somewhere between 4,000 and 6,000 years.  So 8 to 12,000 years to fit with stories about the construction of the Wall.

 

 

[Melifeather]

3 hours ago, Black Crow said:

Something which is hampering this discussion is a reliable timeline. The story of the Long Night as told implies that once upon a time there was a proper Summer King/Winter King balance. So what upset that balance in the first place? Did the magic come from the Ice side, or was it a response to the Fire? I'm inclined to suspect the latter because the Dragons appear alien. We've spent a lot of time discussing the White Walkers and seem content that they were once human, but the Dragons aint and it would be good to know when they first appeared in relation to the Long Night.

It does seem odd, because the text isn't specific, but there are hints. IMO the cutting down of weirwoods to build Harrenhal brought the dragons in clear violation of the Pact.

I think humans were to blame for the white walkers and when I say humans I blame the ironborn - specifically the Grey King. The ironborn have two gods. One of water that they worship named the Drowned God and one they fear named the Storm God. Water and air are basically what the white walkers are made of. I suspect that the Black Gate is actually the Grey King, because when the Children helped the Last Hero defeat the Others the Wall was built. What better way to defeat a king of water and air than to freeze him in place? You have to descend a well in order to reach the Black Gate and its said the Grey King walked into the sea and descended to the watery halls of the Drowned God. The area north of the Wall is frequently compared to a sea.

It was also the ironborn that built Harrenhal and being of First Men blood they clearly broke the Pact when they cut down hundreds of weirwoods to use as rafters in the the castle. Ice magic was already contained in the Wall so the only magic left to deal with Harren the Black was fire magic.

[Tucu]

The dragons and the Long Night appear to be have a universal presence in the reality and legends of Planetos. The WWs seem to be mainly a Westerosi phenomenon. I am partially with Archmaester Fomas on this one: the WW/Others were probably a reaction to the Long Night

[Frey family reunion]

1 hour ago, Tucu said:

The dragons and the Long Night appear to be have a universal presence in the reality and legends of Planetos. The WWs seem to be mainly a Westerosi phenomenon. I am partially with Archmaester Fomas on this one: the WW/Others were probably a reaction to the Long Night

Yea, I tend to agree.  It's funny because the knee jerk reaction is to immediately dismiss Fomas' theory as incorrect because as a reader we think we've seen the Others/White Walkers and we  know that they couldn't just be another tribe of First Men.  

"That they became monstrous in the tales told thereafter" is the quote I keyed in on.  Perhaps the "Others" of legend were merely a different tribe of man that came into conflict with the First Men that ended up passing on oral and runic history.  As the stories were passed down from generation to generation the tale grew in the telling and the "Others" became monsters.

So if perhaps someone, or something wanted to reach into the dark subconscious of the human mind and pull out a boogeyman to terrorize humans, what would come out?  Probably something crafted along the lines of the oral history of the Others.  A story come to life.  Perhaps using ice magic.

[Tucu]

11 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

Yea, I tend to agree.  It's funny because the knee jerk reaction is to immediately dismiss Fomas' theory as incorrect because as a reader we think we've seen the Others/White Walkers and we  know that they couldn't just be another tribe of First Men.  

"That they became monstrous in the tales told thereafter" is the quote I keyed in on.  Perhaps the "Others" of legend were merely a different tribe of man that came into conflict with the First Men that ended up passing on oral and runic history.  As the stories were passed down from generation to generation the tale grew in the telling and the "Others" became monsters.

So if perhaps someone, or something wanted to reach into the dark subconscious of the human mind and pull out a boogeyman to terrorize humans, what would come out?  Probably something crafted along the lines of the oral history of the Others.  A story come to life.  Perhaps using ice magic.

GRRM is teasing us with the mountain clans. They show up at Deepwood Motte disguised as trees (like the Wood Dancers)

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Then she realized that trees were creeping closer. "Oho," she laughed, "these mountain goats have cloaked themselves in pine boughs." The woods were on the move, creeping toward the castle like a slow green tide. She thought back to a tale she had heard as a child, about the children of the forest and their battles with the First Men, when the greenseers turned the trees to warriors.

Once the storm hit them in the march they start acquiring WW characteristics and Stannis army is described as a column of snowmen.

