Watch Watched Watching: Indie Art Cinema Wave #__?

[RumHam]

4 hours ago, Ghostlydragon said:

 

I really hope not. In the books it's clear that force lightning can kill you

I never thought about it, but in the movies that's not clear at all. People get zapped by it for long durations and are fine after. Or sometimes their skin melts a bit but they're otherwise fine. 

[DMC]

1 minute ago, Veltigar said:

I feel like I need to check your definition of stupid.

No, I definitely meant stupid.  GotG is stupid too, I suppose, but the difference is it gets you invested in the characters and even the story.  I mean, it's frankly impressive how efficient Gunn does that in GOTG - the scene where Rocket is like "we're all standing up now, buncha jackasses standing in a circle" is actually incredibly touching.  I never got anything like that from TSS, at all.

[Heartofice]

Like I said, I think a lot of the positive praise for Suicide Squad comes from the reaction to the first movie. This is getting extra points for simply having the balls to go in a new direction and taking itself less seriously.

Honestly I don’t think it goes far enough with the stupidity, and still has far too many of the standard Superhero beats for it to be a classic. I would have loved for it to really embrace the craziness and gone balls to the wall stupid, even if it meant the plot made no sense. Think Crank 2 but with superheroes. 
 

Like most movies it’s taking some risks but is still very safe in its structure 

[Isis]

I mostly enjoyed watching three seasons of Roman Empire on Netflix. The distracting bits where they show the same shot repeatedly (senators walking through the forum or centurions marching through fields) was a bit of a glitch in the matrix (was the budget so low that they had to keep re-using these shots multiple times?). But apart from that it was fairly entertaining so I'd recommend it if you enjoy historical docu-dramas.

We are now onto Rise of Empires: Ottoman (also Netflix) which features amazing headgear and eyebrows so bold that you cannot help but applaud them. This one is narrated by Charles Dance. The pacing (including cliffhangers) is quite well done. I'm enjoying this one so far...

I'm still watching Colony too - this series really went in a direction I wasn't expecting it to - which is a good thing. I hope it has more surprises up its sleeve. I'm on S2 and I see there is a S3 so I can't be the only one who likes it.

 

[Zorral]

For the first time since pandemic, I had a communal watching experience. It was in our Host’s home theater, while there this past week on getaway from home – my first since sometime in 2019. We watched together the music documentary of the Finnish semi-comedy band, Leningrad Cowboys 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leningrad_Cowboys

playing together with the Russian military band the Alexandrov Ensemble, performed in Helsinki, 1993.

Also Questlove’s documentary,  Summer of Soul (theatrical release July 2, 2021)

https://www.npr.org/2021/07/01/1012294452/questloves-summer-of-soul-tells-the-story-of-6-concerts-in-harlem-in-1969

Ya – music films are splendid to watch in company, as we who were together in this home theater for this, have attended together so many music events in the past.
 

[IFR]

@Veltigar

I'm glad you enjoyed The Suicide Squad! I would dispute the review you referenced. The comic book Watchmen is nearly 40 years old, and to me that was not just the introduction of superhero deconstructionism, but it is the best example of it and very thorough, too. You mentioned, for instance, the plot point on foreign policy that is briefly examined in the movie. That was much more deeply explored in Watchmen. Also the silliness of superheroes, etc.

Many superhero movies have gone for deconstructionism since Watchmen. James Gunn himself did Super, which was a deconstruction of superhero movies. 

What do you think on a deeper level TSS had to say that hasn't been said before?

I do agree with you that the homogeneous approach to superhero stories that Marvel has mastered is losing popularity. More inventive, heterogenous approaches will probably see slightly more success. The Joker, TSS, possibly Matt Reeves Batman, all have a somewhat unique identity to each other, which makes them more interesting.

For Marvel I'm interested in seeing the next Spiderman movie, which is bringing all the Spiderman casts together. Other than that it just seems like an indistinguishable mess of sameness. Shang-Li, The Eternals, Wakanda Forever, The Marvels...they are all going to go through the same beats, have the same tone of Marvelness, while lacking the momentum of the Infinity War Marvel phase.

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

3 hours ago, Veltigar said:

 

Tango and Cash if you want to stick to silly action movies from the eighties and nineties. 

 

Not sure if you're into podcasts about movies, but my favorite one has an episode for T&C and it's hilarious. The movie is peak lowbrow 80's action, perfect for having in the background while you workout. 

[Deadlines? What Deadlines?]

4 hours ago, Heartofice said:

Like I said, I think a lot of the positive praise for Suicide Squad comes from the reaction to the first movie. This is getting extra points for simply having the balls to go in a new direction and taking itself less seriously.

