What's the point of Bonifer Hasty?

[Mister Smikes]

6 minutes ago, Canon Claude said:

I’m confused. You use genetics and biology to justify Aerys not being Rhaegar’s father, and then you later claim that GRRM’s world isn’t meant to be realistic when it comes to the same subjects in order for boys and girls to procreate as 12 and 13 year olds.

You are definitely confused.  I never said the GRRM-verse was unrealistic on this point.  I merely said it was a world where such things are possible.  If you knew anything about the real world, you would know that such things are also possible in the real world.  

13-to-15 year old girls getting pregnant is definitely possible in the real world.  This is even possible at younger ages, but there is no need to consider younger ages for purposes of discussing the conception of Rhaegar.  When Rhaella conceived with Rhaegar, she may have been as old as 15, and was definitely no younger than 13.

 

[Canon Claude]

9 minutes ago, Mister Smikes said:

You are definitely confused.  I never said the GRRM-verse was unrealistic on this point.  I merely said it was a world where such things are possible.  If you knew anything about the real world, you would know that such things are also possible in the real world.  

 

No need to get so defensive and patronizing. I never insulted your intelligence, I was asking for clarification of your arguments. 

[Mister Smikes]

5 minutes ago, Canon Claude said:

No need to get so defensive and patronizing. I never insulted your intelligence, I was asking for clarification of your arguments. 

I'm sorry if I upset you.  And maybe I could have been nicer.  But I think I have now clarified the issue you raised.

[Lord Varys]

2 hours ago, Mister Smikes said:

A landed knight is a knight who owns land.  There is no contradiction because no canon source says that Bonifer's house is a "noble" house, or that Bonifer is a "lord", which might be more to the point.

You are ennobled when you get a Ser. No knight is a commoner. He is a knight.

And that's especially true for landed knight because that means you are part of the landowning noble community. There are landed knights who are as powerful - or more powerful - than many smaller lords (like the Templetons or Fossoways) and then there are lesser landed knights. But they are all part of the nobility. The nobility aren't just lords and their children.

But, of course, landed knights do not have the rights and privileges that lords have.

1 hour ago, Mister Smikes said:

The theory is not based on nothing, though.  Rhaegar is far too healthy and talented, and far too different from his father both physically and mentally, to be the product of 2 consecutive generations of full sibling incest.  Any healthy child without birth defects would likely be a near clone of his dad, which Rhaegar was not.  GRRM provided what I take to be an ironic clue, when he had Aerys suspect Rhaella of infidelity whenever his children were born sickly or deformed.

That makes little sense in light of the fact that many Targaryens who are the product of full sibling incest have remarkably different qualities, for instance, Viserys I and Daemon, the various children of Jaehaerys and Alysanne and the two sons of Aegon the Conqueror.

Aerys II and Rhaella also do not resemble each other nor their parents.

1 hour ago, Mister Smikes said:

There are also curious parallels to Aemon the Dragon Knight and Aerys, where it is hinted that Daeron was the son of Aemon, and that the conception may have occurred before the forced marriage (allowing Naerys to still be innocent of adultery).

Those seem to be false rumors in the story, hardly the basis for other fan-made theories involving a tourney knight and a royal princess.

1 hour ago, Mister Smikes said:

Aerys may have been 16 when Rhaegar was born.  Rhaella may only have been a year younger.  The birth, for all we know, may have occurred 41-42 weeks after the marriage, or less, and/or 42-43 weeks after the conception, or more.  GRRM has boys sire children at 12, and has Dany get pregnant at 13.   In any event, we are not debating whether the conception of Rhaegar was possible, we are merely debating whether the father was Aerys.

Aerys is born either in 243 or 244 AC, which makes him sixteen only in 260 AC. The basis for that is the fact that Aerys II was eighteen when he took his father's throne in 262 AC.

We don't know that Rhaella was just a year younger than Aerys, she could have been two or even three years younger. We don't know.

The point with that idea simply is that Bonifer Hasty is deliberately described as a man who is very unlikely to dishonor a royal princess by deflowering her without being her betrothed or husband. He wanted to marry her, not dishonor her. Also, as a tourney knight he is definitely not a household knight of House Targaryen, meaning his contact with Princess Rhaella would have been very limited. They would have met at tourneys, greatly limiting the chance that they could be intimate, especially around the time

His character is more that of a guy who wanted Rhaella and couldn't get her. If he had gotten her he could have continued as her secret lover/paramour behind Aerys' back. But he didn't do that. This was more a courtly love thing that went nowhere.

