LOTR series: a view of the Two Trees

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

14 minutes ago, Ghjhero said:

Yeaaa, I’ll wait till we get a longer trailer, but right now I don’t feel optimistic

We need more information to make an assessment.  It looks very generic.

[Lord Varys]

3 hours ago, The Marquis de Leech said:

A cornerstone of theodicy in Tolkien's world is that Evil will backfire and generate Good. Would Arda be a better and more beautiful place if the Noldor had joined their Vanyarin counterparts and sat around praising Manwe all day? Probably not, or at least not outside Valinor. The efforts of the Noldor gave rise to Eru's Planned History, created the Silmarils, and eventually saved Middle-earth. The Vanyar did nothing outside the War of Wrath - to use an expression, they have the purity of the eunuch.

(And as The Nature of Middle-earth points out, there is good reason for thinking the Elves should never have been invited to Aman in the first place. Lack of faith in Eru to not let His children be destroyed, and all that. Manwe makes mistakes, no matter how the blond-haired muppets at his feet might adore him).  

That is all true, but it doesn't change the hierarchy among the Elven peoples. And to be clear: The Teleri are nearly as detached from events in Middle-earth than the Vanyar are. But that doesn't make them as wise and honored and great as the Vanyar. Ingwe is viewed and honored as the King of all the Elves, not Olwe.

In context you can easily enough view the Vanyar as the theologians of the Elves. Or rather, perhaps, as their clerics or monks/nuns - the ones giving themselves completely to god and being set before everybody else for that reason, like in the Middle Ages the First Estate were the clerics and not the nobility.

But in the end this isn't a hierarchy of calling but a racial or ethnic hierarchy ... because you are born Vanya. You cannot join them of your own free will.

And in context it isn't surprising that Finarfin and Fingolfin and their children are, over all, *better* than Feanor and his sons. Their mother was a Vanya of very high birth, after all, making them more insightful, wiser, etc. than Feanor and his sons (or rather: that is a view/interpretation you can easily come up with even if it is not explicit in the text).

3 hours ago, DMC said:

Yes this was my point, just substitute "religiously superior" for "morally superior."  And while of course it is no accident the Vanyar are the "lightest" elves, that is not the root of the hierarchy.

I don't think the looks have to be at the root of the hierarchy. I mean, when we talk racist theory nonsense then no right-winger would say Aryans are *better than others* just because they are (supposedly) blond and blue-eyed - but rather that that are their looks but that their ingrained high culture, their (imagined) biological advantages, etc. set them above the other races. The looks certainly reflect or express that imagined superiority but they are not the root or cause of it.

As for Galadriel:

Even in a faithful adaptation - which isn't what we talking about here - she should be wearing armor (and perhaps even wielding a ceremonial sword even if she never actually uses it in close combat) if she is depicted as being with or leading an Elven army. Medieval queens also wore armor when being with their respective armies, so there is no issue there.

We know too little about Galadriel's actual actions during the Second Age to say Tolkien kept her out of the thick of the fighting against Sauron's forces at all times. She could have been involved in the fighting in Eriador around the time the Rings were made, she could have been involved in the fighting in the later era, say, when Sauron's absence caused Gil-galad's influence to increase in the Northwest, and she could have been with the army on the Dagorlad and later with the forces besieging Barad-dûr.

The Galadriel of that era wasn't the Lady of Lórien nor were her people as passive as the Elves at the end of the Third Age. They went out into the world and they fought and died and Galadriel would have been a part of that.

Depending what route one would take in a faithful adaptation one certainly could see Galadriel confronting Annatar in full armor during their final confrontation at Ost-in-Edhil (it could be a great scene to have Galadriel draw a sword and threaten Annatar physically while he remains calm and friendly and basically makes her appear as a hysterical madwoman), or there being actual fighting during Celebrimbor's coup which led to Galadriel's exile from Eregion.

In context, we would also expect Aredhel to wear armor during her sojourns out of Gondolin.

[Werthead]

1 hour ago, Clueless Northman said:

Galadriel most probably was leading her armies at times, during 2nd and 3rd Ages. Napoleon didn't shoot rifles and stuck his bayonet on Russian or British soldiers in his later years, as far as I know, yet he was still military commander.

Napoleon was a commander of artillery in his early soldiering and took part in battles in that capacity, where he was in some personal jeopardy. So yes, he did get up close and personal in combat as his position allowed, before spending his later days in command positions. Although in 19th Century field battles even the commanders were still quite close to the front (the bit in Waterloo where the generals can actually see each other through telescopes and Wellington's commander of artillery begs to take a pot shot at Napoleon is, although probably apocryphal, not impossible).

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But I am bothered by this "northern armies" organization. Apart from Gil-Galad's kingdom of Lindon, the Elves really had nothing in the north. I suppose Eregion could be considered north, too. But that term they gave implies that the Elves are militarily active in the north, north of what? I doubt the silvan elves from Greenwood and Lorien are part of it.

Probably Lindon and Eregion, as distinguished from elven kingdoms in the south (presumably whatever scattered elven settlements were in what is later Gondor at the time; we know some elves lived near what became Dol Amroth), and indeed Lorien and Greenwood beyond the mountains. Arondor apparently comes from a "southlands" elven kingdom near Harad, presumably of Avari origin.

It may also be that "northern armies" may be a term given to an elven military force fighting in the north of what becomes main theatre of the War of Sauron and Elves, in the region were Elrond makes a stand and founds Rivendell. There may be eastern armies for the elven armies beyond the Mountains of Mist and western for the forces of Lindon.

