Westeros MII:TW Mod Units

[SubDeity]

Well, to make modding easier, perhaps we could enter a sort of "inactive" Targaryen/Crownlands faction that we can activate as needed for alternate time periods. But, it's important to remember that Total War is a very overarching series of games. Minor things like policy disagreements are just glossed over, since you're the God of your empire. If you want possibilities like Tyrion breaking off, give him and a few other guys really low loyalty, but otherwise good stats to encourage use. Really, I think that should go for most factions. Take the Boltons. Do they really need to be their own faction (as I believe they were earlier)? We could easily just have Roose and some other Boltons be good generals with low loyalty. Since characters in the books are more apt to switch sides than simply create their own factions, this may even prove a bit more accurate.

[High Lord Balerion]

Wondering why you are putting galleass in when there is no gun powder in westeros. The Galleass is the Venice version of the Lenternas or Gun Holks.

[aeoleron9]

Tullys are best made a vassal of the Starks, or at least an alliance. Same goes for Crownlands and Lannisters, Tyrells and Renly.

The reason for an independent Crownland has been explained by Marcus here

Some of those Andals are really uncharacteristic, we simply never saw much of them throughout the books. Unfortunately we'll probably end up with very similar armies from the Vale, Riverrun and Storm's end, and I'd say it's OK to have largely similar rosters... since that was what the original game gave for most European factions. For now I'd be contented with just giving them some unique units on high-end; Arryns can have something heavily armored, Storm's end perhaps strong infantry, Tullys..err maybe good bowmen?

It's probably unlikely to get more info from GRRM on these factions atm, and we can always take license and change /balance the rosters later. For now I suggest we grind down the details and keep it moving...

[Maester Yobjascz]

For now I'd be contented with just giving them some unique units on high-end; Arryns can have something heavily armored, Storm's end perhaps strong infantry, Tullys..err maybe good bowmen?

It's probably unlikely to get more info from GRRM on these factions atm, and we can always take license and change /balance the rosters later. For now I suggest we grind down the details and keep it moving...

[SubDeity]

The reason for an independent Crownland has been explained by Marcus here

[aeoleron9]

I agree it wouldn't fit the books too well if Tullys get some super bowmen out of nowhere. It's a compromise, suggested to provide some difference between the Andal armies. There are ways to prevent these unique units directing the style of play and army composition; limiting replenish rates and really high cost/upkeep comes to mind. But if we're fine with the same roster for most Andals then it's all cool, we can still diversify their armies by their wealth and buildings they start out with, etc.

Sub, giving Joffery independence as a state and a chance to defy his granddad IS a unique version of the war. If they're all in the same faction it'll probably play out the same as the books, no?

Vassalage between Stark and Tully is based on the books, they did swear fealty to King Robb. Alliances, marriage or not have already been much improved by several diplomacy mods(well, Ultimate AI's your best bet) out there, and they hold out. Just give them some relations bonus and always have enemies to beat off together, and they'll be peas in a pot. Some AIs will even help their allies out. Unless you keep offending your in-laws by fighting their allies or trespassing(could be prevented by vassalage which grants military access to both sides), infighting between Lannisters or Stark/Tully won't be much of a problem. And I think we're seriously off-topic :D

[Maester Yobjascz]

Back to the original discussion...

Please review the listing below, and let's see if there are any further problems/issues. Also, most of the factions are lacking in 'special' units... that's not necessarily a bad thing, but I'd like to be sure that we're not forgetting anything. Also, there is not much differentiation among the Andal factions. Once again, there's some discussion above as to why this is the case. If there's nothing to add to these unit lists, then we're ready to move on to the next stage, whatever that might be (mercenaries?).

The current version of unit availability is as follows:

- Infantry

Dornish Guards (Plate & Mail, Spear, Shield) (Rare) (Average) [Not available in Desert regions]

Medium Spear (Mail, Spear, Shield) (Common) (Average) [Not available in Desert regions]

Medium Sword (Mail, Sword, Shield) (Uncommon) (Average) [Not available in Desert regions]

Light Spear (Leather, Spear, Shield) (Prevalent) (Large)

Light Spear - Desert - (Leather, Spear, Shield) (Prevalent) (Large) [bonus to fighting in desert terrain]

Smallfolk Spear (Padded, Spear, Shield) (Common) (Large)

- Cavalry

Medium Lance (Mail, Lance, Shield) (Common) (Small) [Not available in Desert regions]

Medium Sword (Mail, Sword, Shield) (Uncommon) (Small) [Not available in Desert regions]

