MLB 2021: The Shohei Must Go On*

[Jaxom 1974]

Glanville rightly hits on that concept.  The Hall is a museum. It would be irresponsible to omit the late 90s and the Steroid Era from the Hall.  Bonds, Clemens, the others...they'll all get their recognition within the walls of the Hall of Fame...they just won't get their plaques and enshrinement. 

[DMC]

28 minutes ago, Jaxom 1974 said:

Glanville rightly hits on that concept.  The Hall is a museum. It would be irresponsible to omit the late 90s and the Steroid Era from the Hall.  Bonds, Clemens, the others...they'll all get their recognition within the walls of the Hall of Fame...they just won't get their plaques and enshrinement. 

Yeah I don't think Glanville's position is all that different than mine, which has always been let them in but also sure, give them their own wing or asterisk or whatever.  I suppose now for effect that wing could be quarantined or something.

[DMC]

BTW this thread title is looking a little dated.  It's about two weeks from when pitchers and catchers are supposed to report and there's no real indication that the show, in fact, will be going on.

[Jaxom 1974]

49 minutes ago, Myshkin said:

I’m not a fan of Ortiz’ induction, or of the fact that he seems to get a pass from the media. I also don’t subscribe to the philosophy that because some cheaters have been let in, the doors should be thrown open for all cheaters. 

Ortiz was primarily a DH. They should have a little section in the Hall for the Designated Hitters as a group, but otherwise...nah. He wouldn't be among my choices for the Hall on those grounds. The PED stuff is just icing for not being in favor of his induction...

[Tywin et al.]

8 minutes ago, Jaxom 1974 said:

Ortiz was primarily a DH. They should have a little section in the Hall for the Designated Hitters as a group, but otherwise...nah. He wouldn't be among my choices for the Hall on those grounds. The PED stuff is just icing for not being in favor of his induction...

Come on, he's a clear HoFer, juice or no juice.

[Myshkin]

44 minutes ago, Jaxom 1974 said:

Ortiz was primarily a DH. They should have a little section in the Hall for the Designated Hitters as a group, but otherwise...nah. He wouldn't be among my choices for the Hall on those grounds. The PED stuff is just icing for not being in favor of his induction...

Plus there was that time he stared down the Cuban team in the WBC, as if they were responsible for Castro. I don’t like Ortiz, I don’t buy the whole lovable Big Papi persona, but it’s the cheating that should have kept him out of the hall.

[Jaxom 1974]

45 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

Come on, he's a clear HoFer, juice or no juice.

He's a DH. Only.played half the game.

[Tywin et al.]

Just now, Jaxom 1974 said:

He's a DH. Only.played half the game.

So all AL pitchers are no goes too?

[Myshkin]

31 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

So all AL pitchers are no goes too?

Yup, Fuck ‘em.

[Tywin et al.]

2 minutes ago, Myshkin said:

Yup, Fuck ‘em.

There's only one way to settle this then, a chainsaw massacre cage fight... to the horrific but only mostly death.

[Myshkin]

6 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

There's only one way to settle this then, a chainsaw massacre cage fight... to the horrific but only mostly death.

Wait, would it change anything if I said Dennis Eckersley could still be in? Because Dennis Eckersley can definitely still be in.

[Tywin et al.]

9 minutes ago, Myshkin said:

Wait, would it change anything if I said Dennis Eckersley could still be in? Because Dennis Eckersley can definitely still be in.

I'm afraid the die has been cast here.

First ballot mustache Hall of Fame though. That, I think, we can all agree on.

[Week]

Pull Mariano Rivera from the hall. He only played 1/18th of every few games. Fucking scrub.

[Jaxom 1974]

Pitchers are different.  That's obvious.  Would it be better if they hit properly? Yes. Specialization of the position, specific to the presence of the DH, is another problem.  Some of the criteria that would have you look at a pitcher and declare them HoF worthy will never be reached again. It's a true pity that we'll probably never see a 300 game winner again.  And no, wins are not the be all in measuring the worth of a pitcher, but a pitcher who's out there winning 300+ games is probably also doing some really special things on the mound.

But the criteria should be higher for position players.  

[Tywin et al.]

13 minutes ago, Jaxom 1974 said:

Pitchers are different.  That's obvious.  Would it be better if they hit properly? Yes. Specialization of the position, specific to the presence of the DH, is another problem.  Some of the criteria that would have you look at a pitcher and declare them HoF worthy will never be reached again. It's a true pity that we'll probably never see a 300 game winner again.  And no, wins are not the be all in measuring the worth of a pitcher, but a pitcher who's out there winning 300+ games is probably also doing some really special things on the mound.

But the criteria should be higher for position players.  

Modern pitchers. Back when real men played ball they only had two starters, they play the whole game, would play in the field at times and they’d walk ten miles uphill to get to the games while they smoked 50 cigs and chugged a ton of beer. Today’s pitchers are soft.

[Week]

42 minutes ago, Jaxom 1974 said:

It's a true pity that we'll probably never see a 300 game winner again.  And no, wins are not the be all in measuring the worth of a pitcher, but a pitcher who's out there winning 300+ games is probably also doing some really special things on the mound.

Why?

Out of 24 300 game winners-

- 11 (46%) ended their careers before 1930 (who cares what their names are other than Cy Young and Pud Glavin)

- 3 started between 1925 and 1942 (Grove (only played against White players), Earl Wynn, Spahn)

- 6 started in the 60s (Perry, Niekro, Carlton, Ryan, Sutton, Seaver)

- 4 started in the 80s (Clemens (cheater and garbage human), Maddux, Glavine, and Randy Johnson)

Ignoring half the list (played only against other White players, in the Dead Ball era, etc., prior to major K-zone and mound changes ('69)), you are left with less than 10 pitchers. 

[Jaxom 1974]

1 hour ago, Tywin et al. said:

Modern pitchers. Back when real men played ball they only had two starters, they play the whole game, would play in the field at times and they’d walk ten miles uphill to get to the games while they smoked 50 cigs and chugged a ton of beer. Today’s pitchers are soft.

True of far to many. 

[Week]

Today's pitchers pitch at peak performance more than any other era - more training, analytics, pitch design, surgical recovery, etc. Throwing a harder average velocity, more breaking pitches, and likely a ligament from their hip in their elbow because their UCL snapped.

What nonsense.

[Week]

16 hours ago, Tywin et al. said:

So all AL pitchers are no goes too?

Only pitchers averaging >50 PA per year should be eligible for the hall now. Sub .200 batting average? 5 RBIs? 0 extra base hits? IDGAF. All that matters is that fans had to put up with you embarrassing yourself, at least, 50 times per season. Now you're a real ball player.

[Jaxom 1974]

Soooo...you're solidly in the, "universal DH" camp...?