Michelle West dropped by publisher (Daw Books/Penguin Random House)

[Inkdaub]

2 hours ago, Maia said:

I was really put off by the main protagonist's incompetence at her official job and how she generally behaved like a spoiled brat about it, while being coddled and abetted by a host of avuncular/fatherly men, and was waiting for a wake-up moment until I finally realized that it wasn't going to happen because

 

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Severn needed to continually prove his relevance as a love interest by "taking care" of Kaylin and propping her, so she _had_ to remain agressively ignorant, directionally challenged, have abysmal work ethic while constantly prattling about how important being a Hawk was to her, etc. and coast on her "Chosen" status and good heart. The love triangle with that quintessential alphahole Nightshade doesn't help either, nor do the hints of additional multi-angles incoming. She is also not quite a queen bee, but almost - all of her most important relationships are clearly with men, who almost universally dote on her. So, this is a combination of tropes and traits that I have come to detest.  

Oh, and I may have been irrationally irritated by how Kaylin's name gets used like a million times in 3 short books. She can't make a few steps without somebody saying "Kaylin..." for one reason or another.

I am confident the West books are different in these ways.  There is a Nightshade-ish 'alphahole' as you say...there are a few alphaholes in there...but none of them relate as they do in the Elantra books.  The character who I think is like Kaylin (like Kaylin in her being central to the story and some other characteristics but not similar to Kaylin in behavior) did not start the story as a main character but became one later, so did not start the story as Kaylin started hers.  Also, the Essalieyan books have a much larger cast and do not focus exclusively on one person.

There is also a fairly pivotal 'avuncular/fatherly' man.  There are a few, but one in particular is very important.  He is referenced often but does not relate in the way you describe or if he does it is much less so than characters in the Cast series.

The repeating names thing I didn't notice and that is a big pet peeve of mine so I think I would have.  I am biased in favor of the Essalieyan books and might skip over things like that.  Maybe.

I don't know.  I think the things you mention are still present but in very different or lessened forms as to be less bothersome.  The stories are significantly different in most ways.

 

[Maia]

22 hours ago, Inkdaub said:

The repeating names thing I didn't notice and that is a big pet peeve of mine so I think I would have.  I am biased in favor of the Essalieyan books and might skip over things like that.  Maybe.

Trust me, it is not something that I normally keep track of, but it just jumped out at me. And it is not names in general, it is just the protagonist. The men around her constantly try to yank her back from some impulsive action or express their exasperation  by saying:  "Kaylin..."  I had an impression that the author really loved the sound of the heroine's name and used it as often as humanely possible.

 

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I don't know.  I think the things you mention are still present but in very different or lessened forms as to be less bothersome.  The stories are significantly different in most ways.

I am not against such things in moderation, though I find the lack of secondary female characters, particularly those in mentor/(pseudo)parental and close friend roles for female main characters increasingly grating. Ditto a powerful supernatural race not having any females, so that they can all concentrate on the heroine, etc. Anyway, what you said about the West books sounds promising enough - where should I start? There seem to be quite a lot of them. I do normally prefer to read in internal chronology, unless something big gets spoiled if I do. TIA.

[Inkdaub]

On 8/31/2021 at 2:59 AM, Maia said:

Trust me, it is not something that I normally keep track of, but it just jumped out at me. And it is not names in general, it is just the protagonist. The men around her constantly try to yank her back from some impulsive action or express their exasperation  by saying:  "Kaylin..."  I had an impression that the author really loved the sound of the heroine's name and used it as often as humanely possible.

 

I am not against such things in moderation, though I find the lack of secondary female characters, particularly those in mentor/(pseudo)parental and close friend roles for female main characters increasingly grating. Ditto a powerful supernatural race not having any females, so that they can all concentrate on the heroine, etc. Anyway, what you said about the West books sounds promising enough - where should I start? There seem to be quite a lot of them. I do normally prefer to read in internal chronology, unless something big gets spoiled if I do. TIA.

Haha...I never saw it before, but there IS a powerful supernatural race without/with very few females.  There is a reason behind it, though, and the supernatural race is led by a female of immense import.

Anyway, chronologically as follows...

First three of House War series/Sacred Hunt Duology.  

The Sacred Hunt Duology takes place roughly at the same time as the first three House War books, though over a longer time span.  The climax of Hunter's Death is the same as the climax of House Name but is told from different perspective.  This is not to everyone's liking and is a bit odd.  If you are totally against this idea, skip the Sacred Hunt as the early House War should not be skipped.  Sacred Hunt is worth reading beyond the shared climax of book two, though. 

Sacred Hunt is best read first, I think.

Hunter's Oath

Hunter's Death

Hidden City

City of Night

House Name

 

Sun Sword in it's entirety.

The Broken Crown

The Uncrowned King

The Shining Court

Sea of Sorrows

The Riven Shield

The Sun Sword

 

Remaining five House War.