Light Lance (Leather, Lance, Shield) (Common) (Average)

Light Sword (Leather, Sword, Shield) (Uncommon) (Average)

Light Spear - Desert - (Leather, Spear, Shield) (Common) (Average) [bonus to fighting in desert terrain]

Smallfolk Spear (Padded, Spear, Shield) (Common) (Average)

- Missile

Archers (Leather, Bow) (Common) (Average)

Medium Mounted Archers (Mail, Spear, Bow) (Rare) (Average) [Not available in Desert regions]

Light Mounted Archers (Leather, Bow) (Common) (Average)

Javelins (Leather, Spear, Javelin, Shield) (Prevalent) (Large)

Mounted Javelins (Leather, Spear, Javelin, Shield) (Prevalent) (Large)

Mounted Javelins - Desert - (Leather, Spear, Javelin, Shield) (Prevalent) (Large) [bonus to fighting in desert terrain]

Smallfolk Javelins (Padded, Spear, Javelin) (Prevalent) (Large)

- Generals

Cav Type (Plate and Mail, Spear, Shield)

- Siege

Standard types available

- Naval

Dhow

Longship

Galleas

Galley (Expensive)

War-Galley (Really Expensive)

Dromond (Ruinously Expensive)

- Special

?

[Merentha]

MY, to add to your Dornish list, I feel that each branch of the Dornish military should get at least one unit only recruitable in desert regions, suitable for battlefield skirmishers. A hashashin analogue, for instance, would apply to the archers, infantry, or both. Likewise, there should be Dornish units who, from having spent their whole life in the desert, should be more adept at fighting in the sands then their stony brethren. As of now, your unit roster only serves to make the sand provinces much less militarily valuable, which is not, I believe, a good option. The difference between sandy and stony armies should be one of choice, not the fact that stony armies are now undoubtedly the best option for the Dornish.

Again, they need desert-specific units.

[Maester Yobjascz]

Merentha -

Not having played the Muslim nations (yet) in M2:TW, your suggestion of 'hashashin' units is somewhat lost on me... could you be more descriptive?

That said, and I'm playing Devil's Advocate here a bit, can you explain *why* the Dornish should have these additional units?

It's true that the current layout makes the desert regions incapable of producing mailed units... but I'm not certain that this, alone, is a sufficient reason to give the Dornish unique units. I *can* see giving units raised in desert provinces a bonus to combat in desert terrain, but I hesitate to give the Dornish unique units without some reference in the books. If this makes the Dornish weak militarily, well, then you've got to be more like Doran in the game... whereas following in Obara Sand's footsteps will lead to defeat.

That said, I can't see a situation where this sort of bonus would be particularly useful. The only desert terrain that I'm aware of is in Dorne, and Dorne's borders are all mountainous. In order for Dorne to be fighting in the desert, they've already lost most of their lands...

ETA - I've modified the Dornish list to include a bonus to fighting in desert terrain for units recruited in desert provinces.

[Merentha]

With mail being prohibitively hot, it stands to reason that the sandy Dornish would adapt their tactics and training for fighting in the desert. This should be reflected in the game.

That said, I can't see a situation where this sort of bonus would be particularly useful. The only desert terrain that I'm aware of is in Dorne, and Dorne's borders are all mountainous. In order for Dorne to be fighting in the desert, they've already lost most of their lands...

[Maester Yobjascz]

Merentha -

This is very true... but is this more a factor of the Tyrell armored units being hammered by the desert heat? I thought we were considering options that would yield significant penalties to armored units in the desert. In which case simply having large numbers of *lightly armored* units could shift the tide, even without desert combat bonuses.

The option seems to be: leave the Tyrell units normal, and give the Dornish additional bonuses to try and counter... or, give all armored units (this will affect the Tyrells heavily) significant penalties in the heat of the Dornish desert (exhaust *very* rapidly, penalties to attack & skill-based defending), while giving few Dornish units actual bonuses. So long as they're not penalized, they should run wild.

Additionally, don't forget the role of leaders here. I'd imagine that most Dornish generals would be adept night-fighters, as night-fighting would avoid most of the penalties to heat (though I don't know if that's moddable)... though when they fight armored troops in the desert, they might prefer to fight during the heat of day...

[Merentha]

I like the concept of the "night-fighting" Dornish generals. A very helpful tactic, it could well encourage hit-and-run tactics on enemy armies. If we give several Dornish generals the "night-fighter" trait, we could make it so that the Dornish must be in control of the situation if they want to win. i.e, fighting on the time and terrain of their choosing.