[The Commentator]

On 7/19/2021 at 2:12 PM, James Steller said:

I know, I know, small bit of GRRM's worldbuilding, yadda yadda, but still, I'm curious about this. Mostly because Bonifer Hasty seems like a walking contradiction. He's apparently the head of House Hasty, which is listed as a noble house that's been around since at least the time period of Dunk & Egg, but he's only called "Ser" and is described as a landed knight. He's utterly devoted to the Seven, even creating a special order of a hundred pious knights, but they through their lot in with Stannis Baratheon, who's (A) an atheist, and (B) supported by a priestess of Rhlorr, who's converting as many of Stannis' followers as she can. And now, instead of racing off to join the newly formed Faith Militant, he's accepted the position of castellan at Harrenhal, which is owned by Lord Petyr Baelish, a man who famously made his fortune by catering to the vice and sin which Bonifer despises. 

What the hell is his deal? What does he want? What is he going to do?

Inconsistency.  Inconsistency in the writing.  He was acting out of character.

[Tucu]

2 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

The point with that idea simply is that Bonifer Hasty is deliberately described as a man who is very unlikely to dishonor a royal princess by deflowering her without being her betrothed or husband. He wanted to marry her, not dishonor her. Also, as a tourney knight he is definitely not a household knight of House Targaryen, meaning his contact with Princess Rhaella would have been very limited. They would have met at tourneys, greatly limiting the chance that they could be intimate, especially around the time

His character is more that of a guy who wanted Rhaella and couldn't get her. If he had gotten her he could have continued as her secret lover/paramour behind Aerys' back. But he didn't do that. This was more a courtly love thing that went nowhere.

Bonifer's tale contain parallels to other soiled knights that are celibate aside from sleeping with a princess or a queen. This is nowhere near a confirmation, but good enough for a suspicion.

According to Jamie, Bonifer was in service of Owen Merryweather, courtier and later Hand of the King. This might increase Bonifer's connection to KL.

[Hrulj]

Knowing how Martin functions he’s gonna start a hasty bone fire that will set off wildfire under kings landing. 

[Mister Smikes]

4 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

That makes little sense in light of the fact that many Targaryens who are the product of full sibling incest have remarkably different qualities, for instance, Viserys I and Daemon, the various children of Jaehaerys and Alysanne and the two sons of Aegon the Conqueror.  Aerys II and Rhaella also do not resemble each other nor their parents.

None of these were the products of 2 consecutive generations of full sibling incest except Viserys I and Daemon.  Aerys and Rhaella of course do resemble each other to some extent.  This tendency would tend to increase with their own trueborn children.

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Those seem to be false rumors in the story, hardly the basis for other fan-made theories involving a tourney knight and a royal princess.

It is arbitrary to say they "appear to be false."  

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Aerys is born either in 243 or 244 AC, which makes him sixteen only in 260 AC. The basis for that is the fact that Aerys II was eighteen when he took his father's throne in 262 AC.

Must we argue about basic math?  Aerys was born either in 243 or 244.  If he was born 244, he would have turned 15 some time in 259.  If he was born in 243, he would have turned 16 some time in 259.  If his birthday and his coronation occurred relatively early in the year, and if Summerhall occurred relatively late in the year, Aerys could easily have been 16 at the time of Summerhall.

For instance, the following hypothetical timeline is consistent what the canon sources tell us:

15 Feb 243:  Birth of Aerys II

15 Mar 244:  Birth of Rhaella

16 Mar 259:  Rhaella gets pregnant 1 day after her 15th birthday

19 Mar 259:  Rhaella is forced to marry Aerys.  She has been  pregnant a week but does not know it.

15 Dec 259:  Summerhall and the Birth of Rhaegar.

15 Jan 262:  Aerys II ascends the throne, a month before his 19th birthday (making him still 18).

Other scenarios are of course possible.  This is merely one extreme of a range of possibilities.  But you were the one arguing that it does not make sense to have Rhaella be too young. 

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We don't know that Rhaella was just a year younger than Aerys, she could have been two or even three years younger. We don't know.

If we don't know, then she could be 15 as well, as I have shown.  But knock yourself out.  Make her 11 if you like.  Does not change the fact that Rhaegar was  born, and (presumably) conceived as well.  The only question is, who was the father?

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The point with that idea simply is that Bonifer Hasty is deliberately described as a man who is very unlikely to dishonor a royal princess by deflowering her without being her betrothed or husband.

He is never described that way, deliberately or otherwise.

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He wanted to marry her, not dishonor her.

