Covid #35: I am the Alpha and the Omega.

[DireWolfSpirit]

Yeeeeehawwww we fightin that Rona an Tennysee n Arknsawww leadn the way for us, no guvmint gonna keep us down!!

 

[Pink Fat Rast]

4 hours ago, IheartIheartTesla said:

Unfortunately, since this vaccine outreach is for minors, kids will be dying or losing quality of life from the 'Darwinism' of their parents.

I cant read the article, but if its adolescents then hopefully the <10 age cohort is still being vaccinated as normal. 

As far as I know, that age group is at minimal risk.

[Pink Fat Rast]

7 hours ago, Tywin et al. said:

Just watched a wild scene playing out in Arkansas. The state has one of the lowest vaccination rates in the country, and the right wing governor was being heckled while begging people to get vaccinated. The comments came from people who clearly shouldn't have even graduated from HS.

We've talked carrot vs. stick before. I say take it a step further. Treat the unvaccinated like lepers. Unvaccinated? You can't shop in person. Unvaccinated? You can't go to work, nor can you receive unemployment. Unvaccinated? Your children cannot go to school. Unvaccinated? $1,000 a month tax per person in your household. Make it so uncomfortable that the only option is to get vaccinated, because we're at the point where the unvaccinated are every bit as dangerous as the virus itself.

Don't masks work though?

(Also under current and foreseeable circumstances, such measures would just cause a huge revolt - many of tve unvaxers are pissed because of the lockdowns etc., they'll get even pissed'er if they start being actively prevented from buying food, taxed, receive income in any form etc.)

[IheartIheartTesla]

23 minutes ago, Pink Fat Rast said:

As far as I know, that age group is at minimal risk.

We are talking about vaccines for polio, measles and the like which are typically given before 6 years of age.

[Padraig]

There does seem to have been a change in the narrative around immunity derived from infection versus immunity derived from vaccination.  Originally, the latter was said to be much stronger baseed on the antibody response but there have been stories more recently that point in the other direction (the response seems to grow after infection?).  See here.  

It is good that people are less likely to be reinfected but getting vaccinated is obviously a much more safer route to getting immunity, so this isn't great news.   If it's true.  I may be misunderstanding it.

In other news, the UK is now going to vaccinate 16-17 year olds.  Always likely.  Most countries will want that extra protection.  It will be curious to see will younger ages be vaccinated also.   Other countries are moving in that direction.

And the EU has finally signed an agreement to buy 100m (+100m options) doses from Novavax.  That discussion took a while.  Not that Novavax have actually filed for approval yet.  It is supposed to be in this quarter of the year but I thought it might happen before the end of July.

[Pink Fat Rast]

9 minutes ago, Padraig said:

There does seem to have been a change in the narrative around immunity derived from infection versus immunity derived from vaccination.  Originally, the latter was said to be much stronger baseed on the antibody response but there have been stories more recently that point in the other direction (the response seems to grow after infection?).  See here.  

It is good that people are less likely to be reinfected but getting vaccinated is obviously a much more safer route to getting immunity, so this isn't great news.   If it's true.  I may be misunderstanding it.

In other news, the UK is now going to vaccinate 16-17 year olds.  Always likely.  Most countries will want that extra protection.

Wait I don't quite get, does that mean they were refusing to vaccinate 16-17s who asked to be vaccinated?

[Padraig]

7 minutes ago, Pink Fat Rast said:

Wait I don't quite get, does that mean they were refusing to vaccinate 16-17s who asked to be vaccinated?

I wouldn't phrase it like that.  16-17 year olds weren't approved to be vaccinated until now.  Other countries have only started vaccinating under 18s in recent months. 

No countries have approved vaccination for those that are younger than 12 (trials are ongoing though).

[Pink Fat Rast]

1 minute ago, Padraig said:

I wouldn't phrase it like that.  16-17 year olds weren't approved to be vaccinated until now.  Other countries have only started vaccinating under 18s in recent months. 

No countries have approved vaccination for those that are younger than 12 (trials are ongoing though).

