Jump to content

What was Eddard's future before Robert's Rebellion??


Recommended Posts

Rickard Stark's one of those mysterious figures whose plans have been speculated on for a while. 

Whether he was part of some grand conspiracy or not, though, I'm still puzzled as to what he was doing with his kids. 

Benjen, Lyanna, and Brandon all stay close to home in the North, although Brandon does spend his childhood in the Rills with House Ryswell. Meanwhile, Eddard is sent off to the Vale, to foster with Jon Arryn alongside Robert Baratheon. That's one head of a house paramount, and the heir to another house paramount. But Eddard is a second son. He stands to inherit nothing, and unless he was lucky to get some kind of minor holding or serve his brother Brandon in some administrative or military position, he would have likely gone to the Wall, given the Starks' relationship with the Wall.

Or was there something else going on?

We know that Eddard was at least interested romantically in Ashara Dayne, but even as a second son of House Stark, I can't imagine a scenario where House Dayne agrees to wed Ashara to him. It's hard enough for Catelyn Tully to adjust to the North, and Lynesse Hightower couldn't cut it. You expect me to believe that a Dornish noblewoman will be content living all the way in the North, married to a second son who won't hold any titles to his name?

And sure, there's the whole "conspiracy" idea to remove the king from power and put Rhaegar on the throne, but even if that's true, where does Eddard fit into the picture? Even if the conspiracy did exist, and even if they did succeed in replacing Aerys with Rhaegar, then what was Ned going to do for the rest of his life after he fostered with Jon Arryn? Sure, he solidified an alliance between the North and the Stormlands by helping Robert and Lyanna get engaged, but anyone could have done that.

This isn't a bashing of Eddard, for the record; based on what we know of Brandon Stark, it's clear to me that Eddard was worth twelve of him and he was probably a better Lord of Winterfell than Brandon was ever going to be. But I was thinking about that moment when Eddard laments the fact that he wasn't supposed to be Lord of Winterfell, how he never asked for his brother's titles, but then that makes me wonder, what DID Eddard want or expect to happen?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Amongst other things, I don't think it is a strange assumption that Ned would not live in the North. Certainly he loves it, but Winterfell would be Bran's and go to his sons. Ned could end up a household knight in the north, but just as well we know he was like brother to Robert who would have married Lyanna. Just as Loras did for margaery and the blackfish did for Lysa, Ned might serve Robert and be protector to his sister. 

If such a situation did occur, at the very least the problem of Ashara in the north does not arise. It may still be an untenable match despite, but if southern ambitions is to be assumed I could see Rickard pushing the match to help divide the powers of Dorne. really it would be up to the head of house Dayne and if they wanted their daughter to marry a second son of a great house.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, Floki of the Ironborn said:

Benjen, Lyanna, and Brandon all stay close to home in the North, although Brandon does spend his childhood in the Rills with House Ryswell. Meanwhile, Eddard is sent off to the Vale, to foster with Jon Arryn alongside Robert Baratheon. That's one head of a house paramount, and the heir to another house paramount. But Eddard is a second son. He stands to inherit nothing, and unless he was lucky to get some kind of minor holding or serve his brother Brandon in some administrative or military position, he would have likely gone to the Wall, given the Starks' relationship with the Wall.

It makes sense to me. Rickard wants his heir to be fostered in the North, the place he’ll be ruling. Why not see more of it and understand the people better? Ned spent half his time touring the North and taking a hands on approach with ruling, so we can assume he must have learned that from either his dad or from Jon Arryn, or both. 

As to why send Ned to the Vale: why not? Rickard has little to lose and everything to gain by sending a second son out of the North. Plus it’s in Ned’s best interests if he wants to leave the North and seek his own fortune elsewhere, as the above guy alluded.

2 hours ago, Floki of the Ironborn said:

We know that Eddard was at least interested romantically in Ashara Dayne, but even as a second son of House Stark, I can't imagine a scenario where House Dayne agrees to wed Ashara to him. It's hard enough for Catelyn Tully to adjust to the North, and Lynesse Hightower couldn't cut it. You expect me to believe that a Dornish noblewoman will be content living all the way in the North, married to a second son who won't hold any titles to his name?

