Heresy 237 The Ballad of Trouserless Bob Baratheon

[LynnS]

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A Game of Thrones - Eddard I

"She was a Stark of Winterfell," Ned said quietly. "This is her place."

"She should be on a hill somewhere, under a fruit tree, with the sun and clouds above her and the rain to wash her clean."

"I was with her when she died," Ned reminded the king. "She wanted to come home, to rest beside Brandon and Father." He could hear her still at times. Promise me, she had cried, in a room that smelled of blood and roses. Promise me, Ned. The fever had taken her strength and her voice had been faint as a whisper, but when he gave her his word, the fear had gone out of his sister's eyes. Ned remembered the way she had smiled then, how tightly her fingers had clutched his as she gave up her hold on life, the rose petals spilling from her palm, dead and black. After that he remembered nothing. They had found him still holding her body, silent with grief. The little crannogman, Howland Reed, had taken her hand from his. Ned could recall none of it. "I bring her flowers when I can," he said. "Lyanna was … fond of flowers."

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A Game of Thrones - Bran VII

"Do you recall your history, Bran?" the maester said as they walked. "Tell Osha who they were and what they did, if you can."

He looked at the passing faces and the tales came back to him. The maester had told him the stories, and Old Nan had made them come alive. "That one is Jon Stark. When the sea raiders landed in the east, he drove them out and built the castle at White Harbor. His son was Rickard Stark, not my father's father but another Rickard, he took the Neck away from the Marsh King and married his daughter. Theon Stark's the real thin one with the long hair and the skinny beard. They called him the 'Hungry Wolf,' because he was always at war. That's a Brandon, the tall one with the dreamy face, he was Brandon the Shipwright, because he loved the sea. His tomb is empty. He tried to sail west across the Sunset Sea and was never seen again. His son was Brandon the Burner, because he put the torch to all his father's ships in grief. There's Rodrik Stark, who won Bear Island in a wrestling match and gave it to the Mormonts. And that's Torrhen Stark, the King Who Knelt. He was the last King in the North and the first Lord of Winterfell, after he yielded to Aegon the Conqueror. Oh, there, he's Cregan Stark. He fought with Prince Aemon once, and the Dragonknight said he'd never faced a finer swordsman." They were almost at the end now, and Bran felt a sadness creeping over him. "And there's my grandfather, Lord Rickard, who was beheaded by Mad King Aerys. His daughter Lyanna and his son Brandon are in the tombs beside him. Not me, another Brandon, my father's brother. They're not supposed to have statues, that's only for the lords and the kings, but my father loved them so much he had them done."

I think this was the promise Ned had to keep.

[LynnS]

After ten years of going around in circles, anent Jon's parentage; it seems to me that there really are only two options.  We are not given anything about physical characteristics for direction, other than Jon looks like a Stark.  So either Ned is Jon's father or Lyanna is Jon's mother. 

When Martin famously asked D&D about Jon's mother; to see if they had read the books;  that's not what he was testing at all.  Of course they had read the books.  What he was doing was testing their assumptions.  Because there are two possible answers to that question.  If Ned is Jon's father, who is the mother and if Ned is not Jon's father, who is Jon's mother?  D&D didn't even consider Ned and went straight for Lyanna.  This told Martin what he needed to know about the direction the show would take  Ned is safe, for now.

With Lyanna, all the various options don't seem to go anywhere and have tremendous holes and obstacles to get around.  With Ned, there really is only one choice.  Wylla is a lie he tells Robert .or a half-truth.  A lie couched in the truth because it can be verified that Wylla was Jon "milk mother" and nobody will question whether she is actually Jon's birth mother, rather than just his nurse maid.

After all the effort and energy put into' Lyanna is Jon's mother'; it would be disappointing if she wasn't in the end.  The idea that her child was stillborn, is unthinkable.

At this point, I'm ready to let Lyanna go and consider the implications that Jon is a son of Winterfell and Starfall. 

