International Events VI: Glorious Anarchy and Chaos!

[lacuna]

5 minutes ago, Padraig said:

I already answered this.

<<unlike climate change, its going to be very binary about whether anyone is interested in hosting the event>>.

Context is important when trying to make comparisons.

I mostly in agreement with all your comments so far, but I can also absolutely envision a future where the IOC have pissed in the pool to the extent that nobody wants to play in it anymore, i.e. they can't find anyone willing to host it. Now, that would probably mean that someone in the IOC would step up and embrace the concept of "less is more" and start trimming the fat, and the Olympics would be resurrected, though it'd be the old 'if you replace the handle and then the head, is it the same hammer?' conundrum.

In fairness, I might be biased by my absolute distaste for the IOC after the reports coming out ahead of a possible bid for the 2022 Winter Olympics in 2014-ish. IIRC, there was stuff about IOC members demanding dedicated road lanes for getting to and from events, hotels of "international standard", with a whole floor just for IOC VIPs and a hotel bar exempt from local closing time laws, demands to be met off the plane by smiling people, demands to be hosted by the king and queen at the castle for coctails (sure, that's their job, but demands... Fuck off.)

(Also, it wasn't really a question )

[Maltaran]

47 minutes ago, lacuna said:

I mostly in agreement with all your comments so far, but I can also absolutely envision a future where the IOC have pissed in the pool to the extent that nobody wants to play in it anymore, i.e. they can't find anyone willing to host it. 

They pretty much had that already, when everyone except Paris and LA pulled out of the bidding for 2024 and they ended up deciding that whoever came second would be given 2028 because they were afraid that otherwise no one would bid.

[horangi]

On 7/29/2021 at 9:19 PM, A Horse Named Stranger said:

Yes, there is. The idea is to showcase all of the sports equally, regardless whetehr it's something mainstream likesay Basketball or track and field events, or really something niche like this synchornized/artistic swimming. It would lead to less marketable sports simply falling by the wayside. Hell, I think even the traditional wrestling tournament, which is one of the oldest competitons, was (or is?) in danger of getting axed from the Olympics. It's probably even more extreme with the winter olympics. The most marketable event there is undoubtedly the mens' hockey tournament, next down the line is then probably something like figure skating (not my thing, but it's apparently quite popular). I don't think anybody really cares for stuff like Curling. This coming together of all kinds of athletes sharing the same stage is really one of the few saving graces for the Olympics.

Fair points!  However, is having all sports in once city/region vs having them scattered actually prevent the less popular ones from dropping off the list?  I would think that allowing a city that has a passion such as @L'oiseau françaisToronto hosting Curling would likely bring more excitement around the sport (my favorite winter sport as well) than a mega city with no connection to it?  Heck with no limitations on infrastructure, you could expand the number of sports for more niche markets.  Those issues could be addressed with a set of rules for how sports are added and dropped and perhaps some sort of revenue sharing agreement.  As for coming together, for 99.99% of people on the planet, the games are something that comes together through a TV screen.  I suppose we'd lose some impact to the opening/closing ceremonies, but if the pandemic has taught us anything, its how to host events without having geographical constraints. Oh and the athletes lose the opportunity to cross-pollinate in the village and create super babies, but I think we can live with Curling x Curling inbreeding.   I could see it marketed as the month every four years when the whole world pauses to set aside our differences and compete in more friendly terms while many different cultures can be celebrated. 

The other point is that the discussion, at least on this board, has been a To Be or Not to Be debate, so wouldnt this provide a reasonable alternative to cancelling altogether?  It robs more authoritarian states of the larger propaganda coup of having the world watch them celebrate their greatness for a month and it removes the disparate financial burden on the host cities.   It gives less wealthy and smaller areas of the world a chance to participate and could actually expand the number of sports played.

[A Horse Named Stranger]

1 hour ago, horangi said:

Fair points!  However, is having all sports in once city/region vs having them scattered actually prevent the less popular ones from dropping off the list?  I would think that allowing a city that has a passion such as @L'oiseau françaisToronto hosting Curling would likely bring more excitement around the sport (my favorite winter sport as well) than a mega city with no connection to it?  Heck with no limitations on infrastructure, you could expand the number of sports for more niche markets.  Those issues could be addressed with a set of rules for how sports are added and dropped and perhaps some sort of revenue sharing agreement.  As for coming together, for 99.99% of people on the planet, the games are something that comes together through a TV screen.  I suppose we'd lose some impact to the opening/closing ceremonies, but if the pandemic has taught us anything, its how to host events without having geographical constraints. Oh and the athletes lose the opportunity to cross-pollinate in the village and create super babies, but I think we can live with Curling x Curling inbreeding.   I could see it marketed as the month every four years when the whole world pauses to set aside our differences and compete in more friendly terms while many different cultures can be celebrated. 

