Heresy 237 The Ballad of Trouserless Bob Baratheon

[Melifeather]

2 minutes ago, Tucu said:

Barleycorn is a corn if you follow the old British use of the word that included grains specially cereals (barley, wheat, oats). Corn=maize is a later change.

In the books it is Egg and Dunk that transform the crop into second names for a group of smallfolk:

 

I'm quite positive that barleycorn is barley, particularly a single grain of barley. It can refer to any grain used in the production of alcohol. Yes, corn is used to make whisky, but barley is used to make beer - something that would have been much more common for peasants to drink.

[LongRider]

Copied from Melifeather’s post about Joesph Campbell,s Hero of a Thousand Faces.     

“Joseph Cambell's, The Hero with a Thousand Faces. Link to page for review..”

Quote

5) belly of the whale - a metamorphosis. A minor danger or setback.

8) the woman as temptress. The hero faces physical temptations.

 

That Jon is on a Hero’s Journey there is no doubt, and I can see that Bran could be on a Hero’s Journey (or maybe Anti-Hero Journey?) but what about Bob?

 Could he have been on a H J as well and failed?   Could becoming King and ruling from King’s Landing be his ‘belly of the beast’?  And plenty of ‘Woman as temptress’ around starting with Cersei.  Perhaps what happened to Bob is he failed these tests. 

[Melifeather]

1 hour ago, LongRider said:

Copied from Melifeather’s post about Joesph Campbell,s Hero of a Thousand Faces.     

“Joseph Cambell's, The Hero with a Thousand Faces. Link to page for review..”

That Jon is on a Hero’s Journey there is no doubt, and I can see that Bran could be on a Hero’s Journey (or maybe Anti-Hero Journey?) but what about Bob?

 Could he have been on a H J as well and failed?   Could becoming King and ruling from King’s Landing be his ‘belly of the beast’?  And plenty of ‘Woman as temptress’ around starting with Cersei.  Perhaps what happened to Bob is he failed these tests. 

I'm thinking Robert was an anti-hero:

1) a call to adventure - bargain w/o knowing. King Aerys demanded that Jon Arryn give up Robert and Ned. This was the call to adventure. Robert knew what he was getting into and he rose to the occasion. 

2) refusal of the call. Not only did he accept the call, it was his betrothed that was abducted and he was wroth that someone else would take her maidenhead. He claimed the main role of taking the throne thru conquest.

3) supernatural aid - meet the mentor. Did Robert have supernatural aid? Not that I'm aware of. 

4) crossing the first threshold - the 1st part of the adventure. Robert helped Jon Arryn take Gulltown and then went home to call his banners.

5) belly of the whale - a metamorphosis. A minor danger or setback. Robert's first setback was Ashford. He escaped and hid in Stoney Sept. He was injured in the attack, but recovered.

6) Initiation. The road of trials. The Rebellion is arguably his "road of trials" and he was rewarded with a kingship.

7) the meeting with the goddess. Receives items that will help him in future. Did he meet a goddess or receive anything that would help him in future? If anything he received Cersei and made a marriage alliance with a pit viper named Tywin Lannister.

8) the woman as temptress. The hero faces physical temptations. Robert never passed on any physical temptations - female or drink. He fathered, what, 16 bastards?

9) atonement with a father figure or entity with life or death power. His father figure, Jon Arryn, was murdered. He brought Ned Stark to Kings Landing to be his Hand and he was given the responsibility of caring for the realm. In effect, Ned had power over life or death.

10) apotheosis. Greater understanding is achieved. Robert never achieved greater understanding. He discouraged Ned from finding real truth and he preferred to go hunting, whoring, or drinking when faced with a problem.

11) the ultimate boon or reward. Robert's "reward" for his misrule was to be gored by a boar. His reactions slowed by poisoned wine fed to him by a catspaw of Cersei's.

12) the return, and in many cases a refusal to return to an ordinary world to bring the ultimate reward back to the masses. Robert couldn't care one fig about helping the people. He only wanted to hunt down threats of "dragon spawn".

13) the magic flight. Sometimes the hero has to use magic to escape in order to bring the ultimate boon to the ordinary world. I can't think of any magical escape.

14) rescue from without. Sometimes the hero needs help from some friend or outsider to escape, especially if wounded or weakened. Robert did receive help from Ned Stark, but his death only lead to Ned's death also.

15) the crossing of the return threshold. The hero finds it difficult to return to ordinary. Robert got fat and tried to stretch his armor so that he could squeeze back into it. He wished to participate in the tourney to honor Ned in an attempt to recapture some glory, but Ned talked him out of it.

