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Rufats

Westeros MII:TW Mod Units

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Somehow you lost some infantry in your final review, since you had placed multiple versions of sandy/stony troops in your original list.

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As to your questions, we can't add a second level of banners. As for location...in theory, it's possible. However we'd have to reskin each unit for every house. So instead of 15 units per faction, we'd be skinning 150. The plan now is to add certain sigils of houses on certain units. Ie crannogmen will have Reed symbols, swordsmen in general will have Karstark, Bolton, Stark, etc. What you're suggesting is basically a faction for every settlement on the map. Having a 'Stark' faction that has all 15 units with Reed, Bolton, Karstark, Mormont, Glover, Manderly etc skins is a lot of work.

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If there are comments or suggestions for additional units for the Ironborn or the Dornish, chip in.

Meanwhile:

-Infantry

Heavy Infantry (Plate and Mail, Sword, Shield) (Rare) (Average)

Medium Sword (Mail, Sword, Shield) (Common) (Average)

Medium Spear (Mail, Spear) (Common) (Average)

Light Sword (Leather, Sword, Shield) (Common) (Large)

Light Spear (Leather, Spear, Shield) (Prevalent) (Large)

Smallfolk Spear (Padded, Spear) (Prevalent) (Large)

Smallfolk Axe (Padded, Axe) (Prevalent) (Large)

- Cavalry

Heavy Sword (Plate and Mail, Sword, Shield) (Uncommon) (Average)

Heavy Lance (Plate and Mail, Lance, Shield) (Rare) (Average)

Medium Sword (Mail, Sword, Shield) (Common) (Average)

Medium Lance (Mail, Lance, Shield) (Uncommon) (Average)

Light Sword (Leather, Sword, Shield) (Prevalent) (Large)

Light Lance (Leather, Lance, Shield) (Uncommon) (Average)

Smallfolk Spear (Padded, Spear, Shield) (Common) (Large)

- Missile

Archer (Leather, Bow, Dagger) (Common) (Large)

Smallfolk Archer (Padded, Bow, Dagger) (Prevalent) (Large)

Skirmisher (Leather, Javelin, Sword, Shield) (Common) (Average)

?Longbowmen? (Leather, Longbow, Dagger) (Rare) (Small)

- Generals

Standard Cavalry

- Siege

Standard Types

- Naval

Dhow (Prevalent) [reduced stats for fishing boats/transport]

Longship (Common)

Galleas (Common)

Galley (Uncommon)

War Galley (Rare)

Dromond (Very Rare)

- Special

Crannogmen (Spear/Trident, Shortbow, Leather, Shield) (Rare) (Small) [Combat/Movement bonuses in Swamp/Bog, Devastating Ranged Attack (Poisons)]

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Merentha - The drop in Dornish infantry is from cutting out the Smallfolk Sword unit... I agree with you that there shouldn't be Smallfolk armed with swords, as swords are a castle/noble weapon.

Marcus - Well, isn't that only the case if we do a complete re-skin of each unit? Karstarks, Flints, and other northmen could all wear the same tabard... the only difference *might* be a second banner... or perhaps just a change in the unit name. Or am I underestimating the work necessary to have region-specific names and tracing for units?

A complete re-skin with new house-specific clothing would be really cool, but a ridiculous amount of work... a guy can dream though, right? :)

Generally - Should the Dornish have a special unit: Longbow? We know that Dornish yew is prized for bows... perhaps they have a special unit of them?

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Merentha - The drop in Dornish infantry is from cutting out the Smallfolk Sword unit... I agree with you that there shouldn't be Smallfolk armed with swords, as swords are a castle/noble weapon.

Generally - Should the Dornish have a special unit: Longbow? We know that Dornish yew is prized for bows... perhaps they have a special unit of them?

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I don't understand what you mean by "tracing". As for region-specific names...again, do-able, but lots of work. Hidden resources would have to be made for every region, then we'd have to code each unit X number of times for X number of settlements. So, for example, say this is an entry for a unit of spearmen

recuit pool "Karstark Spearmen" requires faction (stark) and hidden_resource karhold

recuit pool "Manderly Spearmen" requires faction (stark) and hidden_resource whiteharbour

recuit pool "Hornwood Spearmen" requires faction (stark) and hidden_resource hornwood

recuit pool "Bolton Spearmen" requires faction (stark) and hidden_resource dreadfort

recuit pool "Tallhart Spearmen" requires faction (stark) and hidden_resource torhen

etc. Plus we'd have to make around 130 hidden resources, and do the coding for every unit several times over. Do-able...but probably not feasible for a first release.