The other point is that the discussion, at least on this board, has been a To Be or Not to Be debate, so wouldnt this provide a reasonable alternative to cancelling altogether?  It robs more authoritarian states of the larger propaganda coup of having the world watch them celebrate their greatness for a month and it removes the disparate financial burden on the host cities.   It gives less wealthy and smaller areas of the world a chance to participate and could actually expand the number of sports played.

The stage would be much, much smaller. Bad analogy time. It's a bit like moving an event from MSNBC, CNN, Faux News, to CSPAN. Sure, the more interested fans in Canada will find it buried in between the coverage of the case of Mitch McConnell's stolen dentals. But in effect, it will get as much attention as a World Championship of Curling. That's one argument. The other one, is really taking out quite a bit of togetherness of the Olympics. There are only that many opportunities for the Jamaican bobsled team, to hang out with the super stars of Curling (I assure you I tried very hard not to grin writing that) or with the NHL superstars. Ideally you see parts of those teams visting other events and grow some appreciation for the work and ability of the other athletes (who are never going to earn milions with their sport). The media exposure for taking home a medal from those niche events can be quite helpful for those non-milionaire athletes. Maybe dropping some minor sponsorship deal at home. But for that they'd need the media exposure on the big stage. The bigger stage also helps draw kids into those niche sports, they otherwise might not know about. I mean how many kids would accidently tune into Curling on CSPAN.

[horangi]

26 minutes ago, A Horse Named Stranger said:

The stage would be much, much smaller. Bad analogy time. It's a bit like moving an event from MSNBC, CNN, Faux News, to CSPAN. Sure, the more interested fans in Canada will find it buried in between the coverage of the case of Mitch McConnell's stolen dentals. But in effect, it will get as much attention as a World Championship of Curling. That's one argument. The other one, is really taking out quite a bit of togetherness of the Olympics. There are only that many opportunities for the Jamaican bobsled team, to hang out with the super stars of Curling (I assure you I tried very hard not to grin writing that) or with the NHL superstars. Ideally you see parts of those teams visting other events and grow some appreciation for the work and ability of the other athletes (who are never going to earn milions with their sport). The media exposure for taking home a medal from those niche events can be quite helpful for those non-milionaire athletes. Maybe dropping some minor sponsorship deal at home. But for that they'd need the media exposure on the big stage. The bigger stage also helps draw kids into those niche sports, they otherwise might not know about. I mean how many kids would accidently tune into Curling on CSPAN.

OK fair enough. Its a difference in perspective I suppose.  The individual athletes would lose some value out of the change. I personally wouldnt value that very high. I dont see the Olympics primarily being held for the benefit of the individual participants rather than it being a global spectacle held more for the benefit of the audience's amusement, nation-state bragging rights, and $$$ of course.  As for level of exposure, do you mean with the audience and potential sponsors or with other athletes?  If the later, then yeah your right, but as above, I dont think that weighs much against a multi-billion dollar price tag.  If the former, I'm not sure I see how physical location matters.  I assume its the broadcast channel that gets to decide what to show, perhaps with the IOC getting to weigh in.  If the water polo tourney was magically teleported to Oslo instead of Tokyo, I doubt the audience would even notice other than the fact that the bonsai tree on Bob Costas' desk would be replaced with a can of Lutefisk or something.

[williamjm]

1 minute ago, horangi said:

If the former, I'm not sure I see how physical location matters.  I assume its the broadcast channel that gets to decide what to show, perhaps with the IOC getting to weigh in.  If the water polo tourney was magically teleported to Oslo instead of Tokyo, I doubt the audience would even notice other than the fact that the bonsai tree on Bob Costas' desk would be replaced with a can of Lutefisk or something.

I don't get the impression ratings for Euro 2020 were hurt by it being hosted by eleven countries rather than the traditional one or two hosts.

[A Horse Named Stranger]

4 hours ago, horangi said:

OK fair enough. Its a difference in perspective I suppose.  The individual athletes would lose some value out of the change. I personally wouldnt value that very high. I dont see the Olympics primarily being held for the benefit of the individual participants rather than it being a global spectacle held more for the benefit of the audience's amusement, nation-state bragging rights, and $$$ of course.  As for level of exposure, do you mean with the audience and potential sponsors or with other athletes?  If the later, then yeah your right, but as above, I dont think that weighs much against a multi-billion dollar price tag.  If the former, I'm not sure I see how physical location matters.  I assume its the broadcast channel that gets to decide what to show, perhaps with the IOC getting to weigh in.  If the water polo tourney was magically teleported to Oslo instead of Tokyo, I doubt the audience would even notice other than the fact that the bonsai tree on Bob Costas' desk would be replaced with a can of Lutefisk or something.

