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Heresy 237 The Ballad of Trouserless Bob Baratheon

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Posted (edited)
13 minutes ago, Black Crow said:

Its also worth noting that there's nothing in those quotes or anything else we've heard from the Stark side that remotely suggests a romantic involvement with that Prince Rhaegar guy

No, I don't think so.  The kidnap/rape story might be true.  It's part of the family history that Luwin teaches Bran and it's probably what most people in the North believe as well.  Robert's obsession with her being raped hundreds of times is exaggeration.  But I can't get my head around Rhaegar raping Lyanna.   That's Aerys' bailiwick I think.  I'm starting to wonder if Rhaegar handed her over to Aerys.

Edited by LynnS

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Posted (edited)
41 minutes ago, LynnS said:

Meera and Jojen's pledge (once again):

Swearing by earth and water conjures up the Hammer of the Waters; a time when the crannogmen joined with the Starks/Northmen to defeat the Andals.   

Swearing by bronze and iron seems to be a pledge to bear arms when called to do so.

Swearing by ice and fire is a bit more cryptic.  Could this have something to do with Torrhen Stark bending the knee to Aegon the Conqueror.  Could this be a pact of ice and fire to observe the forms but keep out of each others business.  To ensure that there is always a Stark in Winterfell.  When Torrhen bends the knee all his bannerman must do the same.

Was the pact of ice and fire broken when Aerys tried to eliminate House Stark?

The ice and fire oath, the prince and the lady hiding in the tumbledown tower, the dragonfly moving among the reeds

Quote

Dragonflies or dragons?

This is how I build my long bets.

Edited by Tucu

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5 minutes ago, Tucu said:

The ice and fire oath, the prince and the lady hiding in the tumbledown tower, the dragonfly moving among the reeds

This is how I build my long bets.

One more piece: Jenny of Oldstones->House Mudd->mudmen->crannogmen

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8 minutes ago, LynnS said:

But I can't get my head around Rhaegar raping Lyanna.   That's Aerys' bailiwick I think.  I'm starting to wonder if Rhaegar handed her over to Aerys.

How about this:

Ned and Lyanna stay at Harrenhal after the tourney so they do not have to travel to Winterfell and back for Brandon's wedding. Or maybe Lyanna's wolfblood has her run away to Howland when she hears of Robert's lovechild. Doesn't really matter, but she stays in the Harrenhal area.

Enter Rhaegar. He's tasked to find the KotLT by Aerys, and runs into Lyanna. Because of something she does or maybe says, Rhaegar identifies her as the KotLT and has to hand her to Aerys. 

Brandon acts wolfish, and Aerys calls for Ned's and Robert's heads.

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, alienarea said:

How about this:

Ned and Lyanna stay at Harrenhal after the tourney so they do not have to travel to Winterfell and back for Brandon's wedding. Or maybe Lyanna's wolfblood has her run away to Howland when she hears of Robert's lovechild. Doesn't really matter, but she stays in the Harrenhal area.

Enter Rhaegar. He's tasked to find the KotLT by Aerys, and runs into Lyanna. Because of something she does or maybe says, Rhaegar identifies her as the KotLT and has to hand her to Aerys. 

Brandon acts wolfish, and Aerys calls for Ned's and Robert's heads.

The possible parallels between the tourneys at Whitewalls and Harrenhal might shed some light. We know that Rhaegar at one point intended to call a Great Council to replace Aerys; Harrenhal is the most likely event.

In Whitewalls we have an uncrowned dragon prince with a fiddle plotting to depose the king. In Harrenhal the mischievous prince has a harp instead but close enough.

In Whitewalls a mystery knight and a dragon egg ruin the plans with the assistance of some Old Gods' magic (via BR); at some point the prince is humiliated and ends as the "Brown Dragon" covered in mud. In Harrenhal there was a mystery knight assisted by the Old Gods and something ruin the dragon prince's plans. We are missing the dragon egg, maybe we should look among the reeds.

Edited by Tucu

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5 hours ago, Black Crow said:

I don't know about practicing, or rather anything so "minor" as practicing with swords, rather I feel that she [and Brandon] were involved in something that ultimately got her killed. Think say something akin to anti-Nazi groups in Germany, such as the White Rose, and that in turn leads me back to Trouserless Bob. Was he also involved. Was that why Aerys demanded his head as well, and why afterwards Bob was so upset?

So let me see if I understand.  You are saying that Brandon, Lyanna and Robert were part of anti-Targ resistance movement.  So why was Rhaegar travelling in the area?  Was Rhaegar part of this movement to remove Aerys from the throne or was this subterfuge and infiltration of the resistance group?  Was a meeting set up between Brandon and Rhaegar?  Did Lyanna ride out with Brandon and was she left on her own at some point?  Was Rhaegar's objective to take Brandon, but instead fell upon Lyanna?

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8 hours ago, LynnS said:

So let me see if I understand.  You are saying that Brandon, Lyanna and Robert were part of anti-Targ resistance movement.  So why was Rhaegar travelling in the area?  Was Rhaegar part of this movement to remove Aerys from the throne or was this subterfuge and infiltration of the resistance group?  Was a meeting set up between Brandon and Rhaegar?  Did Lyanna ride out with Brandon and was she left on her own at some point?  Was Rhaegar's objective to take Brandon, but instead fell upon Lyanna?

What I'm saying is that the three very useful quotes you provided, together with other snippets from Lord Eddard, either directly or through Bran establish a pattern of wild and wilful behaviour that goes way beyond her supposed eloping with Rhaegar Targaryen.

As to the wider picture I'm still struck by [a] the statement that some months after Harrenhal, Rhaegar and his companions set off on a journey that eventually ended in the abduction, and Trouserless Bob's involvement. 

