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Floki of the Ironborn

What was Eddard's future before Robert's Rebellion??

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18 hours ago, LindsayLohan said:

Ned did get the plan for repopulating the New Gift with petty lords from Rickard, right? Establishing new holdfasts for the protection of smallfolk, which would have been a lightening rod for plural sons and noble bastards. 

 

Ned hinted at it twice. Once when he told Brandon he would hold a castle or keep in Robb's name, and again when Jon reveals he was aware of Ned's plan. Rickard might have had Southron Ambitions, but he was also looking north.

Richard was probably a pawn of the radicals within the citadel. He was goaded into the marriage pacts which led to the war.

The looking to the north probably would lead to a lot of illegitimates. Babies which could be left on the other side of the wall as a gift to either wildlings or White Walkers. The opposite of what Allysanne’s actions did. It was going to be a reversal.  

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I think the safest choice would have been to have Ned marry a Northern woman to placate the potential problem if an entire generation of Stark children married outside the North and ignore their bannermen. I have a feeling Barbrey was speaking the truth about her father attempting to create a betrothal for Barbrey and Ned and would have gotten close had it not been for Brandon and Rickard's executions. And given recent Northern history, it'd be safer for Ned to stick around Winterfell or the North since there's been multiple succession crises and constant Stark endangerments. 

Ned certainly wouldn't marry Lysa since Tywin and Hoster were seemingly attempting to try and start a betrothal between Jaime and Lysa. Ashara, even if Ned had feelings for her, wouldn't be as directly influential between House Dayne being not the ruling house of Dorne and the furthest distance away from the North. 

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1 hour ago, Danbito said:

I think the safest choice would have been to have Ned marry a Northern woman to placate the potential problem if an entire generation of Stark children married outside the North and ignore their bannermen. I have a feeling Barbrey was speaking the truth about her father attempting to create a betrothal for Barbrey and Ned and would have gotten close had it not been for Brandon and Rickard's executions. And given recent Northern history, it'd be safer for Ned to stick around Winterfell or the North since there's been multiple succession crises and constant Stark endangerments. 

The Barbrey situation doesn't work either, though. Again, unless Ned was set to inherit some brand new little holdfast somewhere in the Gift, where was he going to live? Barbrey has four brothers, she's not going to inherit the Rills anytime soon. That's why she married into House Dustin and lives at Barrowton and calls herself Barbrey Dustin even decades after her husband's demise. 

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Posted (edited)
7 minutes ago, James Steller said:

The Barbrey situation doesn't work either, though. Again, unless Ned was set to inherit some brand new little holdfast somewhere in the Gift, where was he going to live? Barbrey has four brothers, she's not going to inherit the Rills anytime soon. That's why she married into House Dustin and lives at Barrowton and calls herself Barbrey Dustin even decades after her husband's demise. 

Well, second sons seem to live at the behest of whoever was higher on the societal food chain between their family or their spouse's family. Contrast two cases with the Lannister family; Kevan, who married the daughter of a landed knight whose house was disgraced, is a household night at Casterly Rock in the employ of his elder brother Tywin. Emmon Frey, who married Genna Lannister, primarily lives at Casterly Rock, the castle of his brother-in-law.

Edited by Angel Eyes

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8 minutes ago, James Steller said:

The Barbrey situation doesn't work either, though. Again, unless Ned was set to inherit some brand new little holdfast somewhere in the Gift, where was he going to live? Barbrey has four brothers, she's not going to inherit the Rills anytime soon. That's why she married into House Dustin and lives at Barrowton and calls herself Barbrey Dustin even decades after her husband's demise. 

How was she allowed to keep it? Contrast with the other case of a Northern widow where Donella Hornwood had suitors lined up around the door. Barbrey somehow managed to fend off anyone who tried to take control of the Dustin lands despite being more than twenty years younger than Donella when she was widowed (hence why I had a thread years ago that Barbrey might secretly be a badass).

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3 hours ago, James Steller said:

The Barbrey situation doesn't work either, though. Again, unless Ned was set to inherit some brand new little holdfast somewhere in the Gift, where was he going to live? Barbrey has four brothers, she's not going to inherit the Rills anytime soon. That's why she married into House Dustin and lives at Barrowton and calls herself Barbrey Dustin even decades after her husband's demise. 

Works just fine, second children marry and marry well all the time, and third and fourth and... They tend to live at court or they are given small tracts of land.

You only need to take a good look to how many good matches Frey got for his children and grandchlidren and great grandchildren.

Marrying to Ned means that House Dustin has influence in Winterfell  through Ned.

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59 minutes ago, frenin said:

Works just fine, second children marry and marry well all the time, and third and fourth and... They tend to live at court or they are given small tracts of land.

You only need to take a good look to how many good matches Frey got for his children and grandchlidren and great grandchildren.

Marrying to Ned means that House Dustin has influence in Winterfell  through Ned.

House Ryswell, you mean. 

