Heresy 237 The Ballad of Trouserless Bob Baratheon

[Black Crow]

2 hours ago, Tucu said:

Ice&Fire at a geological timescale :-)

Exactly so actually.

The area was once highly volcanic and there are a number of basalt plugs, including but not confined to the present sites of Stirling and Edinburgh castles. Then moving forward at least one Ice Age saw glaciers expose the basalt plugs by grinding away the slopes of the dead volcanoes. Then move forward a bit further and the Storegga Slide [the original Hammer of the Waters] drowned the glacial valleys to create the bogs between the lumps of basalt and the plugs. 

[alienarea]

What I don't understand is that apparently GRRM uses all kinds of sources (Troy, War of the Roses, Heart of Darkness, ...) for inspiration but cannot seem to find one to continue?

[Melifeather]

10 English landmarks that are actually ancient/dormant volcanoes

The one I found most interesting were the hexagon shaped basalt. Perhaps the basalt blocks at Moat Cailin are only remnants of volcanoes and were always naturally occurring....formed by nature.

[Melifeather]

4 minutes ago, alienarea said:

What I don't understand is that apparently GRRM uses all kinds of sources (Troy, War of the Roses, Heart of Darkness, ...) for inspiration but cannot seem to find one to continue?

Because he's making his own story and not just retelling a familiar story with different characters. Its a jumble of historic events and other things that he likes, like comic book characters and story lines, as well as inspirations drawn from mythological characters. Its like the saying there is nothing new under the sun. Its all been seen before so why not try to remake these old stories and twist them in unexpected ways?

[Tucu]

3 hours ago, Melifeather said:

10 English landmarks that are actually ancient/dormant volcanoes

The one I found most interesting were the hexagon shaped basalt. Perhaps the basalt blocks at Moat Cailin are only remnants of volcanoes and were always naturally occurring....formed by nature.

Dverghamrar and Stuðlagil Canyon in Iceland look amazingly man-made.

 

[Black Crow]

42 minutes ago, Melifeather said:

10 English landmarks that are actually ancient/dormant volcanoes

The one I found most interesting were the hexagon shaped basalt. Perhaps the basalt blocks at Moat Cailin are only remnants of volcanoes and were always naturally occurring....formed by nature.

Yes, I think that's very likely the case and that while they may have been "improved" by men in places the "ruins" are pretty largely comprised of naturally occurring basalt left-overs. There's certainly a tendency in Britain [and I assume the rest of Europe as well] for such rock formations to be named as castles, towers and so on.

Stepping aside slightly. If Moat Caillin was in fact originally a natural formation formed first by volcanic activity and then glaciation, what is the difference between the Long Night and an Ice Age or mini-Ice Age ?

[alienarea]

14 hours ago, Melifeather said:

Because he's making his own story and not just retelling a familiar story with different characters. Its a jumble of historic events and other things that he likes, like comic book characters and story lines, as well as inspirations drawn from mythological characters. Its like the saying there is nothing new under the sun. Its all been seen before so why not try to remake these old stories and twist them in unexpected ways?

I understand this and was a bit ironic mixed with sarcasm.

GRRM's way of working reminds me a lot of my PeopleSoft bootcamp, we were told that we didn't have to worry to create new things because everything is there as already. Steal, lie, cheat.

I think I voiced it now and then, but maybe he realized ADwD is the perfect end for the story. Not spelling things out and leaving things ambigious.

 

[Black Crow]

Anent the unresolved ambiguities Moat Caillin, as discussed above is a very good example. GRRM has talked a lot about his world building and the history and mythology which he has created for Westeros, particularly citing Bran the Builder

Moat Caillin as we're "told" in text requires us to imagine a Westeros inhabited by a civilisation capable of building a massive castle using huge [cottage sized] blocks hewn from basalt and then otherwise disappearing without trace. Did that civilisation and heroic  technical skills exist? We are dealing after all with High Fantasy and a world of magic. Or is the "castle" of Moat Caillin to be reckoned with the Giants Causeway in Ireland?