The individual atheltes would lose out.

The national sporting federations and local clubs would also lose out, as the olympics are kinda their way to lure kiddies in. The Olympic flair is sorta the candy, if you will. And one of the rare occasion (or sole occasion), where they can compete with King Football in terms of attention. At least around here. That's particularly true for niche sports. E.g. the summer olympics are pretty much the only time you see those bow shooting events around here. That stuff is quite big in Asia (esp. South Korea). If we follow your proposal, that competition would be held there. Somehow I don't think national news outlets would send their reporters there just for those bow events. Thus no interviews, thus no face attached to that sport, thus lower recruitment drive/appeal.

5 hours ago, williamjm said:

I don't get the impression ratings for Euro 2020 were hurt by it being hosted by eleven countries rather than the traditional one or two hosts.

Again, King football is hardly a niche sport that would just fall by the wayside. King Football rules supreme in Europe. It'S one singular sporting event. The Olympics are different Sports bundled together into that big event. Splintering that would hardly hurt the big sports. If you want a more UKish example. Think about someone like Jade Jones. Somehow I don't think Taekwando gets that much attention outside the Olympics in the UK (esp. not the ladies). If you just shipped that one off to Korea every four years, it would get as much coverage as the Taekwondo World Championship.

[TheLastWolf]

Happy Friendship day forum buddies! 

[A Horse Named Stranger]

Meanwhile the Polish Goverment has voiced concerns over the standard of the rule of law and freedom of speech in Germany.

Background: A Polish Prof. for Theology, Dariusz Oko, has been fined 4.800 € over a Homophobe Hate Speech by a German court. In an op-ed in a newspaper/journal called Theologisches he called homosexual priests parasites and a cancer. I don't know that paper, but going by its name, it's obviously some faith publication. Either way, a priest has decided to press charges against Oko. And the court inflicted that on him. Oko has filed an appeal, so it looks like he will have his day in court. I hope the court upholds the fine, and he ends up having to pay legal fees on top of that fine.

[Padraig]

13 hours ago, lacuna said:

I mostly in agreement with all your comments so far, but I can also absolutely envision a future where the IOC have pissed in the pool to the extent that nobody wants to play in it anymore, i.e. they can't find anyone willing to host it. Now, that would probably mean that someone in the IOC would step up and embrace the concept of "less is more" and start trimming the fat, and the Olympics would be resurrected, though it'd be the old 'if you replace the handle and then the head, is it the same hammer?' conundrum.

Fair.  Like when we replaced the Olympic Council of Ireland with the Olympic Federation of Ireland in 2018 because the former was seen as corrupt.

It is very difficult to reform huge international organisations.  FIFA, the UN, IMF etc.  Is there a major international organisation that has a huge amount of respect?   Ignoring charities and medical agencies.  But even the WHO gets criticism.

I don't actually see that reputation issue as a solvable problem (given the huge variety of countries involved), although we must constantly work at improving the situation.  But yes, if the IOC really did lose the run of itself, a complete reformation may be the way to go.  We will always want an event like the Olympics (assuming other factors are not preventing it).  (I see reforming rules around how an event is held far easier to manage)

And actually, maybe spreading the Olympics around the world would be seen as one solution.  But I really would see that as an act of complete desperation.  The Euro's were only spread around Europe because no host emerged given the financial crisis at the time.  I would largely agree with A Horse Named Stranger that the Olympics would lose something major (to me part of the huge charm of the games is to get athletes, supporters, the host city all in the same place, interacting having fun and getting to know each other etc).  I don't particularly care about the TV viewer, even if TV generates a lot of money.

13 hours ago, lacuna said:

(Also, it wasn't really a question )

Hah!

13 hours ago, A Horse Named Stranger said:

Doping is distorting the competiton and violating its integrity? What about genetics?

It's ofc bare nonsense and a way to try to justify doping.

Indeed. 

[Loge]

An Belarus opposition activist has been found hanged in a park in Kyiv after being reported missing yesterday:

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-58065313

[Zorral]

And that vile pos, tucker carlson, is broadcasting this week from Orbán's Hungary, whose honored guest carlson is of that vile pos whose publicly stated goal is to replace in Europe tolerant, inclusively-goaled democracy with either "illiberal democracy," or a single 'Christian' state. Carlson will also

Quote

speaks on Saturday at MCC Feszt, an event hosted by a government-sponsored university whose mission is to produce a conservative elite.

Further -- Cuba and the internet.  Still no mention that the US ordered the island not be part of the global fiber optic cable network project of the 1980's and 90's, which is why it was so long before Cuban had any internet at all -- and it got some via no help or approval of the USA.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/aug/03/why-the-internet-in-cuba-has-become-a-us-political-hot-potato

Quote

 

 . . .And while past attempts to boost connectivity have failed, US policymakers today enjoy more success in the online battle for hearts and minds.

