They're Racist and We Know It - A UK Politics Thread

[BigFatCoward]

22 minutes ago, Which Tyler said:

It's absolutely brilliant news, and I'm delighted to have been wrong.

I was absolutely wrong about how much caution people would still take after being told they don't need to.

Let's not get too carried away, 134 deaths today is bad. 

Anyone seeing racism where a high ranking police officer commits an act that ridiculous and offensive needs to have have word with themselves.

Also, apart from anything else, who is going to want to work with or for her now? How would she ever discipline anyone for anything? Her position is untenable. 

If one of Boris old Bullingdon club chummies had sent him the same clip and he didn't report it would we be so forgiving? Of course not, you would be screaming for his head. She had to go, and overuling it is insane. 

[lessthanluke]

2 hours ago, Luzifer's right hand said:

Great news indeed.

A lot of people isolated though and most people I know in the UK(left leaning borders obviously) stayed really careful and I suspect a lot of people in the UK did that.

Define careful? Life seems to have been back to close to normal for months where I live (pubs and restaurants packed) etc 

[Luzifer's right hand]

18 minutes ago, lessthanluke said:

Define careful? Life seems to have been back to close to normal for months where I live (pubs and restaurants packed) etc 

Well the people I interact with regularly are not really a lot of that afaik. I dunno how significant that group is though. 

[lessthanluke]

1 minute ago, Luzifer's right hand said:

Well the people I interact with regularly are not really a lot of that afaik. I dunno how significant that group is though. 

Yeah I was more referring to your last sentence. Obviously everything is anecdotal but I see the group being really careful as the minority tbh.

[Luzifer's right hand]

4 minutes ago, lessthanluke said:

Yeah I was more referring to your last sentence. Obviously everything is anecdotal but I see the group being really careful as the minority tbh.

Yeah as I said I dunno. Great news although nobody in charge expected a summer spike at all at least around here. But summer in the UK is different obviously.

Workplaces seem incredible strict in the UK compared to what is happening here too. But again anecdotal evidence. 

[Heartofice]

30 minutes ago, lessthanluke said:

Yeah I was more referring to your last sentence. Obviously everything is anecdotal but I see the group being really careful as the minority tbh.

Like I said before I really think it depends where you live. Personally I’ve noticed almost no difference since the 19th. Maybe an occasional person here and there not wearing masks but a definite minority. But i can see how other areas of the country might be different.

Either way it’s notable that those who pumped out hysteria about the 19th are quite silent. Even Starmer was at it.

[mormont]

I didn't see anyone pump out hysteria about the 19th. Starmer was soberly cautious, at worst. You're assaulting a straw man there.

[Luzifer's right hand]

7 minutes ago, mormont said:

I didn't see anyone pump out hysteria about the 19th. Starmer was soberly cautious, at worst. You're assaulting a straw man there.

Being cautions and avoiding risk is panic and fear in the eyes of some people I feel. 

[Heartofice]

Well we could start with this article in the Guardian about how Britain "opening up" on the 19th was a "Threat to the world!!!"

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/jul/16/englands-covid-unlocking-a-threat-to-the-world-experts-say

This was in reference to the lancet letter that was mentioned on this board the other week. The one signed by 1200 'international experts' that warned about a mass infection (in other words herd immunity strategy). Many news outlets used this as the subtext for their articles on opening up, with cries that Boris is opening up 'despite scientists warnings!!'
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2021/jul/04/pm-confirm-19-july-end-covid-restrictions-scientists-warnings-england

The lancet letter described opening up as 'dangerous and premature' it also said: 

Quote

"The UK Government must reconsider its current strategy and take urgent steps to protect the public, including children. We believe the government is embarking on a dangerous and unethical experiment, and we call on it to pause plans to abandon mitigations on July 19, 2021.'

(worth noting just who these 1200 'international experts' are and who else was behind that letter. Namely the letter was written in conjuction with Carole Cadwaller , who wrote about it in her substack named Murderous, Reckless, Diabolical
https://keepingthereceipts.substack.com/p/murderous-reckless-diabolical
 

Quote

 It’s a day on which the powers of unreason and untruth will triumph. A triumph that will kill people you know. It will leave tens of thousands with a debilitating, long-term condition that we aren’t even at the beginning of learning to understand.