[Black Crow]

19 hours ago, alienarea said:

What I don't understand is that apparently GRRM uses all kinds of sources (Troy, War of the Roses, Heart of Darkness, ...) for inspiration but cannot seem to find one to continue?

I think that the problem may be that while he has many good sources of inspiration/models, he may be having difficulty in weaving them all into a satisfactory conclusion especially as the story expands to incorporate more of them.

Ultimately, while its immense fun to identify those more unlikely sources, such as the Heart of Darkness it may be more productive in the long term to identify those particular themes which offer a way forward. While on the one hand Moat Caillin may offer a cautionary tale anent placing too much stock on Westerosi history [let alone the history and mythology of Essos and beyond] on the other hand there are clues, which although not as tangible as supposed ancient structures, yet point towards possible destinations.

In this category the Corn King traditions are perhaps the most significant. We are granted various and sometimes very explicit manifestations of this, such as the backstory of the Tattered Prince. We have known from the very beginning that something is wrong with the balance of the seasons, and we know from the Corn King traditions that such an outcome can the the result of the Summer King not going into the ground in due season. 

The Night's King of legend may in fact offer a clue to this if we treat Old Nan's chronology as being a bit dodgy. The Starks were once Kings of Winter. Did the one now remembered as the Night's King upset the balance and bring about the Long Night by not going into the ground when the time time and only when his brother brought him down in the Battle for the Dawn was the night ended and Spring returned?

That can't be the whole story, it doesn't explain the Dragons and the Wall, but it does make me wonder about Trouserless Bob. Tucu brilliantly identified him as the Summer King, but Cersei Lannister is thick as pig@#$%, so who was really responsible for putting him into the ground? And what of the new King of Winter?

[LynnS]

I like the notion that structures like Moat Cailin, (originally ten towers and a curtain wall) can be explained as natural occurrences of natural rock formation.  That would explain a lot.

Another of these rocky formations might be the causeway at Queenscrown.

Quote

A Storm of Swords - Bran III

"We have no boat, Bran." Meera poked through the leaves idly with her frog spear.

"There's a causeway. A stone causeway, hidden under the water. We could walk out." They could, anyway; he would have to ride on Hodor's back, but at least he'd stay dry that way.

The Reeds exchanged a look. "How do you know that?" asked Jojen. "Have you been here before, my prince?"

"No. Old Nan told me. The holdfast has a golden crown, see?" He pointed across the lake. You could see patches of flaking gold paint up around the crenellations. "Queen Alysanne slept there, so they painted the merlons gold in her honor."

"A causeway?" Jojen studied the lake. "You are certain?"

"Certain," said Bran.

Bran says that Old Nan told him, but did she tell him about the causeway?

Quote

A Storm of Swords - Bran III

Meera found the foot of it easily enough, once she knew to look; a stone pathway three feet wide, leading right out into the lake. She took them out step by careful step, probing ahead with her frog spear. They could see where the path emerged again, climbing from the water onto the island and turning into a short flight of stone steps that led to the holdfast door.

Path, steps, and door were in a straight line, which made you think the causeway ran straight, but that wasn't so. Under the lake it zigged and zagged, going a third of a way around the island before jagging back. The turns were treacherous, and the long path meant that anyone approaching would be exposed to arrow fire from the tower for a long time. The hidden stones were slimy and slippery too; twice Hodor almost lost his footing and shouted "HODOR!" in alarm before regaining his balance. The second time scared Bran badly. If Hodor fell into the lake with him in his basket, he could well drown, especially if the huge stableboy panicked and forgot that Bran was there, the way he did sometimes. Maybe we should have stayed at the inn, under the apple tree, he thought, but by then it was too late.

I question where Bran gets such intimate knowledge of things he hasn't yet seen.

Quote

A Game of Thrones - Catelyn VIII

Just beyond, through the mists, she glimpsed the walls and towers of Moat Cailin … or what remained of them. Immense blocks of black basalt, each as large as a crofter's cottage, lay scattered and tumbled like a child's wooden blocks, half-sunk in the soft boggy soil. Nothing else remained of a curtain wall that had once stood as high as Winterfell's. The wooden keep was gone entirely, rotted away a thousand years past, with not so much as a timber to mark where it had stood. All that was left of the great stronghold of the First Men were three towers … three where there had once been twenty, if the taletellers could be believed.