House Dayne was willing to marry off a daughter to House Dondarrion, why not House Stark? And again, as has already been said, there’s no guarantee Ned will live in the North. He could very well have moved to the Stormlands and served Robert. Maybe he would have been able to start a cadet branch, we know how generous Robert is to his friends. 
 

2 hours ago, Floki of the Ironborn said:

 

And sure, there's the whole "conspiracy" idea to remove the king from power and put Rhaegar on the throne, but even if that's true, where does Eddard fit into the picture? Even if the conspiracy did exist, and even if they did succeed in replacing Aerys with Rhaegar, then what was Ned going to do for the rest of his life after he fostered with Jon Arryn? Sure, he solidified an alliance between the North and the Stormlands by helping Robert and Lyanna get engaged, but anyone could have done that.

 

Sure, but Ned was the one who did it. That’s how things worked out.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

good post, thanks, i've been pondering some Eddard stuff lately.


why were Robert & Eddard even friends?
wouldn't Brandon & Robert be more likely to hang out? 
Stannis & Eddard would make sense as friends.


remember the line when Robert & Eddard are riding to go hunting at Winterfell:
 

"

A Game of Thrones - Eddard II

A smile touched Ned's lips. "I do believe you mean it."

"I do, I do," the king said. "What do you say, Ned? Just you and me, two vagabond knights on the kingsroad, our swords at our sides and the gods know what in front of us, and maybe a farmer's daughter or a tavern wench to warm our beds tonight."

"Would that we could," Ned said, "but we have duties now, my liege … to the realm, to our children, I to my lady wife and you to your queen. We are not the boys we were."

"

 

could be that being vagabond knights (even though Ned 'isn't/wasn't? a knight?) were what they were planning for their career paths?

personally, i think that with Robert likely being the more 'powerful' of the two (he will inherit/be a Lord) that Eddard would have been his #1 guy & that would have been his in on a choice job.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

19 hours ago, Yaya said:

why were Robert & Eddard even friends?
wouldn't Brandon & Robert be more likely to hang out? 
Stannis & Eddard would make sense as friends.

I agree. Brandon and Robert are the same kind of hot-heads who love to f***, fight, and feast. Maybe Eddard was drawn to Robert for that reason?

And Stannis probably could have used Eddard in his life much more than Robert, frankly. Eddard's also about duty and honour, but he's not quite so bitter or lonely as Stannis is. If Stannis had had Eddard as his friend, he could have had a surrogate brother of his own to make up for his older brother being such a hedonistic and careless bully. 

Granted, Robert needed someone like Eddard in his life. He needed someone with a sensible head on his shoulders who could tell Robert the truth. But Robert had plenty of such men in his life. He had Jon Arryn, he had Stannis, and Eddard, but based on his behaviour in the books, he really didn't give any of their advice any time of day, no matter how much he loved them (in Jon and Ned's cases, I mean). So really, I don't think Robert would have been able to be anything other than what he became. He never had the self-control or capacity to change, he was always going to end up like he did. A bloated, weak-minded wastrel who let everything fall apart around him while he buried his head in a cloud of food, bad habits, and sex.

22 hours ago, Floki of the Ironborn said:

But I was thinking about that moment when Eddard laments the fact that he wasn't supposed to be Lord of Winterfell, how he never asked for his brother's titles, but then that makes me wonder, what DID Eddard want or expect to happen?

Eddard might not have had a real plan for himself at the time, and given his position in the books, it makes sense to me that he'd remember that he was never meant to be Lord of Winterfell. But that doesn't mean he's secretly been wishing his life turned out differently all this time. He was in a moment of great stress, and he was despairing. By all accounts, he was a very successful Warden of the North, given how loyal the North is to his memory and his offspring. And as it's been discussed, he wouldn't have had a clear future as a second son. Maybe he'd have gone to the Wall with Benjen, maybe he would have gotten a job in Brandon or Robert's household, but I never pictured Eddard as the kind of guy who'd hit the road as a hedge knight, even if it was Robert by his side. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

37 minutes ago, James Steller said:

I agree. Brandon and Robert are the same kind of hot-heads who love to f***, fight, and feast. Maybe Eddard was drawn to Robert for that reason?

