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Mrstrategy

Is Illyrio Mopatis as rich as the Lannister or Tyrrell?

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Unknown. Martin tends to treat things like numbers behind economics and demographics as a means to support the plot. Illyrio was rich enough to buy off Khal Drogo, buy dragon eggs, finance Dany's ships and buy the Golden Company. He'll be rich enough to do what Martin wants him to. Just like the Lannisters and Tyrells.

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4 minutes ago, Lord Lannister said:

Unknown. Martin tends to treat things like numbers behind economics and demographics as a means to support the plot. Illyrio was rich enough to buy off Khal Drogo, buy dragon eggs, finance Dany's ships and buy the Golden Company. He'll be rich enough to do what Martin wants him to. Just like the Lannisters and Tyrells.

Yep.


Also are we comparing Lannister wealth in the beginning of the series or at the end of the last book?
 

For argument’s sake I’ll use the beginning of the story. I do believe Mopatis is wealthy, but he cannot compare to what the Lannisters have. Whether it be through their directly managed assets or through vassals.

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7 hours ago, Lord Lannister said:

Unknown. Martin tends to treat things like numbers behind economics and demographics as a means to support the plot. Illyrio was rich enough to buy off Khal Drogo, buy dragon eggs, finance Dany's ships and buy the Golden Company. He'll be rich enough to do what Martin wants him to. Just like the Lannisters and Tyrells.

It means he's richer than the Lannisters if he paid fair prices for those dragon eggs and bought those other services for the Targaryens.  The Sealord is also interested in the welfare of the Targaryens.  The Iron Bank could go in with Illyrio and extend him all the credit he needs to overthrow the Lannisters. 

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4 hours ago, Targaryen Restoration said:

The Sealord is also interested in the welfare of the Targaryens.  The Iron Bank could go in with Illyrio and extend him all the credit he needs to overthrow the Lannisters. 

EX Sealord cared about welfare of Targs. But he died and we do not know what his successor thinks about Targs. But during that time their house did not have any dragons and Braavos did hate dragonlords so I suspect that new Sealord would rather kill all Targs than support them.

In fact I suspect that could be one reason why Iron Bank support Stannis. After all he seems to be in very bad position and giving him any money might seem very bad idea but he is NOT a Targ. Or chances that IB would get any money back from Stannis are minimal but Iron Bank sent their agent to meet him instead of any Targ.

Naturally Iron Bank would support (f)Aegon if he promised to pay back national debt of Westeros and he would NOT gain any dragons. But I suspect that he would not make either of those promises. So I suspect that IB will NOT support Team Blackfyre.

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13 hours ago, Targaryen Restoration said:

It means he's richer than the Lannisters if he paid fair prices for those dragon eggs and bought those other services for the Targaryens.  The Sealord is also interested in the welfare of the Targaryens.  The Iron Bank could go in with Illyrio and extend him all the credit he needs to overthrow the Lannisters. 

Not really. You could just as easily make that argument for the Lannisters with the few disjointed facts we have. They were able to finance Robert's crazy spending with loans they collected interest on, they've funded non stop campaigns during the War of the Five kings, and Kevan mentioned in his POV they were just sitting on enough gold to pay off the Crown's debts to the Iron Bank. But none of these snippets form a complete picture of the world economy because there isn't one. These snippets are there just to support the needs of the plot.

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If Corlys Velaryon could get richer than the Hightowers and the Lannisters for a time, simply because he took a fleet of ships to Qarth and beyond then it is rather obvious that the magisters of the Free Cities - which control the trade in exotic goods from the east to a very high degree - would be much richer than House Velaryon in its prime.

The Lannisters export their gold and the Redwynes their wine (and they make considerable profit from that) but the merchant fleets of the Free Cities import exotic goods to Westeros.

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We should agree on the definition of "rich", before. Who is richer? The one who has more coins in his vaults, the one who has a bigger net equity, or the one who owns more assets? If the later cases, should you count only the assets owned directly, or the ones owned indirectly through someone's vassals count too? And which value would you give to things such as lands, strongholds or slaves?