How does Bran come by his certain knowledge of things?

 

[LynnS]

Circling back briefly to Ser Shadrich.  Jaime takes the shield of House Lothston so he can travel incognito:

Quote

A Storm of Swords - Jaime VI

Lord Bolton had accoutred him as a knight, preferring to ignore the missing hand that made such warlike garb a travesty. Jaime rode with sword and dagger on his belt, shield and helm hung from his saddle, chainmail under a dark brown surcoat. He was not such a fool as to show the lion of Lannister on his arms, though, nor the plain white blazon that was his right as a Sworn Brother of the Kingsguard. He found an old shield in the armory, battered and splintered, the chipped paint still showing most of the great black bat of House Lothston upon a field of silver and gold. The Lothstons held Harrenhal before the Whents and had been a powerful family in their day, but they had died out ages ago, so no one was likely to object to him bearing their arms. He would be no one's cousin, no one's enemy, no one's sworn sword . . . in sum, no one.

He passes the shield onto Brienne:

Quote

A Feast for Crows - Brienne I

"The likes of me?" Brienne was uncertain what he meant.

Ser Illifer crooked a bony finger at her shield. Though its paint was cracked and peeling, the device it bore showed plain: a black bat on a field divided bendwise, silver and gold. "You bear a liar's shield, to which you have no right. My grandfather's grandfather helped kill the last o' Lothston. None since has dared to show that bat, black as the deeds of them that bore it."

The shield was the one Ser Jaime had taken from the armory at Harrenhal. Brienne had found it in the stables with her mare, along with much else; saddle and bridle, chain mail hauberk and visored greathelm, purses of gold and silver and a parchment more valuable than either. "I lost mine own shield," she explained.

Brienne encounters Ser Shadrich before she has had the shield repainted.  So is she the mouse with wings Ser Shadrich refers to:

Quote

The Winds of Winter - Alayne I

"Will you be seeking wings?" the Royce girl said.

"A mouse with wings would be a silly sight."

"Perhaps you will try the melee instead?" Alayne suggested. The melee was an afterthought, a sop for all the brothers, uncles, fathers, and friends who had accompanied the competitors to the Gates of the Moon to see them win their silver wings, but there would be prizes for the champions, and a chance to win ransoms.

 

[LynnS]

Another aside since we are coming to the end of this thread.... Bran is referred to as the winged wolf and the 3EC tells him there is more than one type of wing.  

Here is Sansa also referred to a wolf with wings:

Quote

A Storm of Swords - Arya XIII

"What wife?"

"I forgot, you've been hiding under a rock. The northern girl. Winterfell's daughter. We heard she killed the king with a spell, and afterward changed into a wolf with big leather wings like a bat, and flew out a tower window. But she left the dwarf behind and Cersei means to have his head."

That's stupid, Arya thought. Sansa only knows songs, not spells, and she'd never marry the Imp.

Bat Myths and Folktales from Around the World - #FolkloreThursday

Perusing the symbolism and mythology of bats; they are liminal creatures coming out at dusk, associated with death nd dying; emerging from caves (earth mother) and I wonder if Sansa is being set up as the next corpse queen.  The bat is also considered a trickster character.

[Matthew.]

On 8/14/2021 at 6:51 AM, Black Crow said:

Moat Caillin as we're "told" in text requires us to imagine a Westeros inhabited by a civilisation capable of building a massive castle using huge [cottage sized] blocks hewn from basalt and then otherwise disappearing without trace. Did that civilisation and heroic  technical skills exist? We are dealing after all with High Fantasy and a world of magic. Or is the "castle" of Moat Caillin to be reckoned with the Giants Causeway in Ireland?