And Stannis probably could have used Eddard in his life much more than Robert, frankly. Eddard's also about duty and honour, but he's not quite so bitter or lonely as Stannis is. If Stannis had had Eddard as his friend, he could have had a surrogate brother of his own to make up for his older brother being such a hedonistic and careless bully. 

 

Do you think this is the reason why Davos Seaworth is around?

From the TV Tropes page for House Seaworth:

  • Suspiciously Similar Substitute: To Ned Stark. A trusted right-Hand man to a Baratheon king, relied upon for his loyalty and honest counsel. One of the most noble and heroic characters of the series, but his honor tends to get him in trouble.
Link to comment
Share on other sites

19 minutes ago, Angel Eyes said:

Do you think this is the reason why Davos Seaworth is around?

From the TV Tropes page for House Seaworth:

  • Suspiciously Similar Substitute: To Ned Stark. A trusted right-Hand man to a Baratheon king, relied upon for his loyalty and honest counsel. One of the most noble and heroic characters of the series, but his honor tends to get him in trouble.

Heh, well, the abomination is a bit different from the books, we can all agree. Davos and Stannis don't have the same dynamic as Stannis and Eddard would have had, though. Eddard and Stannis would both be second sons of paramount houses, while Davos is from Flea Bottom. Plus, Davos isn't as wholesome as the abomination made him out to be; he's not close with his youngest sons, whom he's quite happy to leave back at the Rainwood with his wife, whom he's cheated on more than once. He was also a smuggler from Flea Bottom for years, so he would have had to associate with some seedy people. In some ways, Stannis saved Davos just as much as Davos saved him. That dynamic could also still exist if Eddard was in the picture. It just means that Stannis is actually pleased to see Eddard when he shows up to relieve the siege. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 7/24/2021 at 8:51 PM, Floki of the Ironborn said:

 But Eddard is a second son. He stands to inherit nothing, and unless he was lucky to get some kind of minor holding or serve his brother Brandon in some administrative or military position, he would have likely gone to the Wall, given the Starks' relationship with the Wall.

If you look at the Stark family tree from FaB, which encompasses the last 2 centuries or so, then it is evident that second sons of a lord didn't go to the Wall. At least not as young men, since they all had wives, etc. In fact, it seems that third and fourth sons also all married, with one possible exception - but then, he may have just died young. The North is huge and a lord Stark could use all the help that he can get from his brothers to rule it effectively. The travel time alone to reach the places where disputes needed solving or some shady stuff needed looking into requires weeks or months. Not to mention that a brother would pick up the pieces should a lord fail to produce heirs or die young. So, there should have been both power and prestige, as well as important function to carry out for Ned as a second son in the North. In fact, given Brandon's Robert-like traits, it wouldn't have surprised me if Ned ended up with all the nitty-gritty work of  ruling if his brother had lived.

It is actually highly unusual and a big exception compared to the other noble houses of the North depicted in the books that Benjen as an  only surviving brother of a lord joined the NW, and it certainly greatly contributed to the downfall of the Starks.

Lord Rickard may have also hoped for a southern career for Ned, maybe at court, perhaps as a member of the Small Council eventually. Or he may have just hoped that Ned's southern experience would help the Starks build up closer ties, political and economical ones, with the south.  Lyanna's betrothal to Robert was the result of his and Ned's friendship, for instance. There were certainly many different options available to him.

In general, second sons of powerful lords in ASoIaF don't seem to have any difficulties finding brides. There are even odder matches, like Ser Daven Lannister having been in negotions for the only daughter of Lord Redwyne when Tywin made his deal with the Freys or Ned's Stark great-aunt having been married to the second son of the junior (landless) Royce line.

I don't agree that Ned was romantically interested in Ashara Dayne, I think that it was Brandon and that he was the father of her allegedly stillborn daughter.