Presumably he did want that, though it is never specifically stated.  What is specifically stated is that was never any hope of him marrying her.  Nonetheless it is established that they did love each other.  I don't see how you can be an absolutist about their never consummating their love affair.  Are you really so sure that 2 teenagers who passionately love each other will be able to behave themselves?

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Also, as a tourney knight he is definitely not a household knight of House Targaryen, meaning his contact with Princess Rhaella would have been very limited.

I guess now you are going to speculate that they did not have time to fall in love either.  You are getting dangerously close to arguing with what the text tells us.

Anyhow, a grandson of Duncan the Tall might have had more access to the Court than an ordinary landed knight might have had.

 

[Moiraine Sedai]

Rhaella was a beauty. Many men fall in love with women like that. Bonifer was just one of her admirers.  It's not enough to cause us to doubt the father of her children.  

[Mister Smikes]

32 minutes ago, Moiraine Sedai said:

Rhaella was a beauty. Many men fall in love with women like that. Bonifer was just one of her admirers.  

It is very heavily hinted, by Barristan's words to Dany, that she loved him back.

Barristan exact wording is that she was "smitten" with him.

[Mister Smikes]

3 hours ago, Tucu said:

Bonifer's tale contain parallels to other soiled knights that are celibate aside from sleeping with a princess or a queen. This is nowhere near a confirmation, but good enough for a suspicion.

Yes, thank you.  It's a theory, which is the sort of thing we talk about here, and the sort of thing the OP seemed to be asking for.

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According to Jamie, Bonifer was in service of Owen Merryweather, courtier and later Hand of the King. This might increase Bonifer's connection to KL.

A good thought.  Thanks.

[Mister Smikes]

6 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

You are ennobled when you get a Ser. No knight is a commoner. He is a knight.

And that's especially true for landed knight because that means you are part of the landowning noble community. There are landed knights who are as powerful - or more powerful - than many smaller lords (like the Templetons or Fossoways) and then there are lesser landed knights. But they are all part of the nobility. The nobility aren't just lords and their children.

But, of course, landed knights do not have the rights and privileges that lords have.

Any knight can make a knight, so it seems to cheapen the term "noble" to say every knight is a noble.  However, I'm sure that the word "noble" can mean different things in different contexts.  But the context of the discussion was that Ser Bonifer was not noble in the sense of being a lord.  You concede he is not a lord.   So we might as well end it here rather than get mired in semantic debate.

[Mister Smikes]

On 7/24/2021 at 6:15 AM, Lord Varys said:

Those seem to be false rumors in the story, hardly the basis for other fan-made theories involving a tourney knight and a royal princess.

Some further thoughts about whether the Naerys/Aemon rumors "appear to be false", with some further exploration of their parallels to the Rhaella/Bonifer situation.

- Egg addresses Bloodraven as "cousin".  If Egg's great grandpa is the Dragonknight, then Bloodraven is Egg's first cousin twice removed.   If Egg's great grandpa is Aegon the Unworthy, then Bloodraven is Egg's great uncle.  Egg's father, Maekar, named one of his sons "Aemon" before he got around to naming one of his sons "Aegon".

- Naerys was forced by her father the king to marry her brother Aegon, who later became king.  This parallels Rhaella being forced by her father Jahaerys II to marry Aerys, who later became king. 

- Naerys was rumored to love a tournament knight (paralleling Rhaellas rumored love for Bonifer).  This rumored lover afterwards swore celibacy.

- Naerys took comfort in her son Daeron because he was able to make her laugh.  In this respect, Daeron takes after Aemon the Dragonknight, but not after Aegon the Unworthy.  Aegon IV, after he became king, was known to voice the suspicion that Daeron was not his own.

- Naerys gave birth to Daeron the same year as her marriage.  Without knowing more about the timeline, we cannot rule out the possibility that Daeron was conceived before the marriage.  Furthermore, it was a difficult birth, suggesting the possibility that Daeron was overdue (hence it would not necessarily be obvious that Daeron was conceived before the marriage).

- Like Rhaenys, Naerys then suffered a string of reproductive failures (problems no doubt associated with incest).  Aegon IV, despite his difficulty siring children with his lawful wife, had no difficulty siring children with other women.  (This is not confirmed to be true of Aerys, but this is because his fondness for messing around with married ladies makes such situations ambiguous).

- Like Rhaenys, Naerys was accused or suspected of infidelity and treason.  Note that, if Daeron (or Rhaegar) was conceived before the marriage, Naerys (or Rhaella) would have been innocent.  The accusation of treason is the only aspect of the rumors that, IMHO, "appears to be false".  The singers are no doubt right that Naerys and Aemon loved each other.

