Ser Scot A Ellison Posted July 17, 2021 Share Posted July 17, 2021 On 7/15/2021 at 5:23 PM, C.T. Phipps said: I should note that while Tolkien is heavily influenced by Catholicism, it is not 100% accurate. here is no Hell in Tolkien's world, just the Halls of Mandos. Melkor is imprisoned in the Timeless Void that there's no indication is also the resting place of evil humans. They go beyond Arda to another place after judgement by Mandos. Denethor commits suicide as well in a fit of grief but he is unaware that his son is not dead and it would be wrong to assume he is attempting to commit murder. I think you are incorrect. Mandos doesn’t have anything to do with men after they die. The “Gift of Men” (denied the Elves) is to pass beyond the circles of the world after death. No one, even the Valar, know precisely what happens to men after they die. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Varys Posted July 17, 2021 Share Posted July 17, 2021 9 minutes ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said: I think you are incorrect. Mandos doesn’t have anything to do with men after they die. The “Gift of Men” (denied the Elves) is to pass beyond the circles of the world after death. Know one, even the Valar, know precisely what happens to men after they die. Men seem to go to Mandos to wait there for what's going to happen next. Whether Mandos knows where they are going or not is never actually revealed, although people seem to believe Mandos does not know. For Beren-Lúthien to work men must go to Mandos at least for a short while or else Lúthien would have never gotten Beren back. And that she got him back also indicates that the Valar - or rather Mandos and Manwe at least - actually do have the power if not the authority (unless granted them by Eru) to decide the fate of men, including making the call to resurrect them. How exactly this works - whether Mandos and Manwe just *know* or remember from the Music what they are allowed to do, or whether Manwe actually does talk to Ilúvatar in his heart and actually gets a reply we don't really know. We would have gotten a similar case for the ultimate fate of both Tuor who, according to tradition was a man counted among the elves, which also means the Valar had the authority to make him immortal like the elves, and Túrin Turambar. His ultimate fate apparently was to be counted among the Valar/Maiar so he could return for the Last Battle to finally smite Morgoth for good. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SeanF Posted July 17, 2021 Share Posted July 17, 2021 10 hours ago, Lord Varys said: The Halls of Mandos seem more like Purgatory, or for the worst offenders, the ancient Hades, rather than hell, to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
polishgenius Posted July 18, 2021 Share Posted July 18, 2021 I enjoy how a topic implying that LotR has little moral complexity has ignited a four-page-and-counting debate about the moral ins-and-outs of Middle Earth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C.T. Phipps Posted July 18, 2021 Share Posted July 18, 2021 All I know is Saruman was right. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luzifer's right hand Posted July 19, 2021 Share Posted July 19, 2021 9 hours ago, C.T. Phipps said: All I know is Saruman was right. That the halfling's leaf slows the mind? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheLastWolf Posted July 19, 2021 Share Posted July 19, 2021 10 hours ago, C.T. Phipps said: All I know is Saruman was right. 1 hour ago, Luzifer's right hand said: That the halfling's leaf slows the mind? No Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Varys Posted July 19, 2021 Share Posted July 19, 2021 17 hours ago, polishgenius said: I enjoy how a topic implying that LotR has little moral complexity has ignited a four-page-and-counting debate about the moral ins-and-outs of Middle Earth. We didn't really discuss the issue as such all that much - because it is quite clear. We were discussing the interpretation of certain characters. But even there nobody ever made a convincing case that Denethor abandoning his post, trying to kill his son, and killing himself were the right thing to do. Objectively we all know that he should have listened to Gandalf. That was the right thing to do, morally speaking. In the same sense, Sméagol shouldn't have murdered Déagol, Saruman shouldn't have betrayed the West, Boromir shouldn't have tried to steal and use the Ring, etc. It is all quite clear what's the right thing to do. There is no moral ambiguity in that book. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
polishgenius Posted July 19, 2021 Share Posted July 19, 2021 I suspect that's why I said 'discussing the moral ins-and-outs' not 'the moral complexity'. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Scot A Ellison Posted July 19, 2021 Share Posted July 19, 2021 16 hours ago, C.T. Phipps said: All I know is Saruman was right. No. Just no. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Varys Posted July 19, 2021 Share Posted July 19, 2021 20 minutes ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said: No. Just no. Saruman at least has heard about the scientific method. Gandalf still lives in the dark times. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Scot A Ellison Posted July 19, 2021 Share Posted July 19, 2021 33 minutes ago, Lord Varys said: Saruman at least has heard about the scientific method. Gandalf still lives in the dark times. Destroying the forests of Middle-Earth is not the way to win. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Varys Posted July 19, 2021 Share Posted July 19, 2021 9 hours ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said: Destroying the forests of Middle-Earth is not the way to win. I guess Aldarion and his successors didn't agree. But I didn't mean Saruman and the tree demons, rather Gandalf's weirdo proclamation about the whiteness of white light - which is hogwash. Saruman's take on that is much more reasonable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
butterweedstrover Posted July 19, 2021 Author Share Posted July 19, 2021 On 7/18/2021 at 5:27 PM, polishgenius said: I enjoy how a topic implying that LotR has little moral complexity has ignited a four-page-and-counting debate about the moral ins-and-outs of Middle Earth. Complexity does not equal ambiguity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
polishgenius Posted July 20, 2021 Share Posted July 20, 2021 9 hours ago, butterweedstrover said: Complexity does not equal ambiguity. This is true, I missstated having said that precisely in my original post. And would therefore go back to Lord Varys and correct my reply to him too, since this discussion clearly does show moral complexity, just not amgiguity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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