 

@Yaya:

I think that Robert and Brandon were too alike to be friends. They would have quarreled over women, competed too much, etc. Opposites attract and all that.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

22 hours ago, Yaya said:

why were Robert & Eddard even friends?
wouldn't Brandon & Robert be more likely to hang out? 
Stannis & Eddard would make sense as friends.

That reasoning concludes that the only way people can be friends are mirrors of each others. And that's simply not true.

It's not even strange that those two grew up close, they were practically raised together. 

 

2 hours ago, James Steller said:

and careless bully. 

:rolleyes:

 

About Op's question. Ned likely stays on the North, serving in a castle in the name of his brother.

 

 

 

On 7/24/2021 at 8:51 PM, Floki of the Ironborn said:

what DID Eddard want or expect to happen?

I doubt he had much thought of this, he was 17-19 when all hell broke loose.

 

 

On 7/24/2021 at 8:51 PM, Floki of the Ironborn said:

it's clear to me that Eddard was worth twelve of him and he was probably a better Lord of Winterfell than Brandon was ever going to be.

Based on nothing... 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

6 minutes ago, frenin said:

Based on nothing... 

Based on the fact that Brandon was such a clueless hot-head that he raced all the way from the Riverlands to the Red Keep to loudly proclaim his intention to kill the Mad King's son and heir right outside the Mad King's home. What the hell did that dumb ox THINK was going to happen to him? Rhetorical question, he wasn't thinking at all, clearly. It is quite possibly among the top ten or even five dumbest actions I've ever heard of in literature. A reckless and near-suicidal move like that makes Santino Corleone look like Stannis Baratheon! So I have no problem thinking that because Eddard Stark thinks rationally in even the most average manner, he is already more qualified than Brandon.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, Floki of the Ironborn said:

Based on the fact that Brandon was such a clueless hot-head that he raced all the way from the Riverlands to the Red Keep to loudly proclaim his intention to kill the Mad King's son and heir right outside the Mad King's home. What the hell did that dumb ox THINK was going to happen to him? Rhetorical question, he wasn't thinking at all, clearly. It is quite possibly among the top ten or even five dumbest actions I've ever heard of in literature. A reckless and near-suicidal move like that makes Santino Corleone look like Stannis Baratheon! So I have no problem thinking that because Eddard Stark thinks rationally in even the most average manner, he is already more qualified than Brandon.

So a mistake made in a moment of rage and despair disqualifies you as Lord?? Is Ned a bad lord because he foolishly chose to save Cersei and her children, giving her a heads up??

That has literally nothing to do with Brandon's skills or lack of thereof as ruler, it just speaks as him as a person.

There's no single player of the game, be it Tywin be it Rhaegar, be it Stannis be it Robb, be it Baon be it Aerys... who did not make a big mistake. For them however we have the full, or well a bigger picture, yet Brandon is judged by one action as if the rest of his peers were flawless.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

10 hours ago, frenin said:

So a mistake made in a moment of rage and despair disqualifies you as Lord?? Is Ned a bad lord because he foolishly chose to save Cersei and her children, giving her a heads up??

That has literally nothing to do with Brandon's skills or lack of thereof as ruler, it just speaks as him as a person.

There's no single player of the game, be it Tywin be it Rhaegar, be it Stannis be it Robb, be it Baon be it Aerys... who did not make a big mistake. For them however we have the full, or well a bigger picture, yet Brandon is judged by one action as if the rest of his peers were flawless.

It's in keeping with Brandon's behaviour. He's an impulsive guy, fuelled by his own desires and emotions. He deflowers the only daughter of Lord Ryswell. When Robb Stark did that to Jeyne Westerling, he felt compelled to marry her despite the huge cost to his own cause. It's debatable whether or not Brandon was tempted to do the same, but I doubt it, since he was going to marry Catelyn. I think he was stringing Barbrey along with claims of love. He was known to be a wild and hot blooded man. He was even angrier than Robert himself when Lyanna was crowned by Rhaegar at Harrenhal. He was clearly a capable warrior, but we get no evidence that he's a capable administrator or ruler. His noted example of leading was leading several young lordlings to their imprisonment and the subsequent deaths of them and their fathers, as well as his own father and himself. And it's not like nobody could have predicted such a disaster; the Mad King was known to be mad, everyone who saw him at Harrenhal could attest to that.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 7/24/2021 at 10:35 PM, Yaya said:

Stannis & Eddard would make sense as friends.