 

[alienarea]

4 hours ago, LynnS said:

At this point, I'm ready to let Lyanna go and consider the implications that Jon is a son of Winterfell and Starfall. 

There's this SSM that Ashara wasn't nailed to one place during the war.

Maybe Ashara told Ned where Lyanna is and they refreshed Harrenhal at this occasion?

I think that was maybe the initial concept, Jon could claim Dawn through this heritage and save the day. But that is tropish as hell.

Lyanna must have been alive after Rickard's and Brandon's deaths, unless we accept that Ned's conversation with her on her deadbed is a lie (or fabricated memory).

Both scenarios (Ned or Lyanna) have loopholes in logic.

[Black Crow]

4 hours ago, LynnS said:

After ten years of going around in circles, anent Jon's parentage; it seems to me that there really are only two options.  We are not given anything about physical characteristics for direction, other than Jon looks like a Stark.  So either Ned is Jon's father or Lyanna is Jon's mother. 

When Martin famously asked D&D about Jon's mother; to see if they had read the books;  that's not what he was testing at all.  Of course they had read the books.  What he was doing was testing their assumptions.  Because there are two possible answers to that question.  If Ned is Jon's father, who is the mother and if Ned is not Jon's father, who is Jon's mother?  D&D didn't even consider Ned and went straight for Lyanna.  This told Martin what he needed to know about the direction the show would take  Ned is safe, for now.

With Lyanna, all the various options don't seem to go anywhere and have tremendous holes and obstacles to get around.  With Ned, there really is only one choice.  Wylla is a lie he tells Robert .or a half-truth.  A lie couched in the truth because it can be verified that Wylla was Jon "milk mother" and nobody will question whether she is actually Jon's birth mother, rather than just his nurse maid.

After all the effort and energy put into' Lyanna is Jon's mother'; it would be disappointing if she wasn't in the end.  The idea that her child was stillborn, is unthinkable.

At this point, I'm ready to let Lyanna go and consider the implications that Jon is a son of Winterfell and Starfall. 

 

This, ultimately, is what its all about. In the beginning Trouserless Bob tools up and laments his lost love but then an alternative version appears. That lost love has a child which isn't his [enter Jon Snow] and we're encouraged to believe that Bob is delusional and that there was a romance involving Lyanna and Prince Rhaegar Targaryen. Discrediting Bob reinforces this version, which is the popular one bought into by the Mummers.

But there's a problem. Having bought into it and ignoring the fact that the question was framed around Jon's mother rather than his parents, the Mummer's Farce was predicated from the outset on the proposition that R+L=J and that therefore Jon was a lost Targaryen Prince and the true heir to the Iron Throne; hence the lame ending lamented by the Faithful because GRRM told the Mummers in Santa Fe how Jon Snow's story arc ended - and that it wasn't on the Tin Throne. Exactly what was revealed to them we don't know, but it cut them off from that keenly anticipated coronation.

In other words as we've discussed on these pages so many times before, R+L=J is a deliberate red herring and the ballad if trouserless Bob Baratheon is a part of that red herring.

The question then is what is the red herring hiding ?

[LynnS]

1 hour ago, alienarea said:

There's this SSM that Ashara wasn't nailed to one place during the war.

Maybe Ashara told Ned where Lyanna is and they refreshed Harrenhal at this occasion?

I think that was maybe the initial concept, Jon could claim Dawn through this heritage and save the day. But that is tropish as hell.

Lyanna must have been alive after Rickard's and Brandon's deaths, unless we accept that Ned's conversation with her on her deadbed is a lie (or fabricated memory).

Both scenarios (Ned or Lyanna) have loopholes in logic.

I'll go back again to the oath given by Meera and Jojen:  we swear it by ice and fire.  Curiously, this has an appearance in Drogo's pyre; where Dany lays the wood north to south, ice to fire.  She's sending Drogo to the stars.

What do we have in the sky in Westeros?  To the north, it's the ice dragon and the blue star in the eye of it's rider.  In the south the sword of the morning hangs in the sky with it's white star shining.  It seems this would be ice to fire, north to south.