Ah, yes ok makes sense; I forgot that they may have left out that age group in earlier trials, so I was like whaaaaat lol; had my brain turned off

[Clueless Northman]

I'm surprised it took that long to UK before agreeing to vaccinate 16-17. I think it's been the case across most of Europe since at least a month, possibly more - and I seem to remember some countries allowing vaccines to 12+. Well, good for UK at long last, specially considering the already reasonably high vaccine uptake in adults, it's going to hit a quite high % of vaxxed global population, compared to many continental countries and to US.

[williamjm]

1 hour ago, Clueless Northman said:

I'm surprised it took that long to UK before agreeing to vaccinate 16-17. I think it's been the case across most of Europe since at least a month, possibly more - and I seem to remember some countries allowing vaccines to 12+. Well, good for UK at long last, specially considering the already reasonably high vaccine uptake in adults, it's going to hit a quite high % of vaxxed global population, compared to many continental countries and to US.

Previously the UK was allowing vaccinations for 12+ but only for children in vulnerable groups.

[The Anti-Targ]

International agencies finally recognising COVID-19 is not transmissible in food. Something that has been obvious from how the disease has been spreading for a while.

COVID-19 not a food safety hazard – FAO - Meat Importers Council of America (micausa.org)

Quote

COVID-19 not a food safety hazard – FAO

Food Safety News, By Joe Whitworth on August 4, 2021

The virus that causes COVID-19 is not a direct food safety concern, according to updated guidance from the Food and Agriculture Organization of the United Nations (FAO).

The guidance document replaces interim guidance from the FAO and World Health Organization (WHO) on coronavirus and food safety for food businesses, originally published in April 2020.

Earlier guidelines were criticized by the then-International Association for Food Protection (IAFP) president Roger Cook and others for suggesting SARS-CoV-2 was a food safety issue.

No confirmation of link to food or packaging
Current data indicates that neither food nor food packaging is a pathway for the spread of viruses such as SARS-CoV-2. Coronaviruses cannot multiply in food or on surfaces but can in humans and certain animals. Once in the environment, viruses degrade and become less infectious, according to the document.

“It is important to note that, although the detection of virus or viral ribonucleic acid (RNA) remnants on foods and food packaging provides evidence of previous contamination and is not disputed, there is no confirmation of SARS-CoV-2, or any other respiratory illness-causing virus, being transmitted by food or food packaging and causing illnesses in people who touch the contaminated food products or packaging.”

Dr. Roger Cook is a friend and colleague who works at my agency. Very competent and internationally respected microbiologist, and keen yachtsman.

Also, Tyson Foods requiring all employees to be vaccinated Tyson Foods to require all employees get vaccinated - Meat Importers Council of America (micausa.org)

Quote

Tyson Foods Inc. announced on Aug. 3 that it is requiring its leadership officers to be fully vaccinated by Sept. 24, its workers in office locations around the country by Oct. 1 and the rest of its employees to be fully vaccinated by Nov. 1. Tyson is the largest US food company to require its employees to be vaccinated for COVID-19. The company’s locations represented by unions are still discussing the vaccination process and requirements.

“Getting vaccinated against COVID-19 is the single most effective thing we can do to protect our team members, their families and their communities,” said Claudia Coplein, MD, chief medical officer for Tyson Foods. “With rapidly rising COVID-19 case counts of contagious, dangerous variants leading to increasing rates of severe illness and hospitalization among the US unvaccinated population, this is the right time to take the next step to ensure a fully vaccinated workforce.”

I would hope that unions are not going to be an obstacle to this company mandate, I expect almost all unions to be very pro-vaccination but some could be run by some anti-vax nutjobs. But I also hope that Tyson is not demanding that employees have to get vaccinated on their own dime. Is vaccination free in the USA? If not I would hope that Tyson foots the bill for this mandate, and I hope unions are able to push Tyson in that direction.

[rotting sea cow]

7 hours ago, The Anti-Targ said:

International agencies finally recognising COVID-19 is not transmissible in food. Something that has been obvious from how the disease has been spreading for a while.

I don't that anybody has suggested it is a significant avenue of infection. But if there is even a minimal possibility of the virus retaining viability due to the conditions of packaging is something to take into account, in countries like NZ that have chosen complete elimination. For the rest of the world wastelands, it's completely negligible.