And wasn’t there a whole plot point about Genna’s engagement to Emmon Frey being so badly matched that Roger Reyne stormed out of Casterly Rock while a twelve year old Tywin slapped his own father around for allowing it to happen?

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22 minutes ago, Canon Claude said:

House Ryswell, you mean. 

Indeed.

 

22 minutes ago, Canon Claude said:

And wasn’t there a whole plot point about Genna’s engagement to Emmon Frey being so badly matched that Roger Reyne stormed out of Casterly Rock while a twelve year old Tywin slapped his own father around for allowing it to happen?

 

  • No one slapped anyone.
  • The only daughter of the the Lord of Casterly Rock can aspire to much more than the Freys. let alone the second born, it's like marrying Sansa to... Emmon Frey, but no one would bat an eye if Alys Karstark were to be betrothed to Bran.  According to their houses, there are indeed advantages to such matches, Walder's children have been married or betrothed to half the nobility in Westeros. Tywin himself was more than ready to marry his only daughtet to Viserys, even after Rhaegar's children had been born.

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59 minutes ago, Canon Claude said:

House Ryswell, you mean. 

And wasn’t there a whole plot point about Genna’s engagement to Emmon Frey being so badly matched that Roger Reyne stormed out of Casterly Rock while a twelve year old Tywin slapped his own father around for allowing it to happen?

Didn't stop the match from going through.

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On 8/18/2021 at 7:31 PM, Floki of the Ironborn said:

Then how do you explain the Glover situation? Galbart's an unmarried childless man, while his brother is married with two kids. Garlan Tyrell was married long before Willas was even engaged, and certainly before Garlan was set to inherit any titles of his own.

Willas barely has a leg to stand on with respect to marriage. He should have been betrothed a long time ago.

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3 minutes ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

Willas barely has a leg to stand on with respect to marriage. He should have been betrothed a long time ago.

I see this as an Edmure type of thing.

Both parents were ready to betroth their children when a good enough match came (Sansa, Arianne) but are not particularly bothered by time.

Bachelor highlords aren't the norm but they happen.

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52 minutes ago, frenin said:

I see this as an Edmure type of thing.

Both parents were ready to betroth their children when a good enough match came (Sansa, Arianne) but are not particularly bothered by time.

Bachelor highlords aren't the norm but they happen.

I saw it as more of a jousting accident byproduct.

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17 minutes ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

I saw it as more of a jousting accident byproduct.

He's still the heir of Highgarden, so that's pretty much immaterial.

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If Robert's rebellion still occured without Brandon dying prior, I could see Robert giving Ned land of one of the Stormlanders who sided with the Targaryens to start a Stark branch in his home kingdom. Either that or I can see Ned being on Robert's council or kingsguard.

If Robert rebellion never happens I could possibly see a similar situation in the Vale. Maybe Ned takes a roll similar to the blackfish. We know his father probably had Southron Ambitions and what way to link the kingdoms then actually have branches in eachother territory. 

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6 hours ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

for now. ive not seen any evidence that garlan isn't trying to kill him

I have not seen any evidence that proves that Ned didn't egg Aerys into murdering his father and brother, si be could get Winterfell.

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On 8/20/2021 at 3:05 PM, James Steller said:

The Barbrey situation doesn't work either, though. Again, unless Ned was set to inherit some brand new little holdfast somewhere in the Gift, where was he going to live? Barbrey has four brothers, she's not going to inherit the Rills anytime soon. That's why she married into House Dustin and lives at Barrowton and calls herself Barbrey Dustin even decades after her husband's demise. 

Multiple generations of Starks have lived at Winterfell married without being the heir. Castles like Winterfell are large enough to sustain them and marriages to second-born Starks are still desirable since its marrying into the ruling house. Especially ambitious houses like Ryswell that would realize that the original desired match of Barbrey with Brandon isn't happening, they wouldn't just withdraw because Ned is second-born. 

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Agreed, there's no problem with Ned living at Winterfell after he marries. This idea that every noble son needs to have his own castle/holdfast/demesne to live in is not really in tune with medieval life. Ned, as Brandon's brother, would be a major part of his household: fulfilling the role of castellan when his brother is away, emissary, judge, adviser, administrator, and military leader when required.

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Ned told Bran he would have a keep of his own, which yes, is a big assumption that a keep will come available. I'd guess the Blackfish scenario is more common - the younger sons go to more important castles/centres - wherever needs a boost of military expertise or political connections or whatever. (Usually they'd be sent of course, not just take off and go.)

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9 hours ago, Danbito said:

Multiple generations of Starks have lived at Winterfell married without being the heir. Castles like Winterfell are large enough to sustain them and marriages to second-born Starks are still desirable since its marrying into the ruling house. Especially ambitious houses like Ryswell that would realize that the original desired match of Barbrey with Brandon isn't happening, they wouldn't just withdraw because Ned is second-born. 

So how come they just gave up and married Barbrey to Willam Dustin?

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