As far as the skins go...remember, we're not trying to re-clone the armies. If we did a skin for each location, every man in that unit would have the same tabard, shield, etc. This way, we can add a few different tabard's, some different shields, etc. Is it likely banner lords kept their troops seperated by the location they were drew from? If not, the way they are now is fine..

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Marcus - That's kind of what I figured... I'd *love* to eventually have it designed so that if the Bolton lord is bribed (or otherwise convinced) to go neutral, all troops raised at the Dreadfort would go neutral (or enemy) as well. But this would take the 'tracing' I was talking about, which is too much effort for the first release.

Baz & Merentha -

I agree that we don't want to be generating too many unit types unless necessary. It just doesn't fit in with the time scale that we're dealing with. If you want elite Dornish spearmen, recruit some spearmen, upgrade their weapons and armor at blacksmiths and such, and get them some experience against rebel units.... that should do.

As to the various infantry units Merentha described, what's the difference between men-at-arms and sergeants? Is it that men-at-arms have swords and sergeants spears? ... I'm not that familiar with the game units, so I tend to stick with unwieldy labels like medium swords... more descriptive.

Merentha's breakdown yields one heavy infantry, two types of medium infantry (based on the above, I'm assuming it's a medium sword and a medium spear; both in Stony territories due to the presence of mail armor), four types of light infantry in leathers (Stony Spear, Stony Sword, and two variants of Sandy Spear), and two militia (Sandy Spear, Stony Spear).

Now, the main question to ask is "What is the difference between Stony and Sandy Dornish in the game?" If the *only* difference is recruiting limits (i.e., don't recruit mailed units in the desert, and the stats of units are otherwise similar), then there's no reason to distinguish the smallfolk militia units. Nor is there a reason to distinguish the light spear infantry.

Under this assumption, you'd have:

Heavy Infantry (Stony only)

Medium Swords (Stony only)

Medium Spears (Stony only)

Light Swords (Stony only)

Light Spears (Both)

Smallfolk Spears (Both)

However, if we want to go with the 'Dune' model of Dorne ("The desert trains the faithful"), then we'd have to distinguish Stony and Sandy for *all* units, and give the Sandy Dornish units combat bonuses. *However* - 'Dune' isn't ASOIAF, and I recall *nothing* in the novels that suggests that the Sandy Dornish are more capable in combat than the Stony Dornish. Not to mention that we're ignoring the Salty Dornish altogether.

Personally, I think the former approach is simpler and more accurate; Dornish are Dornish, sandy or otherwise. One shouldn't be better at fighting than another. If anything, we could likely drop the distinctions between Sandy and Stony altogether, and perhaps find a way to make steel-armored units more expensive in desert regions; it's harder to train troops when it's too hot to wear the equipment.

I'd prefer to rely on experience gains to distinguish elite troops from regulars... rather than having units that are 'trained' to be more elite. Heavy Cav is going to have higher combat values from the start than Light Cav... mostly due to heavier equipment... I don't know that the training is significantly different.

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While I'm on a roll here:

-Infantry

Heavy Infantry (Plate and Mail, Sword, Shield) (Very Rare) (Small)

Medium Sword (Mail, Sword, Shield) (Uncommon) (Small)

Medium Spear (Mail, Spear) (Uncommon) (Small)

Light Sword (Leather, Sword, Shield) (Prevalent) (Average)

Light Spear (Leather, Spear, Shield) (Uncommon) (Small)

Smallfolk Spear (Padded, Spear) (Rare) (Small)

Smallfolk Axe (Padded, Axe) (Uncommon) (Average)

- Cavalry

Heavy Sword (Plate and Mail, Sword, Shield) (Very Rare) (Small)

Medium Sword (Mail, Sword, Shield) (Common) (Average)

Medium Lance (Mail, Lance, Shield) (Rare) (Average)

Light Sword (Leather, Sword, Shield) (Prevalent) (Large)