This might interest you: Wild deer have coronavirus antibodies

https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2021/08/wild-deer-have-coronavirus-antibodies

These reverse zoonotic events are dangerous. Not only they provide reservoirs to the virus, but it might provide ways to mutate further.

BTW: It really seems that NZ is the "last man standing". I have serious doubts that Australia and China will be able to contain their Delta outbreaks.

[DireWolfSpirit]

Notifications are going out tomorrow at our workplace that we will be resuming mandatory masking (whether vaccinated or not) for all indoor spaces beginning Monday.

[The Anti-Targ]

38 minutes ago, rotting sea cow said:

I don't that anybody has suggested it is a significant avenue of infection. But if there is even a minimal possibility of the virus retaining viability due to the conditions of packaging is something to take into account, in countries like NZ that have chosen complete elimination. For the rest of the world wastelands, it's completely negligible.

This might interest you: Wild deer have coronavirus antibodies

https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2021/08/wild-deer-have-coronavirus-antibodies

These reverse zoonotic events are dangerous. Not only they provide reservoirs to the virus, but it might provide ways to mutate further.

BTW: It really seems that NZ is the "last man standing". I have serious doubts that Australia and China will be able to contain their Delta outbreaks.

We have no COVID measures at all for imported packaged food and we have not had any outbreak positively attributed to food products, notwithstanding the one outbreak in a worker at a cold store the origin of who's infection remains unknown. So the risk is negligible even in a completely naive population.

We are in the almost uniquely fortunate position of having only one level of government with total control over the public health system and laws AND the government is very much lead by scientific and medical advice when it comes to these sorts of things. They are not immune to ideological decision-making in other areas but at least on public health they follow the science. Also of note is that the major opposition parties are not loony nutjobs, so while they are trying to find ways to snipe at the government over handling COVID they are not going all looney anti-vax / anti-mask etc etc. If anything they are criticising the govt for not going far enough, like not forcing vaccination more. It wasn't like that at the start with some opposition MPs being all "protect the economy rather than the health of the public", but they soon saw the way the wind was blowing and either got on board with what is being done, or they just shut up with their inhumane ideas knowing that it isn't going to win them any votes. Also helps that the economy is performing much better than predicted, we're seeing economic growth despite basically zero foreign tourism and unemployment and underemployment is the lowest it's been since before the GFC. Curious that Economists were predicting double digit unemployment and the economy tanking about a year ago. It does help that we've had a lot of "immigration" with 10's of thousands of expats coming home, bringing their wealth, skills and demand for goods and services with them.

I had read the headline about the deer before, but not the detail.

[Padraig]

19 hours ago, Clueless Northman said:

I'm surprised it took that long to UK before agreeing to vaccinate 16-17. I think it's been the case across most of Europe since at least a month, possibly more - and I seem to remember some countries allowing vaccines to 12+. 

I think the politicians want to vaccinate the under 18s but the medical community isn't as convinced.  Not that it is a hard no but they are looking for more data.  This is a good summary.  Most countries are moving in the direction towards expanding vaccination though. 

Germany is the biggest exception now, despite political pressure.

[Ormond]

On 8/2/2021 at 3:31 PM, Kaligator said:

Motherfuckers over here watched - they FUCKING WATCHED - India get absolutely wrecked by this and what, they thought that it wasn't any big thing? That people that were young were in hospital and the rivers choked with bodies and that was just lol India?

Fuck them all and their myopic, insular asses. 

Look, the idea that most pople in the USA "watched" that in India just isn't true. I am certainly on the side of requiring everyone (who is not in the tiny % with a medical condition that does make it a hazard) to have a COVID vaccination, and I know India had a really bad go of it a while back. But I simply do not watch enough TV news to have seen "river choked with bodies" or anything else in terms of visuals about what was going on there. And I'm sure anti-vaxxers aren't going to have had much opportunity to see any such thing if all they're watching are the right-wing cable news channels.