They go lightly on the snow and are covered in ice:

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Bear-paws, they called them, queer elongated things made with bent wood and leather strips. Lashed onto the bottoms of their boots, the things somehow allowed them to walk on top of the snow without breaking through the crust and sinking down to their thighs

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The thick beards of the wolves were soon caked with ice where their breath had frozen

And they fare much better than the southerners:

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The southerners looked a sorry lot, Asha thought—gaunt and hollow-cheeked, some pale and sick, others with red and wind-scoured faces. By contrast the northmen seemed hale and healthy, big ruddy men with beards as thick as bushes, clad in fur and iron. They might be cold and hungry too, but the marching had gone easier for them, with their garrons and their bear-paws.

 

[Black Crow]

While we have actually seen the White Walkers and know that they are not Northmen, it is perhaps worth remembering that in ordinary speech the term Others is at once both vague and specific. Its specific in that it means the other lot across the way, not our lot, while vague in that it doesn't actually identify them by name and could and presumably does apply not just to the [named] White Walkers/Shadows, but to all the other things that may go bump in the night as well.

[Frey family reunion]

5 hours ago, Black Crow said:

While we have actually seen the White Walkers and know that they are not Northmen, it is perhaps worth remembering that in ordinary speech the term Others is at once both vague and specific. Its specific in that it means the other lot across the way, not our lot, while vague in that it doesn't actually identify them by name and could and presumably does apply not just to the [named] White Walkers/Shadows, but to all the other things that may go bump in the night as well.

The terms are currently interchangeable as we know from this exchange:

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Fear is for the long night, when the sun hides its face for years at a time, and little children are born and live and die all in darkness while the direwolves grow gaunt and hungry, and the white walkers move through the woods."

"You mean the Others," Bran said querulously.

"The Others," Old Nan agreed.

But who knowns how long they have been interchangeable?

At what point in the line of oral telling do the "Others" become the "White Walkers"?

Kind of like one theory of the origin of the "Ogre" that it derived from "Hongrois" aka Hungarian.  So when did the evil Hungarian barbarians become the monstrous Ogres?

And today, if I wanted to make a monster that was highly recognizable as an Ogre, come to life, would I create an ancient Hungarian or would I create something that looks like Shrek?

[Tucu]

Not clear at what point The Others started to include wargs, giants, gouls, wildlings and other things. But the Old Nan's tales link them:

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He remembered the hearth tales Old Nan told them. The wildlings were cruel men, she said, slavers and slayers and thieves. They consorted with giants and ghouls, stole girl children in the dead of night, and drank blood from polished horns. And their women lay with the Others in the Long Night to sire terrible half-human children.

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"He was a wildling," Bran said. "They carry off women and sell them to the Others."

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"Warg," said Jojen Reed.
Bran looked at him, his eyes wide. "What?"
"Warg. Shapechanger. Beastling. That is what they will call you, if they should ever hear of your wolf dreams."
The names made him afraid again. "Who will call me?"
"Your own folk. In fear. Some will hate you if they know what you are. Some will even try to kill you."

Somehow some ancient practices become associated with The Others: stealing women, dealing with giants, hunting people, human sacrifice. Scapegoats for ancient practices that still survive in silence.

[Frey family reunion]

14 minutes ago, Tucu said:

Not clear at what point The Others started to include wargs, giants, gouls, wildlings and other things. But the Old Nan's tales link them:

Somehow some ancient practices become associated with The Others: stealing women, dealing with giants, hunting people, human sacrifice. Scapegoats for ancient practices that still survive in silence.

Down south in Crabclaw Point, they were known as Squishers:

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“Squishers?” Brienne gave him a suspicious look.”

“Monsters,” Nimble Dick said, with relish. “They look like men till you get close, but their heads is too big, and they got scales where a proper man’s got hair. Fish-belly white they are, with webs between their fingers. They’re always damp and fishy-smelling, but behind these blubbery lips they got rows of green teeth sharp as needles. Some say the First Men killed them all, but don’t you believe it. They come by night and steal bad little children, padding along on them webbed feet with a little squish-squish sound. The girls they keep to breed with, but the boys they eat, tearing at them with those sharp green teeth.” He grinned at Podrick. “They’d eat you, boy. They’d eat you raw.”

 

[Melifeather]

I agree that the Others encompass the wildlings, giants, skin changers, and wargs, but that doesn't mean that there never were actual white walkers too in ancient history. Old Nan said the first time they came was during the Long Night. She does call them Others, but she also said they hated iron, fire, and sunlight. Living humans don't fear those things, but wights and creatures made of ice would. More importantly they led hosts of the slain. We really haven't seen any humans leading the wights, well, I actually believe Mance and his wildlings led the wight army, but there isn't enough hard evidence to convince a wider audience. Then there's Old Nan's claim that the dead servants eat flesh. Is she talking about undead creatures such as Coldhands or will wights actually eat flesh?