If you want to know why that is a “reckless and unethical experiment”, read the letter to the Lancet signed by 122 scientists and supported by over 1,200 more.

We’ve been working with its lead author Dr Deepti Gurdasani on these and multiple other fronts over the last two months.

This message was parroted across the media at the time, and I'm not even counting the individual commentators, twitters or people on here who mirrored this sentiment. 

Then you have Neil Ferguson saying cases could hit 200,000 a day, and this story being plastered all over the news as yet more proof of this dangerous and unethical experiment.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/jul/18/uk-covid-cases-could-hit-200000-a-day-says-neil-ferguson-scientist-behind-lockdown-strategy-england

 

Quote

"Covid cases could hit 200,000 a day in the UK this year and cause “major disruption” to the NHS, according to the scientist whose initial modelling helped shape Britain’s coronavirus lockdown strategy.

Prof Neil Ferguson said it was “almost inevitable” that Monday’s final phase of unlocking would bring on 100,000 daily cases, with about 1,000 hospitalisations – despite roughly half the UK being fully vaccinated. He added that he could foresee a situation in which the case rate expands to twice the size."

Anyone with even a cursory knowledge of Fergusons history of predictions would of course ignored every single word that comes out of his mouth, but he was given prime real estate to put forwards his fearful predictions. 

So from is '100k cases are inevitable' prediction we can also come to Starmer, who chose to take Ferguson at his word, citing this figure in his speech in which he called opening up reckless and risk a 'summer of chaos' 

He also seemed to not notice that we hadn’t actually opened up all at once but that this was very much a staged opening, which is really another reason why this is all so illogical 
 

So no... not really a strawman at all.

[mormont]

I'm not sure you really grasp the difference between someone making a prediction that is proven wrong (for reasons we do not yet have the data to fully understand) and 'hysteria'. But that has, unfortunately, been a consistent problem in this pandemic and in a lot of other contexts too: right-wing folks labeling those who disagree with them as basically unstable and emotional. 

I'm glad, as every sensible person is, that the 200,000 cases a day prediction didn't pan out. But it's a significant leap to go from there to 'hysteria'. For the latter, you'd need to show that the prediction was actually irrational, not that it subsequently didn't come true - post hoc judgements aren't enough, 

[Derfel Cadarn]

Let’s give it 3-4 weeka after the schools are back before we break out the bunting...

[Heartofice]

I'm not sure you grasp how those predictions are being used especially in regards to headlines and public control. 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-58078900

The above article from today even goes so far as to admit that the 100k figure was thrown around to scare people into acting cautiously.

Quote

But there was a reason why the figures were put forward so publicly. It was, in part, to influence behaviour.

"We messed up the communication about masks," said one government source. "We had ministers claiming they were ditching them - it was giving the wrong impression when we needed the public to remain cautious.

"We knew we had to rein things back again."

Throughout this pandemic we've seen a number of models created which range in severity, and they are touted as 'predictions', but they aren't, because predicting something is very close to saying that something will happen. Really what is being said is 'there is a scenario where this might happen' and because that is the number which will create the biggest behavioural change that is one that everyone goes with. Ferguson has consistently over estimated the numbers in his work across multiple pandemics, because the incentive is to be wrong in only one direction, he basically has admitted as such.

The point is that these 'predictions' are used to create a level of control, they aren't totally neutral or factual, but are being presented as such. The Lancet letter was being pushed as 'scientists', as if they represent all scientists, and yet it was certainly coming at the whole thing with an agenda, an agenda that wasn't highlighted.

You also have to look at the language being used by everyone here. I highlighted the times 'dangerous' or murderous or unethical were used. These words are purposefully used to stir up fear and anger. You can of course ignore it if you want, thats up to you, but don't pretend it didn't happen.

 

[SeanF]

I do think that Independent Sage and their followers had an agenda, branding every relaxation of lockdown as reckless, while promising the terrors of earth, as a result

In all likelihood, the BBC is correct, that the government were deliberately bigging up potential case numbers, to ensure people remained cautious, and less creditably, to be in a position to overdeliver against promises. 

