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Rufats

Westeros MII:TW Mod Units

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This topic will discuss units.

We agreed on this:

We could go through the FAUST list and toss out any units we'll never use, to form a list that all factions will draw from. Then build each faction from here.

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Hmmm... this may take some time. :) I'm going to go through and eliminate those units *not* appropriate. If I get a false positive or negative, chime in.

Units to *exclude*:

Arquebusiers

Aventurier (France) (? - I'm not familiar with this unit)

Handgunners

Zweihanders (I'm not aware of greatswords being available to units in general... though some generals do wield them)

Reiters (?)

Forlorn Hope* (HRE) (?)

Musketeers

Gendarmes (?)

Tercio Pikemen (Spain) (?)

Almughavars (?)

Stradiots* (Venice) (?)

Condottieri* (Sicily) (?)

Galloglaich* (Scotland) (?)

Obudshaer* (Denmark) (?)

Portu. Arquebusiers* (Portugal)

Aventuros* (Portugal) (?)

Conquistadores

Polish Shooters* (Poland) (?)

Hussars

Royal Banderium* (Hungary) (?)

Druzhina* (Russia) (?)

Cossack Musketeers* (Russia)

Sudanese Gunners

Camel Gunners* (Moors)

... TBC

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Ok.

Aventurier - heavy missile(crossbow)/melee unit.

Forlorn Hope - two handed sword elite unit.

Gendarmes - professional heavy cavalry (not knights).

Tercio Pikemen - Spanish elite pikemen, nothing more, nothing less.

Almughavars - elite missile(javelin)/melee unit.

Stradiots - quick shock cavalry.

Condottieri - (italian: mercenaries), good mercenary cavalry.

Galloglaich - (Scottish, Irish) two handed axe shock unit.

Obudshaer - armoured halberd-type weapon heavy infantry.

Aventuros - elite pikemen.

Conquistadores - well, mounted - lance/sword, dismounted - sword. Very good unit.

Hussars - good light lance/sword cavalry.

Royal Banderium - heavy (plate armour) cavalry.

Polish Shooters - light crossbow cavalry.

Druzhina - mail armour, axe cavalry.

Btw, mercenary units (like mercenary frankish knights or swiss pikemen) are not in the FAUST. Catapult and the rest of artillery as well.

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Well, what's the general tech level that we're looking at for Westeros? Are we going to have entire units made up of knights in full gothic plate? Most of what I recall is people in plate and mail... perhaps a few generals (Tywin, well... really only Tywin) have a full plate setup. If that's the case, we might need to clip the later game units as well. Also, with the *significantly* shorter time horizon, we don't have to worry about unit development so much... there's not much time to invent new units... thought I suppose 'older' units should just become a cheaper/poor-man's alternative.

Similarly, I don't think that there's *that* much range or variation in units... we've got wealthy knights (best armor & weapons available), poorer knights (decent armor and weapons), hedge knights and other mercenaries (piecemeal armor and weapons)... and that basically accounts for the cavalry. It's basically a heavy cavalry, a medium cavalry, and a light cavalry... where light and medium may have varying levels of morale.

For infantry, there's the more or less professional men-at-arms, with decent armors and weapons. When there's been a long time to raise the host, there may be trained spearmen units... but the bulk of the infantry is smallfolk levies. Some may be organized enough to have armors and weapons, but if it's at all hasty, then it's whatever crude weapons they can manufacture.

In general, I think that the ASOIAF armies tend to be less easily broken down into particular 'units'. Many, such as the infantry, are likely an amalgamation of several types. I don't know if that's possible to replicate in this, but it's worth a thought.

Here's my thought:

As we did with the geographic settings, break Westeros down into similar regions: the North, the Iron Islands, the Westerlands/Stormlands/Vale/Riverlands/Reach/Crownlands, and Dorne. Figure out what units each of these groups should have. Then we pick from the FAUST unit and assign to match. Finally, add any special units to the individual factions. I think that may be a bit faster, given how many units there are.

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Just to summarize my point a bit: There are too many units to choose from, with too much variation to make sense in Westeros. I think it's a more streamlined approach, especially for those of us not as familiar with the specific terminology/names used in-game, to break down the major unit types of each region.

Once that's done, we can go region by region, and break down those unit types into a number of sub-types as appropriate, using the text as a basis. Then, with FAUST as a guideline, we can pick and assign game units to the factions. From there, we can supplement the major types with special faction-specific units.

I think that this works more efficiently. Also, it should keep us closer to the books, as we define what we're looking for first. The previous plan was a good idea in concept... but the more I tried to implement it, the less I found it practical.

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Well, the thing is, it doesn't really matter what units go to who, because my understanding of it from following other mods is that it is relatively simple to change the statistics of a unit, and even add others as is needed.

The units from the original game could, of course, be used as they are in this mod, but if they are going to be re-skinned anyway it seems to me that it would not take too much more time to modify them, statistics wise, as was needed.

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Well, if that's the case, trying to isolate which units we use from FAUST is fairly inappropriate at this stage. We're better off determining what should be in ASOIAF armies, rather than what M2TW units could fit.