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A Game of Thrones - Bran IV

"Well," Bran said reluctantly, "yes, only …"

Old Nan nodded. "In that darkness, the Others came for the first time," she said as her needles went click click click. "They were cold things, dead things, that hated iron and fire and the touch of the sun, and every creature with hot blood in its veins. They swept over holdfasts and cities and kingdoms, felled heroes and armies by the score, riding their pale dead horses and leading hosts of the slain. All the swords of men could not stay their advance, and even maidens and suckling babes found no pity in them. They hunted the maids through frozen forests, and fed their dead servants on the flesh of human children."

Her voice had dropped very low, almost to a whisper, and Bran found himself leaning forward to listen.

 

 

[Tucu]

42 minutes ago, Frey family reunion said:

Down south in Crabclaw Point, they were known as Squishers:

 

The Squisher-like Sistermen used to sacrifice deformed children (like dwarfs) to their gods:

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"At his son's hand, aye." The lord took a drink of beer. "When there were kings on the Sisters, we did not suffer dwarfs to live. We cast them all into the sea, as an offering to the gods. The septons made us stop that. A pack of pious fools. Why would the gods give a man such a shape but to mark him as a monster?"

Funny coming from a family with the "mark"

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When Davos saw her hand, he stared. Lord Godric did not fail to make note of it. "Aye, she has the mark. Like all Borrells, for five thousand years

 

[Melifeather]

The wildling have a tradition of burning their dead. Obviously that wasn't always the case, because there are also graves north of the Wall. But what other reason would there be for burning the dead if its not to prevent their bodies from rising as a wight? Magic exists north of the Wall and rides the cold air, so if the white walkers are of Bran's recent making and are made to look like the scary stories, then what are the ancient texts describing when it documents conditions for when the Others come? It obviously isn't describing anything human.

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A Feast for Crows - Samwell I

"Long ago," Jon broke in. "What about the Others?"

"I found mention of dragonglass. The children of the forest used to give the Night's Watch a hundred obsidian daggers every year, during the Age of Heroes. The Others come when it is cold, most of the tales agree. Or else it gets cold when they come. Sometimes they appear during snowstorms and melt away when the skies clear. They hide from the light of the sun and emerge by night . . . or else night falls when they emerge. Some stories speak of them riding the corpses of dead animals. Bears, direwolves, mammoths, horses, it makes no matter, so long as the beast is dead. The one that killed Small Paul was riding a dead horse, so that part's plainly true. Some accounts speak of giant ice spiders too. I don't know what those are. Men who fall in battle against the Others must be burned, or else the dead will rise again as their thralls."

"We knew all this. The question is, how do we fight them?"

 

Sam understood the word "Other" to fit with whatever it was that killed Small Paul:

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A Storm of Swords - Samwell I

"Get away!" Grenn took a step, thrusting the torch out before him. "Away, or you burn." He poked at it with the flames.

The Other's sword gleamed with a faint blue glow. It moved toward Grenn, lightning quick, slashing. When the ice blue blade brushed the flames, a screech stabbed Sam's ears sharp as a needle. The head of the torch tumbled sideways to vanish beneath a deep drift of snow, the fire snuffed out at once. And all Grenn held was a short wooden stick. He flung it at the Other, cursing, as Small Paul charged in with his axe.

The fear that filled Sam then was worse than any fear he had ever felt before, and Samwell Tarly knew every kind of fear. "Mother have mercy," he wept, forgetting the old gods in his terror. "Father protect me, oh oh . . ." His fingers found his dagger and he filled his hand with that.

 

Sam didn't call the thing that killed Small Paul a wight. He called him an Other.

Edited to add: right away in the Prologue the author calls the white walkers "Others".:

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A Game of Thrones - Prologue

The woods gave answer: the rustle of leaves, the icy rush of the stream, a distant hoot of a snow owl.

The Others made no sound.

Will saw movement from the corner of his eye. Pale shapes gliding through the wood. He turned his head, glimpsed a white shadow in the darkness. Then it was gone. Branches stirred gently in the wind, scratching at one another with wooden fingers. Will opened his mouth to call down a warning, and the words seemed to freeze in his throat. Perhaps he was wrong. Perhaps it had only been a bird, a reflection on the snow, some trick of the moonlight. What had he seen, after all?