Westeros MII:TW Mod Units

[Maester Yobjascz]

Merentha -

The description I read of the Forlorn Hope said that they were heavily armored infantry with 2-handed swords. I based my comment on that...

When I think of an Umber unit, I'm thinking of a special unit, not a general benefit gained by all troops recruited at the Last Hearth. As a special unit, we control the unit size and armor. The Umbers aren't known for wearing armors... so I'd put a special Umber unit in leather armor. For weapons, perhaps greatswords, but likely axes.

From there, it's just a question of stats. I think there are two approaches here. We could either give them high attack values, but remember that they'll have low armor... so the end result is something along the lines of the woodsmen. The other approach is to give them stats like normal light infantry, but give them an additional hitpoint. Given their light armor and relatively low combat skills, I don't think a 2nd hitpoint would be obscene.

[Maester Yobjascz]

Okay... let's get the ball rolling on the Andals. We'll generate a standard Andal template first, and then customize the individual factions (Arryn, Stormlands, Crownlands, Reach, Riverlands, and Westerlands).

-Infantry

X-Heavy Infantry (Full Plate, Sword, Shield) (Very Rare) (Small)

Heavy Infantry (Plate and Mail, Sword, Shield) (Rare) (Average)

Medium Sword (Mail, Sword, Shield) (Common) (Average)

Medium Spear (Mail, Spear) (Common) (Average)

Light Sword (Leather, Sword, Shield) (Common) (Average)

Light Spear (Leather, Spear, Shield) (Prevalent) (Average)

Smallfolk Spear (Padded, Spear) (Prevalent) (Large)

Smallfolk Axe (Padded, Axe) (Common) (Average)

- Cavalry

X-Heavy Sword (Full Plate, Sword, Shield) (Very Rare) (Small)

X-Heavy Lance (Full Plate, Lance, Shield) (Very Rare) (Small)

Heavy Sword (Plate and Mail, Sword, Shield) (Uncommon) (Average)

Heavy Lance (Plate and Mail, Lance, Shield) (Rare) (Average)

Medium Sword (Mail, Sword, Shield) (Common) (Average)

Medium Lance (Mail, Lance, Shield) (Common) (Average)

Light Sword (Leather, Sword, Shield) (Common) (Average)

Light Lance (Leather, Lance, Shield) (Common) (Average)

Smallfolk Spear (Padded, Spear, Shield) (Common) (Average)

- Missile

Archer (Leather, Bow, Dagger) (Common) (Average)

Crossbowmen (Leather, Crossbow, Dagger) (Common) (Average)

Smallfolk Archer (Padded, Bow, Dagger) (Common) (Large)

Smallfolk Crossbowmen (Padded, Crossbow, Dagger) (Uncommon) (Average)

Skirmisher (Leather, Javelin, Sword, Shield) (Uncommon) (Average)

- Generals

Standard X-Heavy Cavalry (Full Plate, Sword, Shield)

- Siege

Standard Types

- Naval

Dhow (Prevalent) [reduced stats for fishing boats/transport]

Longship (Common)

Galleas (Common)

Galley (Common)

War Galley (Uncommon)

Dromond (Rare)

- Special

?

[SubDeity]

Based on what we've seen, the Andal forces are generally based around the armies France used to field in the Middle Ages. At least, the Lannisters definitely are. That means crossbows and a few normal bows, not the longbows that the English fielded (Dorne seems to field them, though). They field heavy knights as a dominant force in their army, and often pick up their light cavalry via mercenaries (I believe this could be implemented in the mod, as well). Their armies seem to have professional cores of knights combined with conscripted levies, so elite heavy infantry should probably be made hard-to-get, late-game additions.

To separate each faction apart, we'll probably want to mix up their stats/bonuses. For example, it may be possible to give Arryn units snow bonuses, Reach knights a better charge, etc. Some factions, like the Riverlands, are implied to be weaker than others in the books, and we could reflect that as well in their stats.

Just a few ideas to get going, we could add more specifics if needed.

[Bazzlebane]

Earlier in these discussions Ran pulled up a quote where a Lannister army was described to have longbows.

[Merentha]

Earlier in these discussions Ran pulled up a quote where a Lannister army was described to have longbows.

[Maester Yobjascz]

Comments:

- SubD: What you've described generally holds true... however, I'm generally against giving stat bonuses as you've described. There's nothing in the books that suggests that men from the Vale are better in snow, or that knights from the Reach are better lancers. Men are men... The Reach does place a greater emphasis on mounted cavalry, so I'd make their castles more likely to have the buildings required to build knights from the start... and to make their recruitment a bit cheaper. The Riverlands units aren't any weaker than those from other regions... they're just screwed geographically.