Light Lance (Leather, Lance, Shield) (Uncommon) (Average)

Smallfolk Spear (Padded, Spear, Shield) (Very Rare) (Small)

- Missile

Archer (Leather, Bow, Dagger) (Uncommon) (Small)

Smallfolk Archer (Padded, Bow, Dagger) (Uncommon) (Small)

Smalfolk Crossbow (Padded, Crossbow, Dagger) (Rare) (Small)

Skirmisher (Leather, Bow, Sword, Shield) (Prevalent) (Large)

Longbow Skirmisher (Leather, Longbow, Sword) (Common) (Average)

- Generals

Medium Cavalry

- Siege

Standard Types

- Naval

Dhow (Uncommon) [reduced stats for fishing boats/transport]

Longship (Common)

Galleas (Uncommon)

Galley (Rare)

War Galley (Very Rare)

Dromond (Very Rare)

- Special

?

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Continuing On:

-Infantry

Thenn Sword (Leather, Sword, Shield) (Common) (Average)

Smallfolk Sword (Padded, Sword) (Uncommon) (Average)

Smallfolk Spear (Padded, Spear) (Prevalent) (Large)

Smallfolk Axe (Padded, Axe) (Prevalent) (Large)

- Cavalry

Medium Sword (Mail, Sword, Shield) (Rare) (Small)

Light Sword (Leather, Sword, Shield) (Uncommon) (Small)

Smallfolk Spear (Padded, Spear, Shield) (Very Rare) (Small)

- Missile

Archer (Leather, Bow, Dagger) (Uncommon) (Average)

Smallfolk Archer (Padded, Bow, Dagger) (Prevalent) (Average)

Skirmisher (Leather, Bow, Sword, Shield) (Prevalent) (Large)

Smallfolk Skirmisher (Padded, Bow, Spear) (Prevalent) (Large)

- Generals

Medium Cavalry

- Siege

Rams, Ladders

- Naval

Dhow (Prevalent) [reduced stats for fishing boats/transport]

Longship (Uncommon)

- Special

Giant (Cloth, Club) (Uncommon) (Small) [bonus HP, High Stats]

Chariot (Leather, Spear, Shield) (Uncommon) (Small)

Mammoth Cavalry (Cloth, Club) (Uncommon) (Small) [bonus HP, High Stats]

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I'm afraid at this point we can't do giants, as we dont have a plugin to change unit models. Since there isnt' a giant unit in M2 already...we cant have one. We may be able to use elephants for mammoths, however. And I don't know...is there a chariot unit anywhere? Perhaps we could give the wildlings a berserker unit instead of the giants? Small in number but powerful charge and shock, give them a bit of a higher-end troop to replace the giants.

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I thought I recalled the Egyptians having chariot units, but a quick glance at FAUST says otherwise... so no chariot units for the Wildlings... perhaps just some non-smallfolk spear cavalry.

I think that the Elephant models would work for the Mammoths... and as for Giants, I figured you just use a normal model, make them really hairy; maybe give them the zwiehander animations (but change the 2-handed sword to a club?)... Boost their HP and offensive combat stats *way* up, and just call them giants. They'll look normal (aside from being nekkid and furry), but oh well. In the LotR mod for Mount & Blade, the trolls were normal sized figures with outsized stats too... just different colors (greenish-blue). It wasn't perfect, but it worked.

ETA: If we can tweak the AI any, it might make sense to have the Wildlings form a large number of smaller armies, all traveling near each other... this way, they can support the others in combat, but if one commander goes rebel, they don't suddenly lose half their strength... They're wildlings; not all the troops in an 'army' will follow a rebelling commander.

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Perhpas that will work. There are some units ingame not in FAUST, perhaps there is a merc/rebel chariot unit, I'll nose around later. We can't change weapons, that's part of modelling. We can paint a greatsword to look like a club....but it's still a greatsword. But great job so far.

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About the Sandy vs Stony thing, I don't know if anybody mentioned this yet, but in the Vanilla game certain units have bonuses in certain types of terrain, for instance some of the Moorish/North African troops have a bonus when fighting in deserts, some of the more northern troops have a bonus fighting in woods, etc. These appear to be combat bonuses rather than morale bonuses (boni?) and include the following terrain types: scrub, sand, forest, snow. They may or may not be able to be modified, I'm not sure.