Thus far in the story as told he doesn't have any involvement. Calling for Lord Eddard's head simply by way of extirpating the rest of House Stark is understandable, but why Bob ?

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19 minutes ago, Black Crow said:

As to the wider picture I'm still struck by [a] the statement that some months after Harrenhal, Rhaegar and his companions set off on a journey that eventually ended in the abduction, and Trouserless Bob's involvement. 

Thus far in the story as told he doesn't have any involvement. Calling for Lord Eddard's head simply by way of extirpating the rest of House Stark is understandable, but why Bob ?

Do you have an answer or any idea why?

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Posted (edited)

OK, this is starting to have a shape. 

Because Robert is involved and so is Ned and probably Jon Arryn.  Ned give the reason for the resistance when he tells Robert that they went to war was to stop the killing of children.   This predates going to war to get Lyanna back.

Rhaegar was involved in the resistance, if not the architect of it, so he knows who is involved.  Brandon is one of the ring leaders.

It isn't just Aerys who must be replaced, but Rhaegar is also at risk because he failed to do what he should have done long ago.  He now has to protect the crown and his own legacy.   So that means stopping the resistance and betraying Brandon.

Robert and Ned went to war to win the crown as Robert puts it; and the plan was to put Bob on the throne.  Lyanna was either involved to some degree or she is a casualty of this plotting and a hostage, a queen on the cevasse board. 

Ned (and Robert) reach  for the crown and Ned comes away with bloody on his hand:

Quote

A Game of Thrones - Eddard XV

Robert had been jesting with Jon and old Lord Hunter as the prince circled the field after unhorsing Ser Barristan in the final tilt to claim the champion's crown. Ned remembered the moment when all the smiles died, when Prince Rhaegar Targaryen urged his horse past his own wife, the Dornish princess Elia Martell, to lay the queen of beauty's laurel in Lyanna's lap. He could see it still: a crown of winter roses, blue as frost.

Ned Stark reached out his hand to grasp the flowery crown, but beneath the pale blue petals the thorns lay hidden. He felt them clawing at his skin, sharp and cruel, saw the slow trickle of blood run down his fingers, and woke, trembling, in the dark.

 

Edited by LynnS

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1 hour ago, LynnS said:

Do you have an answer or any idea why?

Bob might have been a front-runner in case a Great Council was called: Baratheon, Stark, Tully and Arryn. Lannisters were a wild card, but a humiliated Tywin was unlikely to vote for a child of Aerys

On the pro-Targ camp, Rhaegar was the lead but the vote might be diluted due to his enemies at court that might try to crown and control Viserys.

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Rhaegar is certainly out to protect/defend House Targaryen. That's why he died at the Trident, and whatever his stance on prophecies old and new he is still his father's son, not a dreamy hippie

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59 minutes ago, LynnS said:

Rhaegar was involved in the resistance, if not the architect of it, so he knows who is involved.  Brandon is one of the ring leaders.

I don't think he was involved at all. He was fighting against it and that was why he wanted the Council - to regain the initiative

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Posted (edited)
12 minutes ago, Black Crow said:

I don't think he was involved at all. He was fighting against it and that was why he wanted the Council - to regain the initiative

Ok.  But he knows who is involved?  Did he set up a parley with Brandon?   Or he happens to fall upon Lyanna by accident and decides to take her for leverage?

Edited by LynnS

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Posted (edited)
12 minutes ago, LynnS said:

Ok.  But he knows who is involved?  Did he set up a parley with Brandon?   

Doubt it, but negotiations with Tywin are a different matter

And then there's Rugen/Varys...

If Ned and Bob took up arms to stop the killing of children, were they the same children later referred to by Rugen/Varys ?

And are those children infants or a cover-name for something or someone else ?

Edited by Black Crow

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25 minutes ago, Black Crow said:

Doubt it, but negotiations with Tywin are a different matter

And then there's Rugen/Varys...

If Ned and Bob took up arms to stop the killing of children, were they the same children later referred to by Rugen/Varys ?

And are those children infants or a cover-name for something or someone else ?

Tywin I get, but I've lost the plot on the rest.

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3 hours ago, Black Crow said:

Thus far in the story as told he doesn't have any involvement. Calling for Lord Eddard's head simply by way of extirpating the rest of House Stark is understandable, but why Bob ?

Eddard and Robert are the two most likely candidates to take up Brandon’s cause after his death.  Eddard being the next oldest brother to Lyanna and Robert her betrothed.  

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16 hours ago, Tucu said:

The possible parallels between the tourneys at Whitewalls and Harrenhal might shed some light. We know that Rhaegar at one point intended to call a Great Council to replace Aerys; Harrenhal is the most likely event.

Except that Rhaegar laments that he never got around to calling one, so I think that leaves Harrenhal out.

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1 hour ago, Black Crow said:

Rhaegar is certainly out to protect/defend House Targaryen. That's why he died at the Trident, and whatever his stance on prophecies old and new he is still his father's son, not a dreamy hippie

Or, Rhaegar’s sole motivation is the fulfillment of the prophecies concerning his son, but realizes all is for nought if he allows his son’s kingdom to vanish.  Something that becomes a very real possibility after the Battle of the Bells

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OK well whatever Rhaegar was doing and Brandon wasn't a part of it; then Lyanna was off doing her own thing.  I think it's likely that the comparison between Arya and Lyanna applies.  Regardless of whether she was knowingly a part of the undeground movement or an asset because she was betrothed to Robert.  She seems more innocent to me and Brandon a lot more 'betrayed'.  

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1 hour ago, Black Crow said:

And are those children infants or a cover-name for something or someone else ?

Are you saying that children is a code word for different factions? Or key players?

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