After connecting through the popular VPN Psiphon, Cubans are directed to a webpage linking to anti-regime propaganda financed by US taxpayer dollars.

A recent Twitter hashtag campaign, drawing attention to the island’s unprecedented Covid outbreak, was also bolstered by fake accounts.

Analysis by disinformation expert Julián Macías Tovar found that thousands of Twitter accounts with the #SOSCuba hashtag were created in the days leading up to the protests. Many accounts used an automated system to retweet the hashtag five times a second.

Along with regular tweeting, the campaign spurred protest turnout by contributing to the feeling the government was losing control in the pandemic.

Tovar found that the #SOSCuba campaign had been driven by accounts linked to Atlas Network, a free-market consortium of more than 500 organisations that have received funding from ExxonMobil and the Koch brothers. Twitter accounts of Atlas Network members have been involved in bot or troll centre campaigns in recent elections in Peru and Ecuador, as well as the 2019 civic-military coup in Bolivia. . . . .

 

As far as knowing what's going on inside Cuba, we seem far more likely to know than many or even most, as we've spent so much time there, on the ground, not within Cuban or US government projects, and even when barred from the island, we speak with Cubans from all over the island every day, directly, Cubans in a variety of conditions and positions, including farmers who raise veg, cacao, coconut and tobacco, not to mention, of course, the ubiquitous, essential chickens and pigs.

 

 

[Ran]

4 hours ago, Zorral said:

Further -- Cuba and the internet.  Still no mention that the US ordered the island not be part of the global fiber optic cable network project of the 1980's and 90's

What is the relevance of this to Biden's statement? Cuba now has fiber-optic cable connecting it to the Internet. The blocking of communications that took place has nothing to do with lack of capacity, and has everything to do with the Cuban government deliberately blocking access to certain apps during the protests. That's what the President is referring to.

But if we want to talk about history, Cuba had as much a hand in its failure to be part of the network as the U.S. Thanks to US law changes to encourage communication links with Cuba, WilTel in the US was prepared to lay the first fiber-optic cable in 1995 or 1996, but the Cuban government's insistence on collecting 100% of the collect call fees scuttled the deal.

Quote

, which is why it was so long before Cuban had any internet at all -- and it got some via no help or approval of the USA.

The first connection Cuba ever had to the internet was via Sprint in the US in 1996. US companies made other efforts to provide fiber-optic cables after WilTel, but Cuban policies as well as American policies prevented those going forward.

4 hours ago, Zorral said:

As far as knowing what's going on inside Cuba, we seem far more likely to know than many or even most....

And yet with all this access, you were misinformed about the role of the Cuban military in remittance processing.  Were I in that position, I would wonder why it is that my sources led me to believe something that was not true, something that happened to fit a pro-government and anti-American narrative. Could it be that they judged that to be the narrative I would prefer to hear? Or is it merely that they are pro-government, anti-American and that was the narrative they preferred to tell? Or perhaps they, too, are misinformed by their own government about its dealings in their name and are recounting the government narrative without realizing its untruth?

[Luzifer's right hand]

The heat waves and the wildfires in Greece are Turkey are pretty extreme this year. 

Quote

ATHENS — Greece was grappling with one of its hottest weeks on record on Tuesday as an intense heat wave swept through much of Southern Europe and fueled major forest fires.

The National Observatory of Athens weather service on Monday registered the highest temperature ever officially recorded in the country — 46.3 degrees Celsius, or 115.3 degrees Fahrenheit — in the central Greek region of Phthiotis.

Temperatures were forecast to climb to 113 degrees Fahrenheit in Athens on Tuesday and top 115 degrees in parts of central Greece, according to the country’s National Meteorological Service.

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/08/03/world/europe/greece-turkey-heat-fires.html

[Winterfell is Burning]

You know, with climate change increase, I wonder if the Olympics will have to do a Qatar and be hosted near the end of the year in the future, when they are not held in the Southern Hemisphere.

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

49 minutes ago, Winterfell is Burning said:

You know, with climate change increase, I wonder if the Olympics will have to do a Qatar and be hosted near the end of the year in the future, when they are not held in the Southern Hemisphere.

Or maybe a country that uses slaves should just never get to host any international event again...

[Spockydog]

LOL

[DMC]

5 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

Or maybe a country that uses slaves should just never get to host any international event again...

.....What's the statute of limitations on this?

[Winterfell is Burning]

Oh, I wasn't saying Olympic games should be held in Qatar, just that climate change means it's temperatures in summer will become more common worldwide- Tokyo is already clearly being very hard for athletes.

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

21 minutes ago, DMC said:

.....What's the statute of limitations on this?

That which can win the gold medal in flexibility.