[aeoleron9]

In light of Marcus' post, I'll pitch some in:

Rebels: I think this is easier implemented than the original; we don't have many special indigenous units so we can just draw from the unit pool of the faction in the area. Rebels on Pyke will likely come from the Ironborn rooster, Moat Cailin and Greywater Watch will spawn rebellious crannogmen, and Andals who try to take Dorne will of course get fiery dornishmen. I'm not sure if there's a difference between bandits and rebels though...

Mercenary: Most'll get freeriders and sellswords, not very different from the basic combat units but probably poor morale, good stats and high cost/upkeep. They're supposed to be auxiliary. The special units in each area could be applied, but some should be left out like the red and gold cloaks.

If we want some flavor somebody before suggested we give Dragonstone, Dorne and probably the bigger harbors a wider variety, seeing as lotsa eastern mercs are running around these places. Unsullied, Lyseni and Myrish pirates, Norvoshi axes, ordinary Tyroshi mercs, summer islanders, various bands and companies...even Ibbenese, if you guys cared for all the trouble. (info taken from here) Vargo Hoat and Salladhar Saan have room for discussion though, should they be generals already or only retinues(again, limit to certain areas) that are acquired when recruiting their units?

[aeoleron9]

On to the units:

Iron islands

- Infantry

Heavy (Plate and Mail, sword, shield) (Rare) (Small)-dismounted chivalric knights

Medium Sword (Mail, sword, shield) (Uncommon) (Average)-dismounted feudal knights

Medium Axe (Mail, axe, shield) (Common) (Average)-norse axemen

Light Axe (Leather, axe, shield) (Common) (Large)-dismounted huscarls

Light Spear (Leather, spear, shield) (Common) (Large)-sergeant spearmen

Smallfolk Axe (Padded, axe) (Uncommon) (Average)-viking raiders

Smallfolk Spear (Padded, spear) (Uncommon) (Average)-spear militia

Thralls (Tunic, spear) (Common) (Small)-peasant

- Missile

Skirmisher (Mail, axe, javelin, buckler) (Prevalent) (Large)?

Smallfolk Skirmisher (Padded, axe, javelin, buckler) (Prevalent) (Small)?

Archer (Leather, short bow) (Rare) (Small)norse archers

- Cavalry

Medium (Mail, axe, shield) (Very Rare) (Very Small)huscarl

Light (Leather, axe, shield) (Rare) (Small)scout

- Special

Drowned Men (Robe, club) (Uncommon) (Small)religious fanatic

Reavers (Mail, axe, shield) (Common) (Small) [bonus vs. militia]viking raiders

[Maester Yobjascz]

Well, my first thought is that we're not required to only have one unit option per faction... if there's only one option for light sword infantry, then that's what everyone will use... and they'll just be reskinned for the different factions.

That said, we've got to look at the main groupings: the Andals, the Firstmen, and the Dornish. The Ironborn have many similarities to the Firstmen in terms of appearance/clothing/etc, so I'm grouping them there. In theory, each of these three would have different units... however, heavy cavalry is going to look like heavy cavalry, regardless of whether the men inside are Andal or First Men. It's *possible* that the Dornish heavy cav would appear more akin to the Byzantine/Eastern cav, but I doubt it... I'd think their heavy armored units would be more influenced by the proximity of the stony Dornish to the Andal kingdoms... this would be a good one for Ran, Wert, or one of the other elders to answer.

In general, medium units are armored in mail... so mailed knights seem a natural for our medium cavalry. The next level up is heavy, armored in plate and mail... so perhaps feudal knights would be a good match. This leaves the final x-heavy cavalry in full plate, and I'd look at the top tier units, either chivalric knights or a Templar/Hospitaller Knight unit. On the other end, we go to light cavalry, in leather armors... I'd look at the Danish Scout units, or the Scottish Border Horse. For the militia, I'd look at the Militia Cav units...

From here, we might create a couple of variants... for the Ironborn Cav, we might opt for huscarls. For Dornish light cav, we might opt for Jinete cav. It does seem, for the most part, that the M2TW cav units blur the distinction between lance/sword units... so merging the two makes sense.

For infantry, same process. Sicilian Sword-Buckler Men have the same armor rating on FAUST (minus the shield/skill level) as Mailed Knights, which suggests they're also mailed armor... (though we might have to tone down their skill rating a wee bit if possible). Norse Swordsmen would be another similar option. Dismounted Feudal Knights for Heavy Infantry, and Dismounted Chivalric Knights for X-Heavy Infantry round out the upper tiers. For Light Infantry, perhaps Highlanders or Viking Raiders... or co-opt an Italian Militia unit. For spearmen, it's an easier transition... Armored Sergeant for medium, Italian Spear Militia for Light spears, and Spear Militia for smallfolk spears.