[Seams]

14 hours ago, Mister Smikes said:

Some further thoughts about whether the Naerys/Aemon rumors "appear to be false"

I agree that it is relevant to consider the parallel between the Aemon the Dragonknight / Naerys and the Ser Bonifer Hasty / Rhaenys situations. As I've written elsewhere in this forum, the strongest hint for me is that GRRM goes out of his way to give The Dragonknight a second nickname that he uses for only one tournament: 

Knight of Tears = Father to Kings.

Based on this and other hints and rumors, I strongly suspect that Aemon is the father of Daeron.

The thing about the rumors, folk tales and legends that GRRM drops into the books, though, is that he is drawing on the oral tradition. Things that were not written down could change depending on who is telling the story. We see this when Ygritte and Jon Snow compare the different ending of the Gendel and Gorne story or the different constellations they were taught. Sometimes the different versions of tales are written down, which is why GRRM gives us multiple Maesters writing (or cited in) the histories for the events recounted in The World of Ice and Fire or in Fire and Blood. 

I believe GRRM wants things to be ambiguous; he wants several things to all be true at once. In the real world, one sperm almost always is the sole fertilizer of one egg, resulting in one biological father and one biological mother per child. (There are some interesting exceptions to this rule, such as twins absorbed in the womb or chimeras. GRRM enjoys those exceptions, too. There are strong hints that Tyrion could be a chimera.) 

Some aspects of character arcs and back stories fell into place for me when I listened to an audiobook of the Great Courses History of Celtic Civilization. The author explained that the great Irish hero Cú Chulainn had three fathers. There was more detail in the audiobook, but this online source provides the general outline:

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Deichtine, daughter of Conchobar mac Nessa, King of Ulster, joined her father on a hunting expedition chasing magical birds. After being waylaid by a sudden snowstorm, they took shelter inside a grand mansion where Deichtine helped to deliver a baby. In the morning, she and her father’s men awoke at Brú na Bóinne—far from where they had taken refuge the night before. Lacking a nearby caretaker, the baby soon died. Its father, revealed to be the god Lugh, soon appeared to Deichtine and told her she was pregnant with this same child.

Following a scandal regarding her pending nuptials, Deichtine aborted the child to marry her betrothed, Sualtam mac Róich. She soon gave birth to a child, whom she called Sétanta at Lugh’s request. Thus, the child was thrice-conceived and twice-born—the second time with Deichtine as the mother. 

Source: https://mythopedia.com/celtic-mythology/gods/cu-chulainn/

There are a lot of other interesting details in the Cú Chulainn story, some of which parallel one ASOIAF character and some seeming to echo another. 

So maybe the point isn't to argue whether Ser Bonifer Hasty or King Aerys was really Rhaegar's father. Maybe the real question is to ask why GRRM gives those two fathers to Rhaegar. And whether there are other fathers or foster fathers who contribute to making Rhaegar who he is. 

[Mister Smikes]

1 hour ago, Seams said:

So maybe the point isn't to argue whether Ser Bonifer Hasty or King Aerys was really Rhaegar's father. Maybe the real question is to ask why GRRM gives those two fathers to Rhaegar. And whether there are other fathers or foster fathers who contribute to making Rhaegar who he is. 

Well, i can suggest answers to those questions.

It is significant that Aerys be Rhaegar's father (in one sense), because that makes Rhaegar (or one of his children), the rightful king in the established line of succession.  He was born into the marriage with (quite possibly) no adultery, making him "legitimate" by the standards of the Faith of the Seven and the customs of the realm.  He has the blessings of the gods.

It is significant that Aerys is NOT Rhaegar's father (in another sense), because no-one wants to take after the Mad King, just as no-one wants to take after Aegon the Unworthy.

It is maybe significant that Aerys is NOT Rhaegar's father (in this second sense), because that may mean that Rhaegar does not unite the lines of Aerys and Rhaella, and cannot fulfill the woods witch prophesy.  Curiously, Rhaegar does eventually conclude that he cannot be TPTWP.

So what does Rhaegar do?  Well, he goes and seeks out as his bride Elia of Dorne, a choice not approved by his father.  Why Elia?  Well, Ellia was born "prematurely" in Dorne some months after her mother left Kings Landing suddenly in order to rush home to her husband.  It is hard to avoid the suspicion that Elia was conceived in King's Landing, and that Elia's birth was maybe not quite so "premature" as supposed.

Hence, Rhaegar may believe that his union with Elia unites the lines of Aerys and Rhaella, which means that his son can be TPTWP, and his children the 3 heads of the dragon.