Honestly I don’t think it goes far enough with the stupidity, and still has far too many of the standard Superhero beats for it to be a classic. I would have loved for it to really embrace the craziness and gone balls to the wall stupid, even if it meant the plot made no sense. Think Crank 2 but with superheroes. 
 

Like most movies it’s taking some risks but is still very safe in its structure 

The problem with the first film is not that it took itself seriously. The problem is the powers that be tried to hammer it into a marvel movie and ended up with a Frankenstein of multiple cuts. The result was a random collection of scenes put together by a company that does music videos and movie trailers. 

-

All this talk of superhero deconstruction and no love for Mystery Men? Shame. SHAME! 

[dbunting]

Watched Suicide Squad in large theater Sat matinee and it was worth the price. I don't think I would have enjoyed it as much on a tv screen no matter the size, you just don't get the same vibe.

4 hours ago, Isis said:

I'm still watching Colony too - this series really went in a direction I wasn't expecting it to - which is a good thing. I hope it has more surprises up its sleeve. I'm on S2 and I see there is a S3 so I can't be the only one who likes it.

 

I watched Colony when it was out and liked it well enough, especially since it was a summer series when there was nothing else on. Unfortunately like so many other series it just ends without closure.

[Veltigar]

5 hours ago, DMC said:

No, I definitely meant stupid.  GotG is stupid too, I suppose, but the difference is it gets you invested in the characters and even the story.  I mean, it's frankly impressive how efficient Gunn does that in GOTG - the scene where Rocket is like "we're all standing up now, buncha jackasses standing in a circle" is actually incredibly touching.  I never got anything like that from TSS, at all.

For me it was the complete opposite, but then I think the first GotG is one of the most overrated blockbusters of the last decade, as it really is the standard MCU formula applied to wackier characters and with a better soundtrack.

Spoiler

I thought rat catcher 2's story was quite touching (especially with that pay-off in the flashback near the end), Polka dot man was tragic and the pure charm of Idris Elba and John Cena does way more to build character than whatever is going on in Guardians imo, but I guess it's a taste thing. 

That being said, there are also structural differences. By and large the Guardians are meant to be loveable rogues while the people on the Squad are by and large supposed to be villains and assholes.

5 hours ago, Heartofice said:

Like I said, I think a lot of the positive praise for Suicide Squad comes from the reaction to the first movie. This is getting extra points for simply having the balls to go in a new direction and taking itself less seriously.

That would sort of imply that the critics are bad at their jobs though, as you really need to look at the film in its own right and not at what came before. I think the most logical explanation of the great reviews is simply the fact that it is a damn exciting film, which dares to strike out on its own to try something relatively fresh in a genre that between the Snyderverse's depressiveness and the MCU surface level quipping has become very formulaic. In that sense it's kind of like Thor: Ragnarok or the animated Harley Quinn series. They take creative risks here.

5 hours ago, Heartofice said:

Honestly I don’t think it goes far enough with the stupidity, and still has far too many of the standard Superhero beats for it to be a classic. I would have loved for it to really embrace the craziness and gone balls to the wall stupid, even if it meant the plot made no sense. Think Crank 2 but with superheroes. 
 

Like most movies it’s taking some risks but is still very safe in its structure 

That structure simply works though and part of the appeal is the fact that Suicide Squad is a pastiche of the genre. If it had severed all ties to existing properties it would have lost that angle (and probably would also have been nonsensical).

4 hours ago, IFR said:

@Veltigar

I'm glad you enjoyed The Suicide Squad! I would dispute the review you referenced. The comic book Watchmen is nearly 40 years old, and to me that was not just the introduction of superhero deconstructionism, but it is the best example of it and very thorough, too. You mentioned, for instance, the plot point on foreign policy that is briefly examined in the movie. That was much more deeply explored in Watchmen. Also the silliness of superheroes, etc.

Comic books and these big blockbuster movies aren't nearly the same though. There have definitely been deconstructions of superheroes on the silver screen before (didn't see Super, but I really like Unbreakable which does something similar and there is of course the Watchmen film), but never on this scale I would argue.

I tend to watch a lot of older classics and arthouse films, but when a film like The Suicide Squad comes along I'm reminded of the pure power of blockbuster film making. The resources that Gunn had at his disposal for this film are vast and the platform a good blockbuster gives you to spread some soft power around is tremendous. We often don't realize it, because so many of these big films are made by studio executives more concerned with avoiding a box-office bomb than in turning out something that is artistically viable, leading to middle of the road films ruined by committees and focus groups. When they do get it right though, people take notice. I'm pretty sure a film like for example Fury Road with its strong female cast and feminist narrative has done more than most documentaries and arthouse films made to combat or address gender roles.