Also, there appears to be an attribute one can modify so that certain units (i.e. ones with more armour) take more fatigue when fighting in hot climates.

Either of these options might provide some differentiation between the Dornish and others, and between Stony and Sandy Dornish, if desired.

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Baz, Maester, you're right, the infantry need to be simplified.

How about:

Heavy

-Dornish Guard

Medium

- Mailed swordsmen

- Mailed spearmen

Light

- Desert swordsmen

- Desert spearmen

and the smallfolk.

Between the combat bonuses the light infantry would recieve in the desert, and the combat penalties the medium and heavy infantry would get, under the proper conditions the light infantry should destroy the medium and inflict decent casualties on the heavy. Even outside the desert, the light inf. could still be useful as a fast, responsive infantry, but the mailed men would be needed to counter the heavier Andal infantry and cavalry.

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Can we keep this going? Any comments on the North, Night's Watch or Wildlings? If not, let's keep rolling. 5/12 done in the second stage.

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I've been a bit busy at work... I'll get started on the Andals when I find some time... then break them down into the specific factions afterwards.

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Heavy lancers should be a very rare unit only recruitable from White Harbor. The non-knight mounted warriors should be represented by the heavy mounted swords. Longbowmen, too, should be out, though a 'hunter' unit that fulfills the role of skirmisher makes a lot of sense.

Both variants of the heavy cavalry should be rarer than for any other faction, so the north will be fielding more heavy infantry and medium cavalry than the Andals. Remember, the north is poor, so plate should be very rare, if not impossible, on anything but the Generals.

I can't recall, does Robb wear a hauberk or plate? I know there are a few mentions of plate, like on Ramsey and presumably Rodrick Cassel, but it would be telling if he wore mail.

An addition: special unit Umber axes/swords. Not sure yet, but these should be similar to either the Forlorn Hope of the germans or Highland nobles. For a general look for all northern units, inspiration from the scots should be used.

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Merentha -

I agree that Heavy Lancers should be rare for the North... but they should exist. From the novels, we know that some of the northerners do wear plate and mail. Moreover, we know that they do have men trained at the lance. Jory Cassel, for example, jousts in the Hand's Tourney. That said, remember that we're looking to what the North *could* recruit... not what they historically did. They clearly could recruit heavy lancers, though what we see (infrequency of heavier armors, paucity of lancers) suggests that these units should be rare... and so they are on my list. Lancers are more uncommon than their sword-wielding counterparts, and heavily armored cav are more uncommon than their more lightly armored brethren. So, for the most part, I don't think that my list for the Northmen departs from what you're recommending. As to limiting heavy cav to White Harbor, I'm not sure I understand the point of that. Perhaps White Harbor will be the only location at games' start able to recruit such units (or at least is closest to being able to), but I don't know why they'd be the only northern territory capable of doing so.

As to longbows, I'm not sure if these are really appropriate to ASOIAF in general... there's some suggestions that the Dornish are good with bows, and that they make them out of prized Dornish Yew, but I don't know that they'd have access to what we'd consider longbow units, in the English tradition. To my recollection, the closest would be to make a few rare units of Summer Islander longbowmen available as mercenaries... from AFfC, we know that the Summer Islanders were equipped with bows that greatly outdistanced those used by the Ironborn... and even those used by the Dornish, according to Sam. Thus, I'd be tempted to pull the longbow archer units across the board.

Finally, with the exception of the Greatjon and his son, the Smalljon, I'm not really sure that the Umbers deserve as much credit as we give them. That said, they're certainly not the heavily armored berserker unit... at most, I could see giving them a bit more morale, or a bit more attacking strength (at the expense of defense), making them similar to the Woodsmen units. Another possibility, as I suggested initially, would be to simply give them an extra hit point to represent their hardiness from living so far north. But there's nothing I've seen to suggest that the men who fight for the Umbers are devastating death-dealing machines of war.

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The Forlorn Hope aren't devastating death-dealing machines of war either. They are simply what you describe, heavy infantry with a better atttack and weaker defense than most HI. Giving units two hitpoints would be obscenely powerful. The berserkers in RTW had units sized 12-16 because they have two hp each. That ability should be reserved for generals, I think.

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