We know relatively little about Brandon and what we do know is second-hand at best, so we can only speculate about how Brandon and Robert got along. But we see quite a lot of Stannis and Ned and it's quite clear that they're not friends, and there are good reasons for that. They're not very similar, when all is said and done.

One of the main things about Ned is that he is, at heart, a very loving and sensitive man: as a friend, a father and a husband, he loves very deeply. Stannis... does not. I don't mean to say he doesn't care for anyone. But he isn't comfortable acknowledging, let alone expressing, that love. He's also jealous, prickly and proud, none of which are traits Ned would find congenial.

In fact, with the exception of Davos - and that's arguable, in some ways - Stannis doesn't seem to have a single friendship or really close relationship in his life. Contrast that with Ned, who loves and is genuinely loved.

Yes, both men care about things like honour and justice and honesty - but in very different ways, and that difference in their emotional intelligence is at the heart of those differences.

Anyway, back on-topic: I agree that Ned was intended by his father for a fate other than the NW. Apart from anything else, there's never an indication from Ned that he ever contemplated joining himself, and it seems unlikely that he was unaware if that was the intention. More likely, he was intended to shore up alliances down South. If Brandon had wed Catelyn, as intended, perhaps Ned would have joined Hoster's household. Perhaps he'd have stayed in the Vale or gone to the Stormlands with Robert. Or, as others have suggested, he'd have been Brandon's right hand man. There are numerous possibilities.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 hours ago, James Steller said:

It's in keeping with Brandon's behaviour.

Brandon is impulsive, yet it takes the perfect storm for him to feel the need to ride for Rhaegar's head.

 

3 hours ago, James Steller said:

He deflowers the only daughter of Lord Ryswell.

So...

 

3 hours ago, James Steller said:

When Robb Stark did that to Jeyne Westerling, he felt compelled to marry her despite the huge cost to his own cause.

Which is terribly stupid.

 

Quote

He was even angrier than Robert himself when Lyanna was crowned by Rhaegar at Harrenhal

So...

 

Quote

but we get no evidence that he's a capable administrator or ruler.

I mean, he died before getting the office. I still don't know how any of that disqualifies him as ruler.

There have been several rulers in history with Brandon's traits, some were good, some were awful, some were mediocre.

 

3 hours ago, James Steller said:

And it's not like nobody could have predicted such a disaster; the Mad King was known to be mad, everyone who saw him at Harrenhal could attest to that.

Clearly no one thought that Aerys could pull what he pulled. Else people would not have gone.

There is being mad and there's willy nilly killing a string of highlords mad.

You haven't answered me however, is Ned a bad lord because he chose not to tell Robert?? 

We know little of Brandon, we don't know how was trained and prepared for the position to categorically state who would've been the better Lord.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 7/24/2021 at 2:51 PM, Floki of the Ironborn said:

Rickard Stark's one of those mysterious figures whose plans have been speculated on for a while. 

Whether he was part of some grand conspiracy or not, though, I'm still puzzled as to what he was doing with his kids. 

Benjen, Lyanna, and Brandon all stay close to home in the North, although Brandon does spend his childhood in the Rills with House Ryswell. Meanwhile, Eddard is sent off to the Vale, to foster with Jon Arryn alongside Robert Baratheon. That's one head of a house paramount, and the heir to another house paramount. But Eddard is a second son. He stands to inherit nothing, and unless he was lucky to get some kind of minor holding or serve his brother Brandon in some administrative or military position, he would have likely gone to the Wall, given the Starks' relationship with the Wall.

Or was there something else going on?

We know that Eddard was at least interested romantically in Ashara Dayne, but even as a second son of House Stark, I can't imagine a scenario where House Dayne agrees to wed Ashara to him. It's hard enough for Catelyn Tully to adjust to the North, and Lynesse Hightower couldn't cut it. You expect me to believe that a Dornish noblewoman will be content living all the way in the North, married to a second son who won't hold any titles to his name?