[Lord Varys]

The only thing we need to know in the case of 'Daeron Falseborn' are those things:

1. Aegon IV acknowledged Prince Daeron as his own child after his birth.

2. Aegon IV named his son Daeron Prince of Dragonstone and Heir Apparent to the Iron Throne after he became king.

3. Aegon IV never directly accused his sister-wife or his brother of adultery nor did he ever punish them for such crimes. Likewise, he also never disinherited his heir.

4. We do know that the rumors about 'Daeron Falseborn' were spread only very late during Aegon's reign when the king was on very bad terms with his heir as well as his siblings, and it was meant as a deliberate attempt hurt their reputation. If the Unworthy had thought his sister-wife was cuckolding him he would have found ways to destroy her and his brother easily enough. He wouldn't have let this go after his brother won a trial-by-combat. Aegon IV did have more than a temper when he felt betrayed by people he was close to, as the Toyne incident shows.

5. Queen Naerys apparently had no interest in sex - she wanted to end her marriage after she had done her duty and delivered her brother-husband a male heir. Whatever feelings she may have had for Aemon are not likely to have included sex, since her wish was that she and Aegon live 'as brother and sister' after the end of their marriage ... which rather obviously implies that Naerys' concept of brotherly/sisterly love didn't include sibling incest. The idea that this woman wanted to sleep with both her brothers at the same time after being married to one of them is pretty ludicrous.

In addition, one can also consider that nobody accused Aemon and Naerys of adultery throughout the reigns of the kings Aegon III, Daeron I, Baelor the Blessed, and Viserys II. For instance, any accusation uttered during the reign of King Baelor would have likely resulted in very severe punishment (one can see the Dragonknight suffering the fate of Lucamore the Lusty).

[Mister Smikes]

@Lord Varys:

Aegon IV was not satisfied with the male heir Naerys gave him, and wanted a second male heir.  He was determined that Naerys would give him this second male heir, or at least die trying so he could take a second wife.   Aegon IV died before either of these things could happen.  Had he been given a second male heir, he might have disinherited the first.  As it was, he legitimized his bastards on his deathbed, suggesting he may have been moving in this direction anyway.

You say Aegon had cynical reasons for suspecting Daeron was not his own, but neglect to mention that it is also suggested that Aegon had various cynical reasons for not disinheriting him - namely that his throne would not be secure if he took such a step.  Seems to me that these alleged cynical motives cancel each other out, so that, on balance, this was an honest suspicion on his part.  

Most people have a natural interest in sex.  Nothing you say implies Naerys is an exception.  A religious temperament in no way implies immunity to healthy desire, nor even sin and temptation.  Baelor the Blessed, after all, seems to have lusted after his sisters, which seems to be a Targaryen weakness.  Also, while I believe Naerys' religious sensibilities were real, she also had special reason for her to ask permission to become a septa -- namely that she did not want to be forced to marry Aegon (or anyone else she did not love).   Her lack of interest in sex with Aegon IV may have had something to do with him being Aegon IV.   If this were not enough, a maester told after Daeron's birth that another childbirth might kill her.  Now her motive, besides not liking Aegon IV, was that she did not want to die.  "Live together as brother and sister" is merely an English expression (in this context a Westerosi expression) that functions as a more reserved and polite way of saying "live together without fucking".  Her use of such a euphemistic expression is evidently consistent with her character, but not particularly apt in context of Targaryen sibling incest traditions, an irony pointed out by Aegon IV.  Aegon IV and Naerys are, after all, married siblings, which makes this expression inapt for reasons that have nothing to do with whether or not she also had sex with her brother Aemon before the marriage.

But I don't think GRRM wants us to know for sure, one way or the other, whether Aemon is Daeron's real father.  However, he does directly and deliberately suggest the POSSIBILITY that Aemon is Daeron's father.  He then proceeds to draw numerous parallels between the Naerys situation and the Rhaella situation.   These parallels might be a sly clue, even if some of the parallels are only to the Naerys of song, or the Naerys of rumor, and not the Naerys of history.

GRRM is very sly about providing clues about Bonifer and Rhaella.  For instance, when Barristan discusses their mutual love in DANCE, Bonifer's name is not even mentioned.  Rather, the reader is forced to piece this together with a clue from a Jaime chapter in FEAST.   Most readers would never put these clues together in the Wiki of Ice and Fire did not help them.  This is a bit too deliberately sly and subtle for me to assume it means nothing and is going nowhere.