If ice can burn, then love and hate can mate... the land will be one, to paraphrase Jojen.

So is this the ice and fire blood connection meant to join the lands north to south?  What is Howland's connection anent the events at the ToJ, given the oath of ice and fire.  Could it be that the office of the Stark in Winterfell and the fate of it's holder are connected or balanced by the office of the Sword of the Morning?  It's been sixteen years and nobody has taken up the office.  Now there are no Starks in Winterfell.  Ned's old dream filled with signs and portents has returned.

What does the sword of the morning have to do with the prophecy out of Asshai?

We are told that Howland knows too much to be revealed at this time.  Curiously we are also told that the words of House Dayne would give away too much.  I suspect we've already been given these words from the high septon himself, the man who's feet look like gnarled tree roots.  "Let the Wicked Tremble."

[LynnS]

1 hour ago, alienarea said:

Lyanna must have been alive after Rickard's and Brandon's deaths, unless we accept that Ned's conversation with her on her deadbed is a lie (or fabricated memory).

Yes, i agree she died after her father and brother.  If I go down the dark road; She was kept for a time in the Black Cells and raped by Aerys after he burned Rickard.  I think she was moved to a brothel by secret passageways as she came near delivery.  Possibly by Varys and so it would be worth revisiting Ned;s interactions with Varys with attention to tone and words.

[alienarea]

2 hours ago, Black Crow said:

The question then is what is the red herring hiding ?

We would need to know why Rhaegar crowned Lyanna as the Queen of Love and Beauty at Harrenhal.

Options:

1) He fell madly in love with her and didn't give damn about his marriage. He's the heir to the Iron Throne and just won the tourney, he can act like a dick.

2) He got aware of a conspiracy to get rid of Aerys, and this was a message to the conspirators to drop it.

3) Aerys got aware of a conspiracy against him and forced Rhaegar to send this as a message to the conspirators to drop it.

4) Rhaegar had decoded the PTWP prophecy and concluded he needed to produce a heir with Lyanna to save Westeros.

5) Rhaegar caught Robert cheating on Lyanna and wanted to offend him.

6) Something else.

2) and 3) are possible, but why include Lyanna? Arresting Jon Arryn would be a stronger signal.

5) is possible, but why abduct Lyanna later?

4) is what the RLJ gang believes, and it's a lame fantasy trope, so D&D went for it as well.

1) is actually the most realistic.

[Black Crow]

21 minutes ago, alienarea said:

We would need to know why Rhaegar crowned Lyanna as the Queen of Love and Beauty at Harrenhal.

Options:

1) He fell madly in love with her and didn't give damn about his marriage. He's the heir to the Iron Throne and just won the tourney, he can act like a dick...

1) is actually the most realistic.

He can certainly act like a dick and we must never forget that he is the son of Aerys Targaryen

On the other hand there is zero, zilch and nothing to connect him with Lyanna prior to that moment. The ONLY story we have is of her sniffling at a romantick song which he sang at a concert

I'm inclined to think that Trouserless Bob had the right of it. She was abducted by or on the orders of Rhaegar Targaryen and those lying ballad singers turned it into a romantick elopement

[Black Crow]

3 hours ago, Black Crow said:

The question then is what is the red herring hiding ?

Also, in, reply to Alienarea I don't think that's what's being hidden is the abduction as such. The R+L=J theory holds that Jon is the son of Rhaegar and therefore not only the lost heir to the tin throne, but the Prince that was Promised/Azor Ahai etc etc

Chasing that red herring in all its permutations is hiding the true significance of Jon as a son of Winterfell and the connection to Winter. After all, Sansa received the snowflake communion and shortly before he was stabbed a snowflake danced with Jon at the Wall.

[Tucu]

Someone mentioned in the past the symbolism of roses as silence and secret (sub rosa/under the rose).