16) master of two worlds. The hero achieves balance between material and spiritual. Robert never achieved balance.

17) mastery leads to a freedom from the fear of death. Living in the moment without worrying about the future or the past. I guess he did wallow in the present. Always drinking and having fun rather than giving the realm his attention.

[LongRider]

The point to me is Bob failed the Hero’s Journey.  He won the war and lost Lyanna, he gained a kingdom but found he really didn’t want it.

 Is he a tragic figure?  I would say no, but his excesses and being either uninterested or unable to rule caused tragedy for the Starks. 
 

 

[Frey family reunion]

On 8/16/2021 at 11:01 AM, LynnS said:

I'm not sure I understand why Mormont's Raven calls Jon the corn king.  The Holly and the Oak king is about the battle between summer and winter.

Holly King and Oak King - Wikipedia

I think the summer and winter kings are Jon and Bran.  The Holly and the Ivy Kings are both aspects of the Horned God.

Legend of the Holly King and Oak King (learnreligions.com)

I think that GRRM is incorporating so many different ideas into this story, that it’s not uncommon for single character to be an archetype for more than one myth.  

I wish Wolfmaid were here, because she’s much more knowledgeable than I am about the subject, but part of the ritual seemed to involve the King of Summer slaying the King of Winter, a process that repeats every year.  

The Corn King is a belief that crosses through many different mythologies involving a god or king who is sacrificed to bring a bountiful harvest or end a famine, or other thing plaguing their followers.  So certainly the “Holly King” and “Corn King” could both be ideas that incorporate this idea of death to end a famine, drought, plague, or winter.

I do find it kind of interesting that while the Oak is very well represented in AGOT, the Holly is not.  In fact the only reference to “Holly” that I could find is one of Mance’s spearwives who is “sacrificed” in order for Theon and fake Arya to escape.  She’s also depicted as quite a whore, who seems very interested in dallying around the Winterfell crypts.

[Frey family reunion]

Speaking of Robert as a symbol of Summer or the Oak King, I would note that he describes the boar that killed him as a “black bastard” perhaps furthering the symbolism of the fall of Robert to the rise of Jon.  

But Robert also talks about stabbing the boar in the eye.  A black bastard, stabbed in the eye could also be a reference to Brynden Rivers.  So perhaps Brynden Rivers could fit as our Holly King as well.  Now whether GRRM had the idea of Bloodraven that early in the series, 

[Frey family reunion]

Earlier I had referenced the book Shadrach in the Furnace by Robert Silverberg when we had discussed possible inspirations behind George’s Shadrich the Mad Mouse.  I assumed that GRRM was probably familiar with Robert Silverberg’s book since it was both a Nebula and Hugo award winning book back in 78.  What I didn’t realize is that George’s relationship with Silverberg is probably much greater than that.

Silverberg was the editor who compiled the anthology Legends, where George Martin was one of the eleven writers asked to contribute.  This was the anthology which introduced us to Dunk and Egg.  So it’s probably without question that George had been aware of Silverberg’s works and possible influenced by them as well.

In which case the basic premise of a “King/Emperor” looking to obtain immortality by casting his soul/spirt into the body of a younger “Prince” may be paralleled in our series.  

In Silverberg’s work, the Emperor’s plans were initially thwarted by his prospective Prince, either jumping from a window or being pushed.  

So I do wonder if we’re looking at a possible parallel between Bran’s storyline and the one in Shadrach in the Furnace.  That perhaps our dying “King” is Bloodraven looking for another powerful Greenseer to pass his soul/psyche along.

[Melifeather]

21 minutes ago, Frey family reunion said:

Speaking of Robert as a symbol of Summer or the Oak King, I would note that he describes the boar that killed him as a “black bastard” perhaps furthering the symbolism of the fall of Robert to the rise of Jon.  

But Robert also talks about stabbing the boar in the eye.  A black bastard, stabbed in the eye could also be a reference to Brynden Rivers.  So perhaps Brynden Rivers could fit as our Holly King as well.  Now whether GRRM had the idea of Bloodraven that early in the series, 

Neat observations! I can see both as foreshadowing.

[Black Crow]

18 hours ago, Melifeather said:

I'm quite positive that barleycorn is barley, particularly a single grain of barley. It can refer to any grain used in the production of alcohol. Yes, corn is used to make whisky, but barley is used to make beer - something that would have been much more common for peasants to drink.

Exactly so, an old Scots name for barley is Bere

[Black Crow]

15 hours ago, LongRider said:

The point to me is Bob failed the Hero’s Journey.  He won the war and lost Lyanna, he gained a kingdom but found he really didn’t want it.