5 hours ago, IFR said:

I do agree with you that the homogeneous approach to superhero stories that Marvel has mastered is losing popularity. More inventive, heterogenous approaches will probably see slightly more success. The Joker, TSS, possibly Matt Reeves Batman, all have a somewhat unique identity to each other, which makes them more interesting.

I do feel optimistic that that will happen more and more. That will probably increase the risk of terrible films à la Wonder Woman 1984, but if we get a few Suicide Squads and The Joker instead I'd happily make that bargain.

5 hours ago, IFR said:

For Marvel I'm interested in seeing the next Spiderman movie, which is bringing all the Spiderman casts together. Other than that it just seems like an indistinguishable mess of sameness. Shang-Li, The Eternals, Wakanda Forever, The Marvels...they are all going to go through the same beats, have the same tone of Marvelness, while lacking the momentum of the Infinity War Marvel phase.

I'm curious about Shang-li though, but its creative success will depend on whether they were smart enough to rip off the right kinds of Kung Fu film and fight choreography. A superpower Drunken Master or Ip Man would be quite cool to see and a perfect place to carve out a distinct visual identity. I hope they got a bit more freedom there.

2 hours ago, Tywin et al. said:

Not sure if you're into podcasts about movies, but my favorite one has an episode for T&C and it's hilarious. The movie is peak lowbrow 80's action, perfect for having in the background while you workout. 

Not big on podcasts in general, but I have found that I listen to them more and more due to increased travel time. Which podcast is it?

[DMC]

3 minutes ago, Veltigar said:

For me it was the complete opposite, but then I think the first GotG is one of the most overrated blockbusters of the last decade, as it really is the standard MCU formula applied to wackier characters and with a better soundtrack.

  Reveal hidden contents

I thought rat catcher 2's story was quite touching (especially with that pay-off in the flashback near the end), Polka dot man was tragic and the pure charm of Idris Elba and John Cena does way more to build character than whatever is going on in Guardians imo, but I guess it's a taste thing. 

That being said, there are also structural differences. By and large the Guardians are meant to be loveable rogues while the people on the Squad are by and large supposed to be villains and assholes.

I read that the guy that played the polka-dot dude - I remembered him from Dark Knight btw - actually has vitiligo and identified with the character more than Gunn or the producers were even aware of.  I can see that.  Also read that "Ratcatcher 2," or Melchior, was supposed to be the heart of the movie - according to Gunn.  I can see that.  Problem is there isn't that much of that.

Everybody has their own tastes, but for me TSS is more akin to Deadpool, and especially Deadpool 2.  Lots of people loved those films, but I never cared about anyone in it and especially with 2 it just seemed like it was alternating between "shockingly" killing people off in graphic ways and trying to be funny.  Now, to be clear, Gunn actually is funny whereas Ryan Reynolds et al. really annoyed me in trying way too hard to be funny, but the film still fell into an analogous trap where it just seemed incredibly vapid.

And as far as soundtracks go, I was incredibly disappointed.  It opened up great with Cash, but after that there wasn't anything I was particularly impressed with, and even the score got distractingly poor.  Like I said, I hope this does not portend Gunn's future efforts, because he can demonstrably do much better.

[polishgenius]

I liked TSS, but was it really deconstructing superheroes and their tropes? There were some send-ups in individual scenes like the Avengers poking in the final showdown, but I felt like in actual structure and story if it was deconstructing anything it was spy/espionage and squad-mission war movies and it played the actual superhero bit fairly straight, even if the 'heroes' themselves are not that heroic.  

I don't have a problem with that- unlike HoI, I don't think superhero tropes are an inherent negative, and it hit them well enough and with some neat snark- but when compared to something like The Boys or Invincible I don't think it hit those targets if that was what it was going for, even accounting for the difference between movie and TV. 

Birds of Prey was a better film than TSS though. I'm just saying. 