- Baz: I recall Ran mentioning that about longbows... and if they're available to Andal factions, then they're likely available to the Dornish and Northern factions as well, no?

- Merentha: I agree with you there... though I'm not sure how much rarer you'd like me to make the fully-plated knights. Only the Andals have access to them, and even then, I've listed them as 'Very Rare' and only available in 'Small' units. It's the most rare I can make them. :)

[Merentha]

The Lannisters, being richer than most, could likely pay for better equipment as well as maintain a standing army, unlike the rest of the Andal armies. This could give them access to longbowmen, who take far longer to train than a typical peasant levy, which can be given crossbows in a matter of days, if not less.

Their armies seem to have professional cores of knights combined with conscripted levies, so elite heavy infantry should probably be made hard-to-get, late-game additions.

[Maester Yobjascz]

But if it's simply a function of wealth and economics, why not give the Lannisters enough resources to be wealthy, and work it that way? This way, you get a natural dynamic, as opposed to a heavy-handed 'cuz I say so' approach.

[Merentha]

In the quote, do we get the impression that the Lannister longbows are levies, or professional fighters?

But if it's simply a function of wealth and economics, why not give the Lannisters enough resources to be wealthy, and work it that way? This way, you get a natural dynamic, as opposed to a heavy-handed 'cuz I say so' approach.

[aeoleron9]

I'm curious about the distinction between lancers and sword-armed cavalry; usually a lance cav also carries a sword as second weapon and will switch to it in melee. There are also some special shock cavs with axes and maces as their primary weapon like huscarls and war clerics, but I don't think there are many sword-only cavalry units.

And on the infantry heavies, there's a mod emphasizing the effects of armor and elite knight units (RealCombat by Pointblank) you can look into; it's very close to what you're suggesting, only with much better payback from the heavies than the original game. Well-armored knights can cut several units of lowly peasants and militias to pieces, but a few of the same spear militias can withstand the cav charge that knights cannot. It's an intuitive balance the original game failed to achieve imo.

[Bazzlebane]

Ran discussed bows in Westeros in this post.

[SubDeity]

One problem: The use of longbows is likely an error on Martin's part. Longbows take years of training with to become effective weapons. That's why only the English used them widely; they mandated training by law. If the Westerosi are using them, they either aren't very good with them (as in, can only fire a shot or two per minute for only a few minutes), their bows are much weaker (possible), or they have some funky trees (lets not go there). I'd say that if we include longbows, we make the standard longbows the top level. Yeoman archers and retinue longbows (England's super-archers) are unlikely in Martin's world. Regular longbows we could probably get away with, though. Crossbows would likely prevail in the armies that Westeros fields, as they largely have a French build to them, with a strong knight core supported by crossbows and light levy infantry. I haven't seen an English-style army yet, which massed longbows and fielded more infantry, with weaker mounted knights.

[Maester Yobjascz]

SubD - I tend to agree with you... while Martin mentions longbowmen, I don't know that we're talking English-style longbows... in any case, I don't recall anything to suggest that the Lannisters (or any other faction, for that matter) was known for it's cadre of long-ranged, high-powered archers. I'm sure someone would've mentioned it in battle plans somewhere: "watch for their archers... they'll hit us before we can hit them", or something like that. I'd make archers archers in this game... whether we call them longbowmen or not.

As I noted earlier, the only possible exceptions I've noted in the novels are *possibly* the Dornish... not that they've got classic longbowmen, but that Dornish Yew is prized for bows. What that yields is highly speculative. And the other group are the Summer Islanders. In AFfC, Sam notes that the bows used by the Islanders on the Cinnamon Wind outrange anything he's seen. If there's evidence for a true longbow unit, that's it. I had suggested a possible meercenary unit of Summer Islander longbow archers, with greater range than other archers... but got no response.

[Marcus]

We can discuss Mercs and rebels afterwards. If we have the base Andal list pounded out, can we go on to the deviations? Great work so far though.

[Merentha]

I'd ditch medium infantry, actually. Andal armies seem like a mass of peasantry and an elite cavalry core, as has been said. For that reason, medium infantry doesn't fit as well. A few medium infantry could be scattered in as special units for the factions, but they don't seem common.