An interesting bit is that this relates to the misinterpretation of symbols. "Sub rosa" is linked to Harpocrates. the Hellenistic god of silence and secrets ; this syncretic god started as a child Horus sucking a finger, representing the rising sun (Heru-pa-khered). The Greeks and Romans interpreted the finger in the mouth as a symbol of silence, thus Harpocrates became the god of silence.

 

[alienarea]

51 minutes ago, Black Crow said:

I'm inclined to think that Trouserless Bob had the right of it. She was abducted by or on the orders of Rhaegar Targaryen and those lying ballad singers turned it into a romantick elopement

If there was already a strong opposition to Aerys in place (and we have strong indications it was), the abduction of the daughter of a Lord, and the daughter being promised to / engaged with another Lord, could only be considered as an affront to said Lords. Kind of a declaration of war.

If Brandon hadn't rushed for King's Landing, Rickard and Robert and Jon Arryn would have raised the banners as well, wouldn't they?

Isn't it much more likely that a suspicously absent Tywin orchestrated Lyanna's abduction, to take revenge on Aerys and get Cersei on the throne with Robert?

Or maybe Oberyn?

Rickard himself? Why was Lyanna allowed to stay in Harrenhal?

Of course, we cannot outrule the Harp of Doom to be with stupid, too.

[LynnS]

1 hour ago, Tucu said:

Someone mentioned in the past the symbolism of roses as silence and secret (sub rosa/under the rose).

An interesting bit is that this relates to the misinterpretation of symbols. "Sub rosa" is linked to Harpocrates. the Hellenistic god of silence and secrets ; this syncretic god started as a child Horus sucking a finger, representing the rising sun (Heru-pa-khered). The Greeks and Romans interpreted the finger in he mouth as a symbol of silence, thus Harpocrates became the god of silence.

If Ned is bound to secrecy; my guess is that it has something to do with Aegon/young Griff surviving.

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A Game of Thrones - Eddard I

Robert's mouth gave a bitter twist. "Not well, in truth," he admitted. "I think losing Jon has driven the woman mad, Ned. She has taken the boy back to the Eyrie. Against my wishes. I had hoped to foster him with Tywin Lannister at Casterly Rock. Jon had no brothers, no other sons. Was I supposed to leave him to be raised by women?"

Ned would sooner entrust a child to a pit viper than to Lord Tywin, but he left his doubts unspoken. Some old wounds never truly heal, and bleed again at the slightest word. "The wife has lost the husband," he said carefully. "Perhaps the mother feared to lose the son. The boy is very young."

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A Game of Thrones - Eddard XV

He found himself thinking of Robert more and more. He saw the king as he had been in the flower of his youth, tall and handsome, his great antlered helm on his head, his warhammer in hand, sitting his horse like a horned god. He heard his laughter in the dark, saw his eyes, blue and clear as mountain lakes. "Look at us, Ned," Robert said. "Gods, how did we come to this? You here, and me killed by a pig. We won a throne together …"

I failed you, Robert, Ned thought. He could not say the words. I lied to you, hid the truth. I let them kill you.

 

[LynnS]

2 hours ago, alienarea said:

1) is actually the most realistic.

But it's not.  Some people think that the rose petals falling from Lyanna's hand was proof that Lyanna was so love sick, that she carried the crown of roses around with her until she died. 

Ned omits the word love from the gesture:

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A Game of Thrones - Eddard XV

Robert had been jesting with Jon and old Lord Hunter as the prince circled the field after unhorsing Ser Barristan in the final tilt to claim the champion's crown. Ned remembered the moment when all the smiles died, when Prince Rhaegar Targaryen urged his horse past his own wife, the Dornish princess Elia Martell, to lay the queen of beauty's laurel in Lyanna's lap. He could see it still: a crown of winter roses, blue as frost.

Ned Stark reached out his hand to grasp the flowery crown, but beneath the pale blue petals the thorns lay hidden. He felt them clawing at his skin, sharp and cruel, saw the slow trickle of blood run down his fingers, and woke, trembling, in the dark.

 

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Sub Rosa investigation:

Simply put, this is an investigation that is done in secret. The term sub rosa comes from the Latin language and means under the rose. More specifically, in the area of private investigative work, it means gathering information on people without them being aware of it.