[karaddin]

I'm not confident that we'll get the outbreak in NSW back down to full elimination, but the curve has been flattened considerably and I'm hoping we can at least hold at this level until vaccination rates start hitting the level that will let us get it back under control and keep people safe. I keep seeing people talking about "at this rate there will be thousands of cases a day in 2 weeks" sort of shit and the growth isn't even close to that. The daily average has gone up about 50-70/day over the last week which obviously isn't good, but is still short of runaway growth.

I'm much more hopeful that Vic and Qld will get theirs back under control though, the real problem in NSW was it getting into the essential worker labour force and spreading mostly at work and to their households, Vic and Qld haven't had that happen yet.

Our domestic politics is going absolutely bat shit though and the number of people buying into awful interstate division/blame/hate is really concerning for long term social cohesion.

[maarsen]

To get this out of the US Politics thread, I am posting this here. I really have to wonder about the hesitation/ refusal to vaccinate those under 18 in most parts of the world for Covid. Here in Canada the age for vaccination is 12 and above. Children are routinely vaccinated for numerous diseases well before they become adults such as measles, mumps, rubella, diptheria, whooping cough, tetanus, and polio. Here in Canada, it starts at 3 months of age. Children may not get a severe case of CCovid but they sure can spread it. My daughter was 13 months old and scheduled for surgery but she came down with a rash days before. We took her to a GP who said it looked like insect bites and we were ok to proceed.  She went onto the OR and came out minutes later followed by a furious nurse telling us to leave immediately as she had chicken pox, which threatened the health of the other patients on  the ward, as it was also a burns unit. Looking at the delta variant, I suspect it spreads like chicken pox or the measles, and being small is no reason to assume one cannot spread it. Vaccination is not a newfangled technology, but over 300 years old. Start vaccinating.

[Derfel Cadarn]

People need to accept there is a measure of risk with vaccines, but unless there are exceptional circumstances, they are the best option.

My wife as a baby took a horrendous reaction to typhoid vsccine. We still had our daughter vaccinated against it.

My dad is allergic to penicillin; I’ve had it umpteen times with no ill-effect

[Heartofice]

14 minutes ago, maarsen said:

To get this out of the US Politics thread, I am posting this here. I really have to wonder about the hesitation/ refusal to vaccinate those under 18 in most parts of the world for Covid. Here in Canada the age for vaccination is 12 and above. Children are routinely vaccinated for numerous diseases well before they become adults such as measles, mumps, rubella, diptheria, whooping cough, tetanus, and polio. Here in Canada, it starts at 3 months of age. Children may not get a severe case of CCovid but they sure can spread it. My daughter was 13 months old and scheduled for surgery but she came down with a rash days before. We took her to a GP who said it looked like insect bites and we were ok to proceed.  She went onto the OR and came out minutes later followed by a furious nurse telling us to leave immediately as she had chicken pox, which threatened the health of the other patients on  the ward, as it was also a burns unit. Looking at the delta variant, I suspect it spreads like chicken pox or the measles, and being small is no reason to assume one cannot spread it. Vaccination is not a newfangled technology, but over 300 years old. Start vaccinating.

While I think worries about vaccinating children are on the whole unfounded and when you look at the available evidence it seems unlikely that there should be any negative issues associated with vaccination, I think it is a perfectly understandable position.

While vaccinations aren’t a new thing, these vaccines are new, many use very new mRNA technology, they were brought out very fast, far faster than anyone expected and approval was rushed through. It’s hardly surprising that some would be nervous about the long term effects because we haven’t had the vaccines around for 10 or so years to make sure that there aren’t side effects we never anticipated. Anyone with children is always going to have that at the back of their minds.

Having said that, there is very good reason to believe that there should be no long term problems. As far as I’m aware no vaccines in the past have revealed issues or side effects past the 6 month mark and it shouldn’t be different here.

Almost all of the major concerns cited around vaccines lack any scientific basis, from the supposed lack of testing to the damage caused by rogue spike proteins. 
 

I do think the messaging around vaccines has been quite poor in part, some of these concerns are easy to clear up but are left to idiots on social media to fill info gaps. 
 

But if you told most people that they want to inject your kid with some brand new drug that was rushed out and uses brand new technology for which there is no long term data, you can’t begrudge people for being nervous about it. 
 

Messaging and information needs to be better to counter what I consider I pretty natural reaction