[Maester Yobjascz]

Merentha - Just because the medium infantry isn't seen frequently in the books doesn't mean that they don't exist, nor that the Andal armies couldn't field medium infantry if they wished. There's no particular training necessary for medium infantry, unlike the longbow example you cited earlier. It's just taking light infantry and paying for more expensive armor. It's something that the Andal armies *could* do, but apparently decided not to.

If that's the case, then the player should be able to choose otherwise. They may find it's more effective from a cost/benefit standpoint to follow Tywin's lead and recruit heavy and medium cavalry, and light infantry... but there doesn't appear to be a valid reason why they shouldn't.

[SubDeity]

That seems like the best position to take. Plus, medium infantry in MTW2 are hardly professional. The core English infantry unit is a Levy Spearman, which is a conscript unit that still qualifies as heavy (such units will likely be the core in this mod as well). Also, we have a small dilemma on the infantry portion of things. Now, in MTW2, light infantry is your militia guys, mediums are the levies you pick up at castles, but heavy infantry largely consists of dismounted knights. Now, Westeros hardly lacks for knights, and I'm sure they could dismount if they wanted to, but unlike in MTW1, you can't make them switch back and forth. You either build horse knights or foot knights. So, do we let the player build foot knights, or not? Going by the "they could if they wanted to" attitude, we could allow them, but at least in MTW2, foot knights are quite good units, so if we could include them, the player will build them, which could lead to very few mod games following the book armies, where knights rarely dismount.

Thoughts?

[Maester Yobjascz]

Okay...

After looking over the Andals, I'm not sure how much customization there is. Certainly for the Riverlands and the Vale, we have very little information about their armies, so I'd leave them, for the time being, with the default layout above. Same goes for the Tyrells. If there's any distinction in the composition of their armies, I think it comes down more to economics than anything else. The Tyrells are rich, and can afford the heavier cavalry types, whereas the Riverlands can't... We don't know where the Vale falls on the line, so I'd leave it to their economy to decide. Same for the Stormlands.

However, a couple of thoughts on non-unit options (traits, retinues, etc.)

- Tyrell

Retinue - Knights of Summer - Bonus to Chivalry, reduction in campaign map movement

Retinue - Queen of Thorns - Bonus to Diplomacy, Penalty to Chivalry

- Arryn

Global Trait - Honorable - Lords of the Vale are generally an honorable lot... whatever that means for diplomatic relations.

Trait - Disloyal to Lysa Arryn - Some generals may be honorable in general, but not to Lysa Arryn (i.e. Brynden Tully)

Retinue - Marillion - Reduces Loyalty to Lysa Arryn (?)

- Tully

Global Trait - Family Ties to the Starks - Perhaps this could be used to make the Riverlands more likely to align with (become vassals to) the Starks?

- Stormlands

Retinue - Melisandre - Protection vs. Assassination, Rebellion; If possible, General can now function as an assassin?

That leaves the Lannisters and the Crownlands.

Lannisters - We know they have the Red Cloaks, which I think is best classified as a light infantry unit. However, I'm not sure if they'd qualify for a 'special unit' status. We don't actually know much about them. Perhaps we count them as a Light Infantry unit recruited from Casterly Rock, which has a higher morale value, and perhaps higher combat values, than the regular recruitable light infantry.

Non-unit thoughts:

- Trait - Diplomatic - Is it possible to give a general the ability to function as a diplomat???

Crownlands - The Goldcloaks. These would also be a light infantry unit, perhaps equipped with halberds (or bills, should the animation be corrected). They'd be fairly cheap, and recruitable only at Kings's Landing. They'd have relatively low morale, though higher than the smallfolk units. And, if possible, they should provide a bonus to public order when stationed in a city.

[SubDeity]

I still maintain that the Crownlands should just be a Lannister possession, which carries a public order boost for whoever controls it. That idea for the Gold Cloaks sounds fine, though.

[Maester Yobjascz]

My concern with the Crownlands being a Lannister possession is that, one, it causes problems if we want to opt for later mods/timelines/etc... if we want to model Robert's Rebellion, or something else, having a separate Crownlands faction wouldn't be bad.

Second, there are situations in which the Lannister faction and the Crownlands faction wouldn't be so closely allied, despite Joffrey being on the throne. As it was, Cersei was *demanding* that Tywin leave the Riverlands and defend King's Landing from the Baratheons... he refused. Had Tywin died at that point, and Tyrion taken over the Lannister host after the Battle of the Green Fork, things could've gotten ugly.