I don't expect us ever to find out for sure, once way or another, whether Aemon was the real father of Daeron.  It is more likely that we may get an answer to the question of whether Aerys was the father of Rhaegar.  And that question is likely tied up with the mystery of the events at Summerhall.  If Rhaegar was supposed to unite the lines of Aerys and Rhaella, but did not, then this might have put a fly in the magical ointment of whatever Aegon V was attempting that day.

[Lord Varys]

5 minutes ago, Mister Smikes said:

@Lord Varys:

Aegon IV was not satisfied with the male heir Naerys gave him, and wanted a second male heir.  He was determined that Naerys would give him this second male heir, or at least die trying so he could take a second wife.   Aegon IV died before either of these things could happen.  Had he been given a second male heir, he might have disinherited the first.  As it was, he legitimized his bastards, and gave away Dark Sister to one of them, suggesting he may have been moving in this direction anyway.

That doesn't really address my point and is riddled with weird speculation about Aegon's motivation. We have no reason to believe Aegon gave a damn about a first or second or third male heir (he was just a prince from a cadet branch and had neither lands nor titles for an heir to inherit). For all we know he may have just wanted to fuck Naerys because he enjoyed torturing her.

The point was that if Aegon had had reason to suspect that Daeron was not his child then Naerys and Aemon would have paid for that with their lives long before Aegon became king. Either by Aegon forcing his royal uncle, cousins, or father to punish them or by arranging their demise by himself. The man is suspected to have done away with his father, Viserys II, after all, so one should also expect he could have found a way ruin and destroy his siblings.

But more importantly, if King Aegon IV had thought his son Daeron was actually his brother's son - a man he never get along with, anyway - then Daeron would have never been made his heir.

Even more importantly, if there had been any truth to the rumors the king spread late in his life then there would have been enough ammunition to destroy Daeron for good, especially after Aemon and Naerys were dead. If the king had witnesses and proof proving his accusations, he could have disinherited Daeron, married his daughter Daenerys (assuming she was Aegon's) to Daemon Blackfyre, and name him his new heir.

If there had been credible witnesses and actual substance to the Daeron Falseborn ideas then the Dornish and Daeron's other friends wouldn't have had much ground for complaints. Aegon IV wouldn't have had any political problems.

Instead, he just muddied the water as best he could, setting up things so that his sons might destroy each other in the future. The entire thing is a big 'FUCK YOU!' to the people who outlived Aegon.

5 minutes ago, Mister Smikes said:

Most people have a natural interest in sex.  Nothing you say implies Naerys is an exception.  A religious temperament in no way implies immunity to healthy desire, nor even sin and temptation.  Baelor the Blessed, after all, seems to have lusted after his sisters, which seems to be a Targaryen weakness.  Also, while I believe Naerys' religious sensibilities were real, she also had special reason for her to ask permission to become a septa -- namely that she did not want to be forced to marry Aegon (or anyone else she did not love).   Her lack of interest in sex with Aegon IV may have had something to do with him being Aegon IV.   If this were not enough, a maester told after Daeron's birth that another childbirth might kill her.  Now her motive, besides not liking Aegon IV, was that she did not want to die.  "Live together as brother and sister" is merely an English expression (in this context a Westerosi expression) that functions as a more reserved and polite way of saying "live together without fucking".  Her use of such a euphemistic expression is evidently consistent with her character, but not particularly apt in context of Targaryen traditions, an irony pointed out by Aegon IV.  Aegon IV and Naerys, after all, married siblings, which makes this expression inapt for reasons that have nothing to do with whether or not she also had sex with her brother Aemon.

There is no indication that Naerys ever wanted to marry Aemon. For all we know she never wanted to marry anyone.

Also, you have to keep in mind that Aemon, too, seems to have had little inclination to have sex considering he joined the Kingsguard. It is not just that Naerys wasn't interest in sex or marriage, it is that she also indicated she wasn't approving of sibling incest - which isn't surprising in light of the fact that she was very pious -, and that Aemon also took steps never to marry.

If we assume that Aemon joined the KG to be close to Naerys so he could fuck her occasionally then we face another predicament. The Grand Maester told Naerys another pregnancy could kill her - and eventually such a pregnancy did kill her. Are we to assume that Aemon's alleged desire for his sister - and her desire for him - was stronger than the love they also felt for each other and their concern for Naerys' safety?

The impression we get is that Aegon is supposed to be an utter shithead for insisting that Naerys continue to have sex with him after Daeron's birth. We are not getting the impression that Aemon would have done the same if he and Naerys were in love.