[Zorral]

The Barefoot Contessa, on Amazon Prime. 1954, Ava Gardner, Humphrey Bogart, Spain, France and Italy, and in-between, Hollywood, with all the above there's nothing not to enjoy.  A fractured fairy tale-tragic opera, in which Cinderella meets her ultimate white knight, but he comes out of Hemingway's The Sun Also Rises.   I'd never see this film before though I've been encountering its title it seems all my life.  

~~~~~~~~

For those who were pleased by McDonald & Dodds, season 2 is releasing an episode every Tuesday this month.

[williamjm]

1 hour ago, Deadlines? What Deadlines? said:

All this talk of superhero deconstruction and no love for Mystery Men? Shame. SHAME! 

It does feel like that film maybe came out at the wrong time, it is parodying superhero films but did it before superhero films really started to dominate the box office.

[Rippounet]

Last week, as I was starting season 4 I'd written that Le bureau des légendes (supposedly one of the best French shows ever) was disappointing. So of course the showrunners proved me wrong with season 4 and 5 being amazing.
Much of what was wrong in the first seasons disappeared, and it turned into an excellent spy story, gripping and fascinating. Every arc was equally interesting, and the characterization finally developed into something that is actually not seen in many shows: three-dimensional characters, each with their likable (and moving) aspects, but also their -very human- flaws, with their personalities influencing the plot in credible ways without taking over said plot. What does make the show stand out in the end is how balanced it is between its focus on the characters, and the intelligence work (itself being credible, despite the fact that the DGSE doesn't really operate that way). The overall message remains that being an intelligence officer means making sacrifices for your country. I didn't quite like the patriotic angle in that in the first 3 seasons, but seasons 4 and 5 turn this into a good theme, because the characters (including several who seemed rather secondary at times before) make different choices and end up in different places.
I like the fact that one of them ends up being the new director of intelligence [I don't think that countrs as a spoiler: if anyone here decides to watch the show, I think you'll have fun trying to guess who it is who rises through the ranks].

The final two episodes of season 5 are a bit controversial. The creator (Erich Rochant) let director Jacques Audiard be in charge, which changed the tone a bit. Imho, Audiard traded elements of credibility (the geopolitics especially, but also the pace) for aesthetism: the finale has a poetic feel to it as it focuses on what has been the "main" story (/arc), but isn't as easily credible as what came before. Still, I found the conclusion satisfying and a very good payoff, after 50 episodes.

Still, I wonder if I'd recommend a show that takes so long to become what one could reasonably expect from the start. It's only a good watch if you have a particular interest in watching a French show.

This is a comment on the final episode (major spoilers):

The last episodes conclude the story of agent Guillaume Debailly and his personal evolution as a tortured individual. I get that many people didn't like it: the character makes a crucial mistake that doesn't suit him (he is, after all, one of the best intelligence officers in the world): if you know that someone is out for vengeance, surely the person you love is the first person you'd think to protect? But perhaps this final failing is what the character was about all along. And I understand Audiard being attracted to the poetry of killing Nadia, the reason why Debailly betrayed his country and his colleagues, first by giving information to the CIA, and then by joining the FSB (!). This story just couldn't end well, and this was the logical narrative choice - so why not turn the aesthetics to the max? If nothing else, it is a good moment of cinema.

[Deadlines? What Deadlines?]

1 hour ago, williamjm said:

It does feel like that film maybe came out at the wrong time, it is parodying superhero films but did it before superhero films really started to dominate the box office.

I agree. It was ahead of its time. 

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

2 hours ago, Veltigar said:

Not big on podcasts in general, but I have found that I listen to them more and more due to increased travel time. Which podcast is it?

Cinephobe. They review poorly rated movies to see if they got a fair shake. Obviously the two guiltiest parties are Nic Cage and John Travolta. 

42 minutes ago, Deadlines? What Deadlines? said:

I agree. It was ahead of its time. 

Saw most of it not that long ago while channel surfing. Not sure if it holds up that well, but the cast is impressive. 

[Heartofice]

I don’t think TSS is especially strong as a super hero parody or pastiche. Bits of it sort of are, I really love the disposable nature of the characters in the first scenes and actually that opening beach bit is maybe the strongest part because it feels like it’s breaking all the rules.

But then the movie just goes back to playing by the rules again, and I don’t think it’s really trying to be a send up of the genre. Deadpool probably did a better job in that regards.

Parodying super heroes isn’t a new thing though, I remember being a kid and realising that the old 60s Batman tv show was actually a joke and didn’t take itself seriously at all.. and it went from dreadful to genius immediately in my mind. And as a teen my favourite show was The Tick.. which again was a straight up parody of super hero tropes.. which was very similar to Mystery Men. 

[Deadlines? What Deadlines?]

Incredibles too.

Why hasn't anyone tried their hand at an Ambush Bug movie?

[Deadlines? What Deadlines?]

Da 5 Bloods: There were things I liked a lot; other things not so much. It's difficult to pin down because there was a lot going on in that movie. The Chadwick Boseman scenes have a certain impact now that he's passed. Great performances all around.

I dunno. Some of Spike Lee's recent films don't have the same impact for me as his earlier stuff. His Oldboy remake wasn't well received but I'd still like to see it.