I suppose how much of a curiosity Moat Cailin is would depend heavily upon what is true and what is mythification. Since the original premise was about unbalanced powers, looking for signs of "fire magic" (for lack of a better term) on Westeros is somewhat difficult, and things like Moat Cailin's blocks, the Seastone Chair, and references to 'dragonsteel' are the closest we can come to things that are not immediately suggestive of the CotF or the First Men.

That said, on rethinking it, even the most "extreme" reading of Moat Cailin  - which is to trust the legends in fairly literal terms - is perhaps not as much of an oddity as I originally thought. In this case, extreme would mean: there was an eighty foot high curtain wall (according to Catelyn's reference to Moat Cailin's wall once standing as high as the walls of Winterfell) composed of basalt blocks the size of cottages, and twenty towers, and that this structure existed before the Pact was formed.

In retrospect, even if the structure and its suggested time period were exactly as described, it could have been a joint effort between the CotF, any human allies they'd acquired by that time, and the giants--with the giants, in particular, being an important part of the labor equation. Perhaps it was an earlier (and failed) attempt to halt the destruction of the weirwood, while the Wall (and the nasty sentinels that 'haunt' the Haunted Forest) represent a more successful attempt, going back to the Heretical notion of the Wall as a demarcation line.

[Black Crow]

I'm for the simple life as always.

I suspect that in this case we may have an unusual but natural [basalt] rock formation and a set of myths that it was once a real castle [there are the remains of a wooden hall or keep within it] to set us off looking for a non-existent ancient civilisation by way of distracting from the real central story anent the King of Summer [Trouserless Bob], who has gone into the ground and the King of Winter [Jon Snow] who must succeed him, in despite of the efforts of the Dragons to destroy the cycle once and for all and usher in the fiery hell of an endless "Summer".

[LynnS]

1 hour ago, Black Crow said:

I'm for the simple life as always.

I suspect that in this case we may have an unusual but natural [basalt] rock formation and a set of myths that it was once a real castle [there are the remains of a wooden hall or keep within it] to set us off looking for a non-existent ancient civilisation by way of distracting from the real central story anent the King of Summer [Trouserless Bob], who has gone into the ground and the King of Winter [Jon Snow] who must succeed him, in despite of the efforts of the Dragons to destroy the cycle once and for all and usher in the fiery hell of an endless "Summer".

I'm not sure I understand why Mormont's Raven calls Jon the corn king.  The Holly and the Oak king is about the battle between summer and winter.

Holly King and Oak King - Wikipedia

I think the summer and winter kings are Jon and Bran.  The Holly and the Ivy Kings are both aspects of the Horned God.

Legend of the Holly King and Oak King (learnreligions.com)

[Tucu]

5 hours ago, LynnS said:

I'm not sure I understand why Mormont's Raven calls Jon the corn king.  The Holly and the Oak king is about the battle between summer and winter.

Holly King and Oak King - Wikipedia

I think the summer and winter kings are Jon and Bran.  The Holly and the Ivy Kings are both aspects of the Horned God.

Legend of the Holly King and Oak King (learnreligions.com)

My first thought went to John Barleycorn should die:

Quote

There was three kings unto the east,

Three kings both great and high,

And they hae sworn a solemn oath

John Barleycorn should die.

But there is also the real life barley kings of Hungary: the Árpád dynasty. Árpád was a Magyar warlord that became the first non-legendary Grand Prince of the Hungarians. His name is derived from their word for barley. His dynasty ruled the Kingdom of Hungary until it died on the male line in 1301. The line of kings continued in the female side and eventually merged with the Capets of Anjou and later the Habsburgs to rule the Kingdom of Hungary, the Holy Roman Empire and finally the Austro-Hungarian Empire until its dissolution. Around 1000 years of kings.

I am still trying to make sense on how GRRM would integrate a king barley from the female line into the story. The Durrandons->Baratheons would be good example.

[alienarea]

10 hours ago, Tucu said:

I am still trying to make sense on how GRRM would integrate a king barley from the female line into the story. The Durrandons->Baratheons would be good example.

Why do we always want him to integrate more obscure references? 

After ten years without progress he needs to deliver an original book or he will be remembered as the guy who sold out before completing his opus major.