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Did these writers not want to be a part of it merely because they thought it couldn't be done, or because they had good reasons to fear Amazon interferences, or even were aware of some requirements, "wishes" and restrictions Amazon had about the adaptation? If it's the former, I would tend to think they might have not make a great job, but they might have avoided some of the most awful stuff the studio would try to put in the series - the way PJ doing the Hobbit wasn't stellar but made sure there would be limits to how far the studio would be able to push for total lunacy. If it's the latter, it'd be very worrying - though a studio having asinine ideas about how to adapt a book wouldn't surprise me of course.

I think there were lots of reasons, including also simple availability: Amazon put this into turnaround very fast when a lot of showrunners were committed to their current projects for years down the line. Hollywood has tripled its scripted output in the last ten years, and the recruitment of new writers, directors and actors has not scaled up to match as quickly, leaving a dearth of experienced showrunners out there, especially those who were available at the right moment.

[Werthead]

Trailer analysis: The trailer opens with Markella Kavenagh's character, a Harfoot named Tyra*, asking, "Haven't you wondered what else is out there? There's wonders in this world beyond our wandering." The Harfoots are a tribe of primitive, nomadic Hobbits; along with the Fallohides and Stoors, their descendants will eventually found the Shire (though not at least for a couple of thousand years). The brief glimpse we have of "Tyra" suggests a pastoral, nomadic society still living in tents, which seems reasonable.

The first image we see is a great harbour, probably a port city in Numenor (almost certainly so from the mountain of Meneltarma rising behind the port). Very strong Gondor vibes here. The mini-Argonath-style statue in the harbour of a Numenorean king is very cool. We then see plainsmen hunting, and a huge waterfall plunging over a frozen landscape (in Angmar or Forochel?). This is out first glimpse of Galadriel (Morfydd Clark), who seems to be doing a Jon Snow and trying to climb the Wall. There's then a shot of a man, Halbrand (Charlie Vickers), on a sinking raft.

There's an exchange of arrows in a forest at night, with Arondir (Ismael Cruz Cordova) doing some Legolas-style shit like plucking arrows out of the air and firing them back at the attackers. A flaming meteor fills the skies whilst the elven High King Gil-galad (Benjamin Walker) watches on, and Galadriel galloping across green fields next to spectacular mountains. We see a cloaked figure - maybe Galadriel again - fending off a monster of some kind. We see numerous elves gathered around a tree next to a waterfall above a lake or possibly the sea; I believe this is a location in Lindon.

The trailer then cuts to brief images of Prince Durin of Khazad-dum (Owain Arthur), Lord Elrond (Robert Aramayo) and the dwarven Princess Disa (Sophia Nomvete). We then see Galadriel on the same raft as earlier, her elven ears being exposed, and what appears to be Durin helping another dwarf in the mines of Khazad-dum. We see a dwarf smashing a rock to pieces, a fierce battle between elven warriors and orcs, a chained Arondir attempting to escape from some kind of encampment, and a human hand clasping that of a Harfoot.

* Possibly not her final name, since even the show-original characters had codenames in their casting calls, which is weird.

If I hadn't read the Vanity Fair article, I'd probably be a lot more excited. As it stands, it looks excellent but the time compression things is really annoying me. It's something you can very, very easily accommodate in the story but the fact they noped out of that at the first hurdle is concerning. The actual visual quality looks excellent. We're not really given enough of any acting or dialogue to make a judgement on that.

[Corvinus85]

17 minutes ago, Werthead said:

The first image we see is a great harbour, probably a port city in Numenor (almost certainly so from the mountain of Meneltarma rising behind the port). Very strong Gondor vibes here. The mini-Argonath-style statue in the harbour of a Numenorean king is very cool. We then see plainsmen hunting, and a huge waterfall plunging over a frozen landscape (in Angmar or Forochel?). This is out first glimpse of Galadriel (Morfydd Clark), who seems to be doing a Jon Snow and trying to climb the Wall. There's then a shot of a man, Halbrand (Charlie Vickers), on a sinking raft.

Was it Numenor? Is the sun symbol Numenorean? Because Galadriel has that symbol on her armor. I think much more of the trailer was just Lindon.

[The Marquis de Leech]

43 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

That is all true, but it doesn't change the hierarchy among the Elven peoples. And to be clear: The Teleri are nearly as detached from events in Middle-earth than the Vanyar are. But that doesn't make them as wise and honored and great as the Vanyar. Ingwe is viewed and honored as the King of all the Elves, not Olwe.

In context you can easily enough view the Vanyar as the theologians of the Elves. Or rather, perhaps, as their clerics or monks/nuns - the ones giving themselves completely to god and being set before everybody else for that reason, like in the Middle Ages the First Estate were the clerics and not the nobility.

But in the end this isn't a hierarchy of calling but a racial or ethnic hierarchy ... because you are born Vanya. You cannot join them of your own free will.

And in context it isn't surprising that Finarfin and Fingolfin and their children are, over all, *better* than Feanor and his sons. Their mother was a Vanya of very high birth, after all, making them more insightful, wiser, etc. than Feanor and his sons (or rather: that is a view/interpretation you can easily come up with even if it is not explicit in the text).

OK, by your reasoning, is Elenwe (Vanya, left Valinor) "better" than Nerdanel (Noldo, no Vanyar blood, stayed home)?

I do not think the Noldor would have been improved had they adopted Vanyarian cultural habits. Insofar as there is a loose Elven hierarchy in favour of the Vanyar, I'd put it down to them being the hand-picked people of the First Elf to awake, rather than the hand-picked people of the Second Elf to awake - but it's really just titular politeness, not something that anyone recognises in moral relationships (much less political ones). No Noldorin Prince would acknowledge Ingwe giving them orders, and rightly so. 

[Rhom]

30 minutes