[Spockydog]

2 hours ago, Derfel Cadarn said:

Let’s give it 3-4 weeka after the schools are back before we break out the bunting...

Indeed. It's two weeks since we dropped all restrictions. And the biggest fear amongst scientists has been the UK creating a perfect breeding ground for some kind of super variant. That hasn't changed. At all.

 

[DaveSumm]

1 minute ago, Spockydog said:

Indeed. The biggest fear amongst scientists has been the UK creating a perfect breeding ground for some kind of super variant. That hasn't changed. At all.

I don’t see how that’s avoidable. If we accept Covid isn’t eradicable, then the only way we get to normal is building up antibodies through vaccines and infections. That will always be the case, whatever the strategy; you put anything in the way of Covid and that thing becomes an evolutionary hurdle for the virus, and therefore the most likely variants to spread are ones which successfully leap those hurdles.

[Which Tyler]

2 hours ago, mormont said:

I'm not sure you really grasp the difference between someone making a prediction that is proven wrong (for reasons we do not yet have the data to fully understand) and 'hysteria'. But that has, unfortunately, been a consistent problem in this pandemic and in a lot of other contexts too: right-wing folks labeling those who disagree with them as basically unstable and emotional. 

I'm glad, as every sensible person is, that the 200,000 cases a day prediction didn't pan out. But it's a significant leap to go from there to 'hysteria'. For the latter, you'd need to show that the prediction was actually irrational, not that it subsequently didn't come true - post hoc judgements aren't enough, 

100% agree here.
I can't quite believe I've just seen "This was in reference to the lancet letter that was mentioned on this board the other week. The one signed by 1200 'international experts' that warned about a mass infection (in other words herd immunity strategy). Many news outlets used this as the subtext for their articles on opening up, with cries that Boris is opening up 'despite scientists warnings!!'"  being outright wrong, despite it being 100% accurate. Boris absolutely, 100% DID open up against expert warning. That the public have been more sensible than there was any reason to believe they would be, and that numbers haven't escalated as much as feared, for reasons we can't explain - doesn't mean that he opened up in accordance with expert advice.

[Spockydog]

1 hour ago, SeanF said:

I do think that Independent Sage and their followers had an agenda, branding every relaxation of lockdown as reckless, while promising the terrors of earth, as a result

Agenda.

You hear this word a lot amongst the covidiots. And when challenged to explain what they mean by that, they generally come out with a load of hilarious, Facebook-style dunderbollocks.

So, Sean, what, perhaps, might the SAGE agenda be here? Genuinely curious. Do they want to kill us all? Perhaps they want to turn our children into web-footed, water-breathing hermaphrodites? Or maybe they're just coming out with a whole bunch of lies for nothing but shits and giggles?

What is their secret agenda? Please, enlighten us.

 

[Spockydog]

8 minutes ago, DaveSumm said:

I don’t see how that’s avoidable. If we accept Covid isn’t eradicable, then the only way we get to normal is building up antibodies through vaccines and infections. That will always be the case, whatever the strategy; you put anything in the way of Covid and that thing becomes an evolutionary hurdle for the virus, and therefore the most likely variants to spread are ones which successfully leap those hurdles.

That is certainly one take.

I guess you must have some sort of professional qualifications and experience in the field of virology, to speak with such authority.

 

[Heartofice]

3 minutes ago, Which Tyler said:

 Boris absolutely, 100% DID open up against expert warning. That the public have been more sensible than there was any reason to believe they would be, and that numbers haven't escalated as much as feared, for reasons we can't explain - doesn't mean that he opened up in accordance with expert advice.

Which experts are you referring to here? You are referring to a group of 120 scientists (with international experts signing a letter) 

The way it is being portrayed is that there was absolute consensus about what would happen when we "opened up" (we had already opened up which seems to have completely escaped peoples heads), and these those in the letter represented 'all scientists', when obviously that isn't true. 

[Spockydog]

I repeat, it is two weeks since all restrictions were dropped.