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Black Crow

Heresy 237 The Ballad of Trouserless Bob Baratheon

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28 minutes ago, LynnS said:

Why does Ned regret that Lyanna wasn't trained with a sword such that he approves of Arya training with a sword?

You'll need to quote chapter and verse, but the only possible context for such a remark would be that she died in a fight or at the very least was unable to fight off an attacker to save herself from abduction

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43 minutes ago, LynnS said:

Why does Ned regret that Lyanna wasn't trained with a sword such that he approves of Arya training with a sword?

I had this crackpot I guess in the previous thread which would explain.

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7 hours ago, LynnS said:

Would iron be preserved in a bog for 2 to 6 thousand years or would it corrode into nothing?

You just invented Schrödinger's iron :P

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18 minutes ago, alienarea said:

You just invented Schrödinger's iron :P

LOL!.  It turns out that iron, gold and silver do very well.  Along with bog butter and bog zombies ... er, bodies.

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32 minutes ago, alienarea said:

I had this crackpot I guess in the previous thread which would explain.

Oh.  That's why it's on my mind. :D  Let's have a go.

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2 hours ago, LynnS said:

Why does Ned regret that Lyanna wasn't trained with a sword such that he approves of Arya training with a sword?

I think Lyanna had the training (maybe partial), just not the permission to carry:

Quote

"Lyanna might have carried a sword, if my lord father had allowed it. You remind me of her sometimes. You even look like her."

 

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Posting this here for general interest.  Some fascinating insights into death cults and ancestor worship.  The meaning of "What is dead can never die" and "kill the boy and let the man be born".   The idea that the body doesn't contain a soul, but rather, the body is a consequence of the soul.  The Ironborn and white walkers come to mind.

Army of the Dead: The Koryos | Bronze Age Warfare and Folklore - YouTube

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8 hours ago, LynnS said:

Posting this here for general interest.  Some fascinating insights into death cults and ancestor worship.  The meaning of "What is dead can never die" and "kill the boy and let the man be born".   The idea that the body doesn't contain a soul, but rather, the body is a consequence of the soul.  The Ironborn and white walkers come to mind.

Army of the Dead: The Koryos | Bronze Age Warfare and Folklore - YouTube

I liked the parts about the cult of the ancestors and the visitation of these ancestors. Compare this with the Stark ancestors imprisoned in the Crypts; they can't visit and judge so their anger might have been growing for hundreds of years.

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Posted (edited)
30 minutes ago, Tucu said:

I liked the parts about the cult of the ancestors and the visitation of these ancestors. Compare this with the Stark ancestors imprisoned in the Crypts; they can't visit and judge so their anger might have been growing for hundreds of years.

As evidenced by the dead you are not supposed to see, showing up North of the Wall, to signal that something is very, very wrong.

What surprised me was the concept of killing the boy to let the man be born.  Straight out of Aemon's mouth to Jon.  And the notion that once you die, you can return to the body as an immortal who can't be killed again.  You join with the ancestors. That's the Ironborn creed.  It also sounds like the White Walkers 'policemen of the gods". 

 The beserker video is interesting too. :D

Edited by LynnS

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3 hours ago, LynnS said:

As evidenced by the dead you are not supposed to see, showing up North of the Wall, to signal that something is very, very wrong.

What surprised me was the concept of killing the boy to let the man be born.  Straight out of Aemon's mouth to Jon.  And the notion that once you die, you can return to the body as an immortal who can't be killed again.  You join with the ancestors. That's the Ironborn creed.  It also sounds like the White Walkers 'policemen of the gods". 

 The beserker video is interesting too. :D

He calls the Koryos "children of the forest". I wonder if this GRRM influence or if both authors shared some sources. The transition  children->children of the forest/wild pack->men->ancestors->wild hunt also caught my attention.

 

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GRRM posted a video where he describes his experience with the 1967 Chicago blizzard:

It seems he borrowed a lot for the Winterfell blizzard

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He has also spoken of this in connection with the Ice Dragon story, which of course precedes the present tale.

What's interesting about that story of course is that Winter and ultimately the Ice Dragon are not the evil big bad portrayed by our Mel and [ultimately] by the R+L=J crowd looking forward to the triumph of Fire.

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7 hours ago, Black Crow said:

He has also spoken of this in connection with the Ice Dragon story, which of course precedes the present tale.

What's interesting about that story of course is that Winter and ultimately the Ice Dragon are not the evil big bad portrayed by our Mel and [ultimately] by the R+L=J crowd looking forward to the triumph of Fire.

"Fire walk with me" leads to dwarves in the black lodge.

"Ice Ice Baby" leads to Vanilla Ice.

 

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Posted (edited)
Quote

A Game of Thrones - Arya II

"Needle wouldn't break," Arya said defiantly, but her voice betrayed her words.