Once again, there's some options for variation with the Dornish and Ironborn.

[Maester Yobjascz]

There are some indigenous rebels... like the Mountain Clans in the Vale.

That said, my impression on mercenaries is that they should be *plentiful* and *cheap*. Remember, we're not just talking about sellsword companies like the Brave Companions. A good chunk of the various armies we see in the novels are comprised of freeriders and sellswords. In AFfC, Kevan Lannister remarks that he's got 200 sworn swords of his own, and enough gold to bring many more. Bronn was one of these himself... a mercenary with a sword, joining lords so long as the money lasted.

In game, they should be the light and medium units of that region... I can't see too many nobles being sellswords, so we're not really going to see heavily armored units going mercenary too often... but there should be lots of light and medium troops available. In ports, we might find specialist eastern troops... here we might find Summer Islander archer units, with English-style longbows, or Lyseni or Braavosi mercenaries (perhaps lighter armors, but boost the defensive skill levels), etc. These units *would* be more expensive to recruit and maintain.

[Garth the Gross]

Just curious how you are going to handle Knights as units. My idea would be able to upgrade cavalry at any castle that has a Sept. This is because "knights" are actual titles set apart by the Faith rather than just a standard unit. Without the Faith they're what, heavy cavalry? Especially if I'm playing the religious angle I don't want to have to recruit lots of Knights who revere the Seven just to get some good horse units. They're going to renounce the Faith or be massacred.

* Ser - Title of a warrior who has distinguished himself and been annointed as a knight by the Faith. To become a knight, one must be of the Faith, stand vigil in a sept, and be consecrated with the seven oils.

[Maester Yobjascz]

I think the current approach is to disregard a lot of the religious angle. It might be something that gets worked into later revisions... The fact is that religion had *very* little to do with the War of the 5 Kings. It may increase in importance in later campaigns with the revival of the Faith's military orders.

That said, as Maester Luwin explained, there are plenty of heavy cavalry in the North, despite them not being formal knights. Thus, playing a northern faction will not cost you access to heavy cavalry. Instead, they will not be called 'knights'...

[aeoleron9]

Dorne

- Infantry

Dornish Guards (Plate & Mail, Spear, Shield) (Rare) (Average) [Not available in Desert regions]

-dismounted Sipahis

Medium Spear (Mail, Spear, Shield) (Common) (Average) [Not available in Desert regions]

-dismounted arab cav/armored sergeants

Medium Sword (Mail, Sword, Shield) (Uncommon) (Average) [Not available in Desert regions]

-dismounted christian guard

Light Spear - Desert - (Leather, Spear, Shield) (Prevalent) (Large) [bonus to fighting in desert terrain]

-Berber speamen

Smallfolk Spear (Padded, Spear, Shield) (Common) (Large)

-Dismounted Tuareg

- Cavalry

Medium Lance (Mail, Lance, Shield) (Common) (Small) [Not available in Desert regions]

-christian cavalry

Light Spear - Desert - (Leather, Spear, Shield) (Common) (Average) [bonus to fighting in desert terrain]

-granadine cavalry

Smallfolk Spear (Padded, Spear, Shield) (Common) (Average)

-arab cavalry

- Missile

Archers (Leather, Bow) (Common) (Average)

-desert archers

Medium Mounted Archers (Mail, Spear, Bow) (Rare) (Average) [Not available in Desert regions]

-Sipahis

Light Mounted Archers (Leather, Bow) (Common) (Average)

-mamluk archers

Javelins (Leather, Spear, Javelin, Shield) (Prevalent) (Large)

-armughavars

Mounted Javelins (Leather, Spear, Javelin, Shield) (Prevalent) (Large)

-granadine jinetes

Mounted Javelins - Desert - (Leather, Spear, Javelin, Shield) (Prevalent) (Large) [bonus to fighting in desert terrain]

-desert cavalry

Smallfolk Javelins (Padded, Spear, Javelin) (Prevalent) (Large)

-javelin men

- Generals

Cav Type (Plate and Mail, Spear, Shield) (western)general's bodyguard

[Marcus]

Nice start. Does anyone else have different visualizations? What about mercs? has anything been decided with speciality units? Also, does anyone know of people proficient with Photoshop or 3dxmax? We need a graphics department. Badly.