[Tucu]

3 hours ago, alienarea said:

Why do we always want him to integrate more obscure references? 

After ten years without progress he needs to deliver an original book or he will be remembered as the guy who sold out before completing his opus major.

The reference is not really that obscure. Even the kings of House of Stewart/Stuart from James I can be traced to Árpád through marriage to Clan Drummond (who claim to be descendants of Árpád).

There is also Edgar Ætheling that was born in Hungary when Edward the Exile was under protection of the Árpáds; his mother was likely an Árpád. He was a pretender to the English throne after Hastings and later a kingmaker to the Scottish one.

[Melifeather]

Barleycorn isn't corn though. Its a unit of measurement about 1/3 of an inch or about the length of a single grain of barley. The story of John Barleycorn is about the dangers of alcoholism.

There is a book written by Barbara Talcroft titled the Death of the Corn King: King and Goddess in Rosemary Sutcliffe's Historical Fiction where she explores twelve of Sutcliffe's novels: 1) Warrior Scarlet, 2) Sun Horse, Moon Horse, 3) Song for a Dark Queen, 4) The Eagle of the Ninth, 5) The Mark of the Horse Lord, 6) The Silver Branch, 7) Frontier Wolf, 8) The Lantern Bearers, 9) Sword at Sunset, 10) Dawn Wind, 11) The Shining Company, and 12) Knight's Fee. 

Talcroft made note of kingship themes and accumulated a list that noted the number of times there were a Goddess, Sacrificial King, or a Maimed King with the Sacrificial King being a theme in nearly every single novel.

The analysis that Barbara Talcroft wrote about reminds me of the discussion we had long ago regarding Joseph Cambell's, The Hero with a Thousand Faces. Link to page for review...

 

[Tucu]

1 hour ago, Melifeather said:

Barleycorn isn't corn though. Its a unit of measurement about 1/3 of an inch or about the length of a single grain of barley. The story of John Barleycorn is about the dangers of alcoholism.

There is a book written by Barbara Talcroft titled the Death of the Corn King: King and Goddess in Rosemary Sutcliffe's Historical Fiction where she explores twelve of Sutcliffe's novels: 1) Warrior Scarlet, 2) Sun Horse, Moon Horse, 3) Song for a Dark Queen, 4) The Eagle of the Ninth, 5) The Mark of the Horse Lord, 6) The Silver Branch, 7) Frontier Wolf, 8) The Lantern Bearers, 9) Sword at Sunset, 10) Dawn Wind, 11) The Shining Company, and 12) Knight's Fee. 

Talcroft made note of kingship themes and accumulated a list that noted the number of times there were a Goddess, Sacrificial King, or a Maimed King with the Sacrificial King being a theme in nearly every single novel.

The analysis that Barbara Talcroft wrote about reminds me of the discussion we had long ago regarding Joseph Cambell's, The Hero with a Thousand Faces. Link to page for review...

 

Barleycorn is a corn if you follow the old British use of the word that included grains specially cereals (barley, wheat, oats). Corn=maize is a later change.

In the books it is Egg and Dunk that transform the crop into second names for a group of smallfolk:

Quote

Having three Wats in the company caused confusion when Bennis was trying to tell them what to do.

"We should give them village names, ser," Egg suggested, "like Ser Arlan of Pennytree, your old master." That might have worked, only their villages had no names, either. "Well," said Egg, "we could call them for their crops, ser." One village sat amongst bean fields, one planted mostly barleycorn, and the third cultivated rows of cabbages, carrots, onions, turnips, and melons. No one wanted to be a Cabbage or a Turnip, so the last lot became the Melons. They ended up with four Barleycorns, two Melons, and two Beans. As the brothers Wat were both Barleycorns, some further distinction was required. When the younger brother made mention of once having fallen down the village well, Bennis dubbed him "Wet Wat," and that was that. The men were thrilled to have been given "lord's names," save for Big Rob, who could not seem to remember whether he was a Bean or a Barleycorn.

Now there are two Barleycorns in the NW: Tom (ranger) and Russ (captain of the Storm Crow)