 

Someone always talks. 

[Tucu]

29 minutes ago, LynnS said:

But it's not.  Some people think that the rose petals falling from Lyanna's hand was proof that Lyanna was so love sick, that she carried the crown of roses around with her until she died. 

Ned omits the word love from the gesture:

 

Someone always talks. 

He, that "Sub Rosa investigation" definition instantly reminds me of Varys, his little children and his flowers:

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He smelled as foul and sweet as flowers on a grave

 

[LynnS]

10 minutes ago, Tucu said:

He, that "Sub Rosa investigation" definition instantly reminds me of Varys, his little children and his flowers:

 

LOL!  Well we have a mad king ordering an investigation into the knight who was no friend to him.  That has to make everyone a little nervous.  Rhaegar didn't find out the identity of the knight; but did he find out something else?  Especially if some of Aerys' lords and knights are less than honorable.

[Black Crow]

16 hours ago, alienarea said:

If there was already a strong opposition to Aerys in place (and we have strong indications it was), the abduction of the daughter of a Lord, and the daughter being promised to / engaged with another Lord, could only be considered as an affront to said Lords. Kind of a declaration of war.

If Brandon hadn't rushed for King's Landing, Rickard and Robert and Jon Arryn would have raised the banners as well, wouldn't they?

Isn't it much more likely that a suspicously absent Tywin orchestrated Lyanna's abduction, to take revenge on Aerys and get Cersei on the throne with Robert?

Or maybe Oberyn?

Rickard himself? Why was Lyanna allowed to stay in Harrenhal?

Of course, we cannot outrule the Harp of Doom to be with stupid, too.

Oh I entirely agree and could have phrased myself better, but the point remains that Bob says she was abducted but we're "conditioned" to think that he's talking mince and that the ballad singers had the right of it.

However, among the Starks, the sad story is NOT cushioned by a romantic love story.

To the Starks Rhaegar was and remains the prime suspect.

Nevertheless, there are a couple of interesting anomalies. While Bob constantly laments his lost love and expresses himself about Rhaegar and the rest of the Targaryens, Ned doesn't seem convinced. There's that odd but significant waking and unfevered reflection that he hasn't thought of Rhaegar for years, notwithstanding Bob unburdening himself at Winterfell a short time before. This is extraordinary. Arguably, if he thought Rhaegar innocent he would not obsess over him as Bob did, but yet conversely if he believed that Rhaegar was Lyanna's lover and the father of Jon, then as I pointed out earlier every waking moment with Jon would have reminded him.

On the other hand I agree that Tywin Lannister must bear a considerable weight of suspicion. It was the murder of the Targaryen children by Tywin's man that first drove Bob and Ned apart, and when Bob came to Winterfell, Ned feared the Lannisters, not him. We're obviously in the coils of one of these mysteries, wrapped in an enigma with a false label kind of thing, and some serious peeling of the onion is called for.

Rhaegar is not, I suspect an innocent party, but Tywin I agree was an actor and may have deliberately carried things too far - if only to ensure that Bob married Cersei rather than Lyanna - but at the same time we can't ignore Rugen/Varys and his ongoing battle.

[Tucu]

17 hours ago, LynnS said:

LOL!  Well we have a mad king ordering an investigation into the knight who was no friend to him.  That has to make everyone a little nervous.  Rhaegar didn't find out the identity of the knight; but did he find out something else?  Especially if some of Aerys' lords and knights are less than honorable.

The Barristan chapters are a good place to mine the intrigues of the Red Keep. The two quotes for example:

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In King's Landing, bribes had been Littlefinger's domain, whilst Lord Varys had the task of fostering division amongst the crown's enemies

But Varys is really fostering division in the Iron Throne inner circle

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Perhaps by now he should have grown used to such things. The Red Keep had its secrets too. Even Rhaegar. The Prince of Dragonstone had never trusted him as he had trusted Arthur Dayne. Harrenhal was proof of that. The year of the false spring.