Granted, it would still be possible that Aemon and Naerys fucked once or twice before Daeron's death ... but, again, since Naerys and Aemon were only accused of adultery over two decades later, with Morgil Hastwyck (and whoever else) slandering the queen and the Dragonknight, we cannot really expect those accusations going to back to some night in 153 AC when Daeron II may or may not have been conceived.

5 minutes ago, Mister Smikes said:

But I don't think GRRM wants us to know for sure, one way or the other, whether Aemon is Daeron's real father.  However, he does directly and deliberately suggest the POSSIBILITY that Aemon is Daeron's father.  He then proceeds to draw numerous parallels between the Naerys situation and the Rhaella situation.   These parallels might be a sly clue, even if some of the parallels are only to the Naerys of song, or the Naerys of rumor, and not the Naerys of history.

There aren't really any parallels between the Naerys and the Rhaella situation. Rhaella supposedly had a crush with a tourney knight before her marriage, and nobody in-universe ever so much as entertained the notion that Rhaegar might not be Aerys' son.

Aerys later accuses his sister-wife of adultery because he couldn't bear the thought that all the children who had died in the cradle had been his children. Aegon slandered the reputation of his siblings and son because he had issues with them.

It is of course technically possible that Aemon is Daeron's father - a lot is possible. But it is not very likely. Nor is the spin of the story so far indicating that we are supposed to believe the Daeron Falseborn story.

That said - this could change when we get a detailed history of the lives of the children of Viserys II.

5 minutes ago, Mister Smikes said:

GRRM is very sly about providing clues about Bonifer and Rhaella.  For instance, when Barristan discusses their mutual love in DANCE, Bonifer's name is not even mentioned.  Rather, the reader is forced to piece this together with a clue from a Jaime chapter in FEAST.   Most readers would never put these clues together in the Wiki of Ice and Fire did not help them.  This is a bit too deliberately sly and subtle for me to assume it means nothing and is going nowhere.

Oh, it will go somewhere. We are going to see that when Bonifer Hasty and the Holy Hundred lead Harrenhal (and other Riverlords in the vicinity) to join Aegon at Storm's End. When they also push the High Septon to declare Aegon the rightful king. The idea of that plot seems to be that the casual reader is not supposed to immediately figure out that Cersei herself made a Targaryen loyalist castellan of Harrenhal.

5 minutes ago, Mister Smikes said:

I don't expect us ever to find out for sure, once way or another, whether Aemon was the real father of Daeron.  It is more likely that we may get an answer to the question of whether Aerys was the father of Rhaegar.  And that question is likely tied up with the mystery of the events at Summerhall.  If Rhaegar was supposed to unite the lines of Aerys and Rhaella, but did not, then this might have put a fly in the magical ointment of whatever Aegon V was attempting that day.

Since the books never even cast doubt on the parentage of Rhaegar we will never get an answer to that 'question'. And Aegon V clearly didn't care much about the bloodline of Aerys and Rhaella. His son, Jaehaerys II, wanted Aerys and Rhaella to marry because of some prophecy Aegon V may not have even believed in - he wanted to hatch dragon eggs himself, he didn't expect some future promised prince to do that - and Aegon V allowed the marriage to happen, but he didn't push for it.

[Mister Smikes]

14 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

That doesn't really address my point and is riddled with weird speculation about Aegon's motivation. We have no reason to believe Aegon gave a damn about a first or second or third male heir (he was just a prince from a cadet branch and had neither lands nor titles for an heir to inherit). For all we know he may have just wanted to fuck Naerys because he enjoyed torturing her.

Well, we don't know his exact motivation.  There may have been a mix of motives, and he was certainly a cruel man.  But even a peasant tend to want a male heir, and a family consisting of children that are actually their own.  That is perfectly normal and not "weird speculation".  Doing things for for the sheer hell of being evil, however, is not normal, and GRRM is pretty much on record that he does not like to write that kind of villain because he does not consider them realistic.  And Aegon's interest in Daeron's parentage did seem to increase after he became king, which makes sense, since the kingship was something he could not simply dispose of by will without causing problems.

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The point was that if Aegon had had reason to suspect that Daeron was not his child then Naerys and Aemon would have paid for that with their lives long before Aegon became king.  Either by Aegon forcing his royal uncle, cousins, or father to punish them or by arranging their demise by himself.

There is no death penalty for pre-marital fornication.  Neither Baelor I nor Viserys II would have stood by and permitted the murders of Aemon and Naerys.   King Baelor was protective of Naerys; and King Viserys would not have been happy about his firstborn murdering his other 2 children.