Skirmish

Battle

Oracle

Firstborn

War

 

Now we wait for End of Days...that Daw renamed Burning Crown...that is once again End of Days.  In it the people from Sacred Hunt will once again join the story. 

One thing to consider, West often knows her endings first and then works to get there.  So, the story can and does grow along the way and it shows.

As an aside, West says that Sheila Gilbert will still be reading/advising as she writes End of Days.  I'm sure at a limited capacity, but still a good thing.

 

 

 

[ants]

I originally read the Sun Sword series first, not knowing of the Hunter duology (and House War wasn't written then).

I'd be tempted to read them in publishing order. The only overlap is the first three books of the House War series, which isn't done as succinctly as the hunter series. If you like her works and get to the end of the Sun Sword series, you will know you'll still enjoy going back over the House War "past history" bit. 

As to differences in the two series, they're very different with the issues you raised. There is almost no romance in the Sun Sword world, there is a large cast of character perspectives, and there are a range of women in different roles. There is one nation which is more progressive by gender than two others, with the woman in those two having differing levels of autonomy and control (e.g. in one woman have very different roles, but still important. For example, two woman are the ambassadors, and woman run the each house. In the other it is a far more arabic/Japanese traditional feel with a lot of what that entails). 

[JoannaL]

On 8/30/2021 at 10:58 AM, Maia said:

I was really put off by the main protagonist's incompetence at her official job and how she generally behaved like a spoiled brat about it, while being coddled and abetted by a host of avuncular/fatherly men, and was waiting for a wake-up moment until I finally realized that it wasn't going to happen because

 

  Reveal hidden contents

Severn needed to continually prove his relevance as a love interest by "taking care" of Kaylin and propping her, so she _had_ to remain agressively ignorant, directionally challenged, have abysmal work ethic while constantly prattling about how important being a Hawk was to her, etc. and coast on her "Chosen" status and good heart. The love triangle with that quintessential alphahole Nightshade doesn't help either, nor do the hints of additional multi-angles incoming. She is also not quite a queen bee, but almost - all of her most important relationships are clearly with men, who almost universally dote on her. So, this is a combination of tropes and traits that I have come to detest.  

Oh, and I may have been irrationally irritated by how Kaylin's name gets used like a million times in 3 short books. She can't make a few steps without somebody saying "Kaylin..." for one reason or another.

I liked the elantran books, and I think Kaylin does a lot of growing up . At the beginning she is very young. I like it if a character is developing over time and is not fully developed at the beginning. so, if that is your main problem you could give it a try again. More problematic IMO is, that at least one half of every book is dedicated to hapless wandering around in living buildings (the concept is great, it is only repeated too often).

[Mark Lawrence]

Very impressive Patreon growth in a short space of time. Probably constitutes more than most traditionally published authors make from their books.

[El Kabong]

The length argument still baffles me somewhat. I mean, Orbit seems to out out a new 1000 page fantasy novel every other week from new authors, but, back to DAW, the new Kristin Britian novel(and yes I know she sells a lot) is HUGE and has a insanely large font. Like, a normal font would cut the book size in half.

[Inkdaub]

I am a West Patron but I don't visit very often.  I don't want to see advance chapters and I don't want too much info on the process until after I read the book.  She does seem to post regularly for those who like the feeling of being along for the ride.  I think she is genuinely trying to provide content beyond the books themselves that is interesting in and of itself. 

[Werthead]

 

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Very impressive Patreon growth in a short space of time. Probably constitutes more than most traditionally published authors make from their books.

 

I think JV Jones was also surprised to find out how effective it was to go to Patreon as a funding resource, and it's even allowed her to do things like buy back the rights to out-of-print books and shop them around or prepare them for self-publishing.

7 hours ago, El Kabong said:

The length argument still baffles me somewhat. I mean, Orbit seems to out out a new 1000 page fantasy novel every other week from new authors, but, back to DAW, the new Kristin Britian novel(and yes I know she sells a lot) is HUGE and has a insanely large font. Like, a normal font would cut the book size in half.

I certainly haven't seen any real mega-long debuts for a while now. I remember Samantha Shannon dropping Priory of the Orange Tree as an 800-pages-in-hardcover standalone and everyone started saying "big books are back!" Even legacy authors known for doorstoppers like Steven Erikson seem to be have been told to keep the lengths down for their more recent books.

[El Kabong]

Maybe its a regional thing, but off the top of my head both Tyler Whitesides and Mathew Ward have had absolutely huge first novels.

[Werthead]

On 11/13/2021 at 7:54 PM, El Kabong said:

Maybe its a regional thing, but off the top of my head both Tyler Whitesides and Mathew Ward have had absolutely huge first novels.

Whitesides' debut novel Janitors was 300 pages, Ward wrote tons of codexes, short stories and a 400-ish page novel in the Warhammer universe before doing his own thing.

Both have recent "big" fantasy novels (~800 pages, so not really big), but both had quite a bit of experience before that.