The answer would vary greatly depending on those.

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1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

If Corlys Velaryon could get richer than the Hightowers and the Lannisters for a time, simply because he took a fleet of ships to Qarth and beyond then it is rather obvious that the magisters of the Free Cities - which control the trade in exotic goods from the east to a very high degree - would be much richer than House Velaryon in its prime.

The Lannisters export their gold and the Redwynes their wine (and they make considerable profit from that) but the merchant fleets of the Free Cities import exotic goods to Westeros.

In fairness, it's not like Corlys started from zero. House Velaryon was already very wealthy at that point. The successful trade voyage is just the tipping of the scales. 

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Quote

 

Skahaz Shavepate slammed his fist upon the table. "The Green Grace will accomplish nothing. She may be conspiring with the Yunkai'i even as we sit here. Arrangements, did you say? Make arrangements? What sort of arrangements?"

"Ransom," said Ser Barristan. "Each man's weight in gold."

"The Wise Masters do not need our gold, ser," said Marselen. "They are richer than your Westerosi lords, every one."

 

 

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He is nowhere as rich as them. They have lands, people and raw resources, he doesn't (he owns one mansion, several dozens slaves, a few ships, some money and some goods, etc.). He is just a trader. A rich, but nevertheless only a trader. He buys and sells goods, but he doesn't produce anything. And he doesn't have any official leverage at Pentos, while Tywin and Mace are both Lords of the Kingdom.

Illyrio didn't bought Khal Drogo, nor those dragon eggs that he gave to Dany, and neither did he paid to the Golden Company. GC are working with Illyrio because his wife Sera was a Blackfyre. And it seems likely that the price for which those eggs were bought was the freedom for Hop-Bean and his children - three mummer-dwarfs to whom the Sealord of Braavos gave dragon eggs as a reward for their performance <- that's only my theory, but there are indications in the books that that is so, you'll see later.

When Illyrio was escorting Tyrion to pass him to Griff, they were traveling in the same palanquin, not in two. It's like he owns only one car/automobile, not many. If he was truly RICH, then they would have traveled in separate palanquins.

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3 hours ago, Floki of the Ironborn said:

In fairness, it's not like Corlys started from zero. House Velaryon was already very wealthy at that point. The successful trade voyage is just the tipping of the scales. 

Of course, but the earlier wealth of House Velaryon is also based on trade, not on vast lands or natural resources on Driftmark.

If the Velaryons can equal and surpass the Hightowers and Lannisters in the wealth department simply by making good use of their merchant fleet (small compared to the number of merchant ships the rulers of the Free Cities control) then it stands to reason that the rulers of the Free Cities can and did that in the past, too.

Lannister wealth literally is like dragon hoard wealth. The Lannisters live in a gigantic rock full of gold. They can mint gold dragons in their cellar, basically. I guess if we considered how much gold can still be mined at the Rock then the Lannisters are basically the richest people in Martinworld. But they would only mine enough to keep inflation in check. But whenever the Lannisters are in desperate need of ready coin they go down into their cellars.

1 hour ago, Megorova said:

He is nowhere as rich as them. They have lands, people and raw resources, he doesn't (he owns one mansion, several dozens slaves, a few ships, some money and some goods, etc.). He is just a trader. A rich, but nevertheless only a trader. He buys and sells goods, but he doesn't produce anything. And he doesn't have any official leverage at Pentos, while Tywin and Mace are both Lords of the Kingdom.

Land doesn't mean wealth. Owning vast castles, keeping lavish courts, etc. is costly, and we know that quite a few lords controlling vast lands are pretty poor. Illyrio's modest living style indicates he has much more coin at the ready than most noblemen in Westeros and Essos. Illyrio has a humble background, very much like Littlefinger ... and both don't really feel the need to show off their wealth by wasting coin on very expensive clothes, armor, trinkets, etc.

Illyrio is a merchant lord whose ships go all the way to the Jade Sea. For him that's a regular thing. He clearly is as rich or richer than Corlys Velaryon was in his prime.

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