This approach also has a few other advantages: first, we can balance the strengths of the available units a little better... especially since a number of regions will have the same basic corps. Second, I think the bulk of the armies will be more smallfolk levies... which will make battles a bit faster and we'll end with more routs, which seems to be more in keeping with the novels.

That said, let's start with the Iron Isles... smallest faction, in many ways, with the fewest discrete units available.

- Infantry

Heavy (plate and mail, sword/axe, shield) (Rare)

Medium (Mail, sword/axe, shield) (Common)

Light (Leather, axe/sword, shield) (Common)

- Missile

Skirmisher (Mail, axe/throwing axe/spear/javelin, buckler) (Common)

Archer (Leather, short bow) (Rare)

- Cavalry

Medium (Mail, sword/axe, shield) (Very Rare)

Light (Leather, sword/axe, shield) (Rare)

- Siege

Ballistae (Rare)

Catapult (Very Rare)

- Naval

I'm not sure how these work... but they should be plentiful and strong

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I think this would be a good approach, making the game fit the world rather than the world fit the game as it is. However, I think one of the ideas was to try and get the map completely worked out first, and not get sidetracked by other things, like the unit roster. It would be nice though to hear what is going on and find out ways the rest of us can help, it would be horrible to let this die now!

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Borrowing from the Vikings from MTW:VI, i think the Iron Islanders' leader units should be very heavy infantry, rather than the traditional Bodyguard unit. Light infantry armed with lethal weaponry (and a healthy charge bonus) should also be critical to their success, filling in for cavalry. If possible, said infantry should be able to run very rapidly, essentially limiting the Ironborn to a solely infantry army.

In my opinion, medium cavalry should be out of the question, leaving them only with outriders and scouts for their armies.

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They look pretty good to me, but it has been a while since I have read the books, so I couldn't really give you many specifics.

However, I can speak to the naval side of things a bit. In the vanilla game, players can construct Ports, which permit the building of the lowest level of ship, and also create seagoing trade routes, and then these ports can be upgraded into Shipwrights and so forth which permit the building of more advanced ships(and add more sea based trade). The game as is comes with, if I remember correctly, 4 levels of ships, but various factions have different types of ships, which also should not be too hard to modify.

Thus, the Iron Fleet could be represented by more ships than any other faction starts out with, with a commander of higher ability than anybody else, or they could have more advanced ships than anyone else could create right at the beginning. It would also be possible for the Iron Isles to produce ships that are just plain better than the ships of other factions if that was what was decided on.

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The only scenes that I recall that have Ironborn in them are: Theon's chapters in ACoK during his raids on the Stony Shore... and to a lesser extent once he arrives at Winterfell... and the Asha chapters in AFfC, though those show more of what the Ironborn captains and major men-at-arms are like. The Victarion chapters during his time assaulting the shield islands gives a few more clues... anyone have the books handy to add specifics?

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About ships: the closest ones to Ironborns' are danish Longboat and Dragon boat (I guess this is the way the call Drakkar) and russian Ladya. Do the other houses have just galleys and war galleys or ships like cogs as well?

anyone have the books handy to add specifics?

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The main ships of combat are galleys and war galleys. I don't know what the M2TW equivalent is... but I believe that, historically, most of the ships operating in the Med were of this type... effectively *really* big triremes with a square sail and several banks of oars... big ram prow mounted on the front.

The Ironborn had longships for raiding, not so much for sea-battle. They were shallower draft, to allow travelling upriver. Longboats and Drakkar should fit, though I don't know the Ladya.

The Eastern Continent has apparently developed more modern ships, like Cogs. We see Pentoshi merchants (like Groleo, one of Illyrio's captains) captaining a cog laden with goods. But I don't recall any Westerosi cogs or caravels.

... of course, regardless of how modern the ship design, still no cannon. ;)

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1. MIITW does have galleys and war galleys, requires port and shipwright, respectively (Southern Europe: Venice, Sicily, etc).

2. Ladya is, pretty much, the Longboat.

3. For Western European factions, Cog is the first ship you can built (requires ports). So, no cannons.

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Baghlah, Heavy Warship, egypt, turks, moors

Caravel, Heavy Warship, portugal, spain

Carrack, heavy warship, northern_european, venice, sicily, milan, papal_states, eastern_european, greek

Cog, light warship, england, hre, france, scotland, hungary, poland, portugal, spain

Dhow, light warship, middle_eastern

Dragon Boat, light warship, denmark

Dromon, light warship, greek

Fire Ship, light warship, greek

Galleass, light warship, venice

Galley, light warship, milan, papal_states, sicily, venice

Grande Carrack, heavy warship, portugal, spain

Gun Holk, light warship, northern_european, poland, russia

Holk, light warship, poland, russia, england, france, hre, scotland

Lad'Ya, light warship, russia

Lanternas, light warship, hungary, greek, egypt, moors, turks, milan, papal_states, portugal, sicily, spain

Longboat, light warship, denmark

War Galley, light warship, hungary, egypt, moors, turks, southern_european

Pirate Ship, light warship, slave

Mercenary Galley, light warship, slave

Mercenary Cog, Light Warship, slave

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