Or maybe you are forgetting that I am not suggesting Naerys is guilty of adultery or treason.  Aegon himself never seems to have believed this.  His suspicions were only about Daeron his firstborn, never about Daenerys.  And I would guess that one reason he was happy to keep Naerys as his wife is that he was reasonably sure that any children born to Naerys (after Daeron) would be his.

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The man is suspected to have done away with his father, Viserys II, after all, so one should also expect he could have found a way ruin and destroy his siblings.

Even after his accession to the throne, Aegon is believed to have been held back by his fear of the Dragonknight.   But, in the end, neither Aemon nor Naerys survived his reign.  But he has nothing in particular to avenge here.   The problem, in this case, is not that Aemon and Naerys betrayed him after the marriage.  It is merely his suspicion that Daeron is not his. 

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But more importantly, if King Aegon IV had thought his son Daeron was actually his brother's son - a man he never get along with, anyway - then Daeron would have never been made his heir.

You are arguing against the text her.  We are told Aegon did not want Daeron as his heir, but feared the consequences of disinheriting him.  Of course, it is conceivable that Daeron really was Aegon's son, and Aegon's real problem (whatever he may have said) was simply that he did not like Daeron.  But you are presenting this as an argument against the suggestion that Daeron was not his son.  In fact, Aegon suspecting that Daeron was not his son is perfectly consistent with what we know.

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Even more importantly, if there had been any truth to the rumors the king spread late in his life then there would have been enough ammunition to destroy Daeron for good, especially after Aemon and Naerys were dead. If the king had witnesses and proof proving his accusations, he could have disinherited Daeron, married his daughter Daenerys (assuming she was Aegon's) to Daemon Blackfyre, and name him his new heir.

Witnesses to prove what accusations?  Pre-marital sex?  What would the witnesses say?  That Aemon and Naerys were inseparable companions before the marriage?  Would a maester need to tell him that Targaryen siblings who are very close have a distressing tendency to get the hots for each other?   I'm sure some witnesses at the tournament noticed that Aemon named Naerys queen of love and beauty.  There may be other clues than this, but they would be subtle ones.

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If there had been credible witnesses and actual substance to the Daeron Falseborn ideas then the Dornish and Daeron's other friends wouldn't have had much ground for complaints.  Aegon IV wouldn't have had any political problems.   

Yes he would.  There were no credible charges of adultery or treason.  But it is still plausible that Daeron is not (genetically speaking) the son of Aegon.

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There is no indication that Naerys ever wanted to marry Aemon. For all we know she never wanted to marry anyone.

Irrelevant.  The question is one of pre-marital sex.  Which can be explained by a moment of weakness and passion between two horny teenagers.

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Also, you have to keep in mind that Aemon, too, seems to have had little inclination to have sex considering he joined the Kingsguard.

He joined the kingsguard after Naerys married Aegon.  This parallels Bonifer, who swore off other women after Rhaella's marriage to Aerys.

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It is not just that Naerys wasn't interest in sex or marriage, it is that she also indicated she wasn't approving of sibling incest - which isn't surprising in light of the fact that she was very pious -, and that Aemon also took steps never to marry.

You have this bizarre idea that pious people never commit sin.

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If we assume that Aemon joined the KG to be close to Naerys so he could fuck her occasionally ....

No.  That's not the hypothesis under discussion.  The hypothesis under discussion was that Daeron was conceived before the marriage.

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then we face another predicament. The Grand Maester told Naerys another pregnancy could kill her - and eventually such a pregnancy did kill her. Are we to assume that Aemon's alleged desire for his sister - and her desire for him - was stronger than the love they also felt for each other and their concern for Naerys' safety?

The impression we get is that Aegon is supposed to be an utter shithead for insisting that Naerys continue to have sex with him after Daeron's birth. We are not getting the impression that Aemon would have done the same if he and Naerys were in love.

Obviously there was no adultery or treason, as I keep telling you.

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There aren't really any parallels between the Naerys and the Rhaella situation.

Hmmf.  How to have a conversation with one like you?  But no, I'm not saying the scenarios are identical, which seems to be your objection.

[Angel Eyes]

25 minutes ago, Mister Smikes said:

Well, we don't know his exact motivation.  There may have been a mix of motives, and he was certainly a cruel man.  But even a peasant tend to want a male heir, and a family consisting of children that are actually their own.  That is perfectly normal and not "weird speculation".  Doing things for for the sheer hell of being evil, however, is not normal, and GRRM is pretty much on record that he does not like to write that kind of villain because he does not consider them realistic. 

 

... Then why does The Mountain exist?