And sure, there's the whole "conspiracy" idea to remove the king from power and put Rhaegar on the throne, but even if that's true, where does Eddard fit into the picture? Even if the conspiracy did exist, and even if they did succeed in replacing Aerys with Rhaegar, then what was Ned going to do for the rest of his life after he fostered with Jon Arryn? Sure, he solidified an alliance between the North and the Stormlands by helping Robert and Lyanna get engaged, but anyone could have done that.

This isn't a bashing of Eddard, for the record; based on what we know of Brandon Stark, it's clear to me that Eddard was worth twelve of him and he was probably a better Lord of Winterfell than Brandon was ever going to be. But I was thinking about that moment when Eddard laments the fact that he wasn't supposed to be Lord of Winterfell, how he never asked for his brother's titles, but then that makes me wonder, what DID Eddard want or expect to happen?

My guess is that Ned would have married the daughter of a Vale lord, probably a Royce since that's been done before, or perhaps a northern lord because that's how paramounts shore up there support. Either way, he would support Brandon with arms and resources from whatever seat he occupies.

I doubt Rickon would have sent Ned to the Wall. He is too valuable in terms of alliance-building. Benjen maybe, but only if the political winds favored it.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

6 hours ago, mormont said:

Anyway, back on-topic: I agree that Ned was intended by his father for a fate other than the NW. Apart from anything else, there's never an indication from Ned that he ever contemplated joining himself, and it seems unlikely that he was unaware if that was the intention. More likely, he was intended to shore up alliances down South. If Brandon had wed Catelyn, as intended, perhaps Ned would have joined Hoster's household. Perhaps he'd have stayed in the Vale or gone to the Stormlands with Robert. Or, as others have suggested, he'd have been Brandon's right hand man. There are numerous possibilities.

Based on how Ned acted when Jon said he wanted to join and the pattern of second sons of great lords becoming prominent leaders in society -- peppered with a dash of GRRM never mentioning why Benjen left WF as the only other living Stark -- Ned wasn't on the path to  joining the NW. Truth be told he'd have a rather mundane position not to dissimilar from BF. Keeper of the Gates might actually have been something Jon would have asked of him, given his lack of close heirs. Something like castellan of WF or SE works just as well.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

6 hours ago, frenin said:

You haven't answered me however, is Ned a bad lord because he chose not to tell Robert?? 

Brandon and Ned both made really irrational decisions motivated by emotion. But for my part, there's a world of difference between a man feeling guilty over potentially causing innocent children's deaths and a man who, to paraphrase what Floki said, seems to have travelled all the way to King's Landing in such a rage that he didn't give his actions a second thought. 

Ned was agonising over the fact that Tommen and Myrcella didn't ask for the mess they were in, and he wanted to give them the mercy of a chance to escape being butchered like the Targaryen children. It's fear, guilty, and trauma on Ned's part. I think he was stupid, but I can understand where his stupidity came from.

Brandon, meanwhile, was convinced that he could threaten his prince with death in full view of hundreds of witnesses, including said prince's father, who was last seen by Brandon himself as a completely insane degenerate who wanted an anonymous knight executed because he thought the knight was a danger to him. Brandon should have been able to have even a second's hesitation over what he was going to do, but he apparently didn't. I can't imagine a human being with rational thought spending weeks of travel to do something so completely dumb and not once consider the potential consequences.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 7/24/2021 at 11:51 AM, Floki of the Ironborn said:

We know that Eddard was at least interested romantically in Ashara Dayne

I'm not convinced we know this. The key quote from Meera's story is this:

Quote

The crannogman saw a maid with laughing purple eyes dance with a white sword, a red snake, and the lord of griffins, and lastly with the quiet wolf . . . but only after the wild wolf spoke to her on behalf of a brother too shy to leave his bench.

I can see how you can interpret "too shy to leave his bench" as "he wanted to ask Ashara, but was too shy to do it," but I think you can also read it as "Ned was too shy in general to dance and socialize, so his more outgoing older brother asked a pretty lady to dance with his square little brother."

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

×
×
  • Create New...