 Is he a tragic figure?  I would say no, but his excesses and being either uninterested or unable to rule caused tragedy for the Starks. 
 

 

Up to a point, but I would also argue that Bob's ultimate failure was the direct result of his loss of Lyanna Stark and that in turn leads back to the question of who snatched her away and why?

[LynnS]

On 8/16/2021 at 3:19 PM, Tucu said:

I am still trying to make sense on how GRRM would integrate a king barley from the female line into the story. The Durrandons->Baratheons would be good example.

A corn is also a seed.  Something Mormont's raven constantly repeats in Jon's presence.  An acorn is an oak seed.  Which harkens back to Jon Arryn's death bed ramblings - "the seed is strong".  Lysa Arryn thinks this is about her own son and to the reader, it's about Trouserless Bob's verility and his offspring.  

Bloodraven also talks about the oak and the acorn with Bran, while Jon is depicted as an oak tree with a face.  One of the three trees he sees on his way to Molestown.  

Is the bird talking about Jon corn king or Jon acorn/oak king?  Bran will become the wierwood rather than the oak tree.

[LynnS]

I've wondered if Bloodraven is attempting to pass his soul to Euron given the blood-eye imagery and the storm god imagery that bedevils Tyrion.  The blood-eye in the sky and it's twin on the water. 

 

16 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

So I do wonder if we’re looking at a possible parallel between Bran’s storyline and the one in Shadrach in the Furnace.  That perhaps our dying “King” is Bloodraven looking for another powerful Greenseer to pass his soul/psyche along.

[Melifeather]

36 minutes ago, LynnS said:

A corn is also a seed.  Something Mormont's raven constantly repeats in Jon's presence.  An acorn is an oak seed.  Which harkens back to Jon Arryn's death bed ramblings - "the seed is strong".  Lysa Arryn thinks this is about her own son and to the reader, it's about Trouserless Bob's verility and his offspring.  

Bloodraven also talks about the oak and the acorn with Bran, while Jon is depicted as an oak tree with a face.  One of the three trees he sees on his way to Molestown.  

Is the bird talking about Jon corn king or Jon acorn/oak king?  Bran will become the wierwood rather than the oak tree.

A corn equating to acorn is puzzling when we’re inclined to peg Jon Snow as the Holly King. 

[Black Crow]

One of the the things that has bedevilled interpretation of this story from the beginning has been an obsession with "the one" - most obviously seen in the curious determination to prove that its all about R+L=J alias AA. Yet GRRM has been very clear that it's an ensemble piece about the children [pl.] of Winterfell and a couple of others. There is room in GRRM'sepic for Jon Snow to follow Trouserless Bob and become the lost King of Winter and for Bran to follow Bloodraven as the Raven King. Both [and others as well] are necessary to restore the balance. Its not a one man job

[Melifeather]

57 minutes ago, Black Crow said:

One of the the things that has bedevilled interpretation of this story from the beginning has been an obsession with "the one" - most obviously seen in the curious determination to prove that its all about R+L=J alias AA. Yet GRRM has been very clear that it's an ensemble piece about the children [pl.] of Winterfell and a couple of others. There is room in GRRM'sepic for Jon Snow to follow Trouserless Bob and become the lost King of Winter and for Bran to follow Bloodraven as the Raven King. Both [and others as well] are necessary to restore the balance. Its not a one man job

True, true. You don’t have to convince me. Jon could be a failed king. Funnily enough the raven’s “corn, corn” could be an exclamation of dismay as if one of Bloodraven’s plans went awry. 

[alienarea]

4 hours ago, Melifeather said:

and a couple of others

[Melifeather]

34 minutes ago, alienarea said:

where was the post from?

[alienarea]

1 hour ago, Melifeather said:

where was the post from?

@BlackCrow

I quoted his comment on your post and the system linked it to you.

=> The off-cycle seasons and white walkers are nothing but bugs in the weirnet. Windows has those now and then, too. 

[Melifeather]

3 minutes ago, alienarea said:

@BlackCrow

I quoted his comment on your post and the system linked it to you.

=> The off-cycle seasons and white walkers are nothing but bugs in the weirnet. Windows has those now and then, too. 

 Okay, now I get the joke!

[Melifeather]

While Black Crow is mulling over which topic to expand on in the next Heresy, I too was thinking of topics that maybe we haven't addressed fully. I thought of three that I'd like to know more about:

1) What the Starks Forgot

2) What Were Rickard's Southron Ambitions 

3) The Significance of the Royce's Bronze and Iron Armor