The memory was still bitter. Old Lord Whent had announced the tourney shortly after a visit from his brother, Ser Oswell Whent of the Kingsguard. With Varys whispering in his ear, King Aerys became convinced that his son was conspiring to depose him, that Whent's tourney was but a ploy to give Rhaegar a pretext for meeting with as many great lords as could be brought together. Aerys had not set foot outside the Red Keep since Duskendale, yet suddenly he announced that he would accompany Prince Rhaegar to Harrenhal, and everything had gone awry from there.

I also wonder if Barristan as the sole opposition to killing children that are hostage to the crown had a mirror during Robert's rebellion. His titles as the Queenguard, the Discarded Knight, the Kingbreaker and the Queen's hand points towards a timeless second narrative in his chapters.

[Black Crow]

12 minutes ago, Tucu said:

The Barristan chapters are a good place to mine the intrigues of the Red Keep...

"everything had gone awry from there" is particularly intriguing

[LynnS]

50 minutes ago, Tucu said:

The Barristan chapters are a good place to mine the intrigues of the Red Keep. The two quotes for example:

But Varys is really fostering division in the Iron Throne inner circle

I also wonder if Barristan as the sole opposition to killing children that are hostage to the crown had a mirror during Robert's rebellion. His titles as the Queenguard, the Discarded Knight, the Kingbreaker and the Queen's hand points towards a timeless second narrative in his chapters.

Varys and Pycelle:

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A Clash of Kings - Tyrion VI

Pycelle's breathing was rapid and shallow. "All I did, I did for House Lannister." A sheen of sweat covered the broad dome of the old man's brow, and wisps of white hair clung to his wrinkled skin. "Always . . . for years . . . your lord father, ask him, I was ever his true servant . . . 'twas I who bid Aerys open his gates . . ."

That took Tyrion by surprise. He had been no more than an ugly boy at Casterly Rock when the city fell. "So the Sack of King's Landing was your work as well?"

"For the realm! Once Rhaegar died, the war was done. Aerys was mad, Viserys too young, Prince Aegon a babe at the breast, but the realm needed a king . . . I prayed it should be your good father, but Robert was too strong, and Lord Stark moved too swiftly . . ."

"How many have you betrayed, I wonder? Aerys, Eddard Stark, me . . . King Robert as well? Lord Arryn, Prince Rhaegar? Where does it begin, Pycelle?" He knew where it ended.

So was Varys on Rhaegar's side while Pycelle was spying and intriguing for Tywin?  In the current story, Varys and Mopatis intrigue to put a Targaryen back on the throne.  I also suspect Mopatis of being a deep R'hllorist.  

[Tucu]

2 hours ago, Black Crow said:

"everything had gone awry from there" is particularly intriguing

This quote from Jamie also has some interesting bits:

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After dancing griffins lost the Battle of the Bells, Aerys exiled him." Why am I telling this absurd ugly child? "He had finally realized that Robert was no mere outlaw lord to be crushed at whim, but the greatest threat House Targaryen had faced since Daemon Blackfyre. The king reminded Lewyn Martell gracelessly that he held Elia and sent him to take command of the ten thousand Dornishmen coming up the kingsroad. Jon Darry and Barristan Selmy rode to Stoney Sept to rally what they could of griffins' men, and Prince Rhaegar returned from the south and persuaded his father to swallow his pride and summon my father. But no raven returned from Casterly Rock, and that made the king even more afraid. He saw traitors everywhere, and Varys was always there to point out any he might have missed

At the time of the Battle of the Bells Aerys considered Elia a hostage; we are told that Aegon was born in Dragonstone and that Elia and his children where there when Rhaegar "kidnapped" Lyanna. So who moved them to KL and why? And we have this other bit about Elia

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Elia found it all exciting. She was of that age, and her delicate health had never permitted her much travel

Meanwhile Tywin ignored Aerys pleads even as he was probably well informed of the situation by Pycelle. And Varys was still fostering division by pointing traitors everywhere