"It has a name, does it?" Her father sighed. "Ah, Arya. You have a wildness in you, child. 'The wolf blood,' my father used to call it. Lyanna had a touch of it, and my brother Brandon more than a touch. It brought them both to an early grave." Arya heard sadness in his voice; he did not often speak of his father, or of the brother and sister who had died before she was born. "Lyanna might have carried a sword, if my lord father had allowed it. You remind me of her sometimes. You even look like her."

Quote

A Game of Thrones - Arya II

"Lyanna was beautiful," Arya said, startled. Everybody said so. It was not a thing that was ever said of Arya.

"She was," Eddard Stark agreed, "beautiful, and willful, and dead before her time." He lifted the sword, held it out between them. "Arya, what did you think to do with this … Needle? Who did you hope to skewer? Your sister? Septa Mordane? Do you know the first thing about sword fighting?"

All she could think of was the lesson Jon had given her. "Stick them with the pointy end," she blurted out.

Quote

A Game of Thrones - Arya II

He sounded so tired that it made Arya sad. "I don't hate Sansa," she told him. "Not truly." It was only half a lie.

"I do not mean to frighten you, but neither will I lie to you. We have come to a dark dangerous place, child. This is not Winterfell. We have enemies who mean us ill. We cannot fight a war among ourselves. This willfulness of yours, the running off, the angry words, the disobedience … at home, these were only the summer games of a child. Here and now, with winter soon upon us, that is a different matter. It is time to begin growing up."

"I will," Arya vowed. She had never loved him so much as she did in that instant. "I can be strong too. I can be as strong as Robb."

I think we can take some hints about what was going on between Lyanna and Rickard.  It was time for Lyanna to grow up, to become a Lady and give up the swordplay.  The running off, the angry words, the disobedience all something Ned sums up as wolf blood.

I think it likely that Lyanna ran off somewhere, to practice at swordplay with someone, and this when Rhaegar fell upon her.  There must have been someone to witness what happened and to bring that story back to her father; who then sent riders to Brandon and Hoster Tully.

Edited by LynnS

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Posted (edited)

Meera and Jojen's pledge (once again):

Quote

A Clash of Kings - Bran III

"I swear it by earth and water," said the boy in green.

"I swear it by bronze and iron," his sister said.

"We swear it by ice and fire," they finished together.

Swearing by earth and water conjures up the Hammer of the Waters; a time when the crannogmen joined with the Starks/Northmen to defeat the Andals.   

Swearing by bronze and iron seems to be a pledge to bear arms when called to do so.

Swearing by ice and fire is a bit more cryptic.  Could this have something to do with Torrhen Stark bending the knee to Aegon the Conqueror.  Could this be a pact of ice and fire to observe the forms but keep out of each others business.  To ensure that there is always a Stark in Winterfell.  When Torrhen bends the knee all his bannerman must do the same.

Was the pact of ice and fire broken when Aerys tried to eliminate House Stark?

Edited by LynnS

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, LynnS said:

I think we can take some hints about what was going on between Lyanna and Rickard.  It was time for Lyanna to grow up, to become a Lady and give up the swordplay.  The running off, the angry words, the disobedience all something Ned sums up as wolf blood.

I think it likely that Lyanna ran off somewhere, to practice at swordplay with someone, and this when Rhaegar fell upon her.  There must have been someone to witness what happened and to bring that story back to her father; who then sent riders to Brandon and Hoster Tully.

I don't know about practicing, or rather anything so "minor" as practicing with swords, rather I feel that she [and Brandon] were involved in something that ultimately got her killed. Think say something akin to anti-Nazi groups in Germany, such as the White Rose, and that in turn leads me back to Trouserless Bob. Was he also involved. Was that why Aerys demanded his head as well, and why afterwards Bob was so upset?

Edited by Black Crow

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11 minutes ago, Black Crow said:

I don't know about practicing, or rather anything so "minor" as practicing with swords, rather I feel that she [and Brandon] were involved in something that ultimately got her killed. Think say something akin to anti-Nazi groups in Germany, such as the White Rose, and that in turn leads me back to Trouserless Bob. Was he also involved. Was that why Aerys demanded his head as well, and why afterwards Bob was so upset?

I thought this was going to a dark place but I didn't imagine anything like this. :commie:

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9 minutes ago, LynnS said:

I thought this was going to a dark place but I didn't imagine anything like this. :commie:

Well it fits with the three quotes about Lyanna and it explains Bob's involvement.

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11 minutes ago, LynnS said:

I thought this was going to a dark place but I didn't imagine anything like this. :commie:

Its also worth noting that there's nothing in those quotes or anything else we've heard from the Stark side that remotely suggests a romantic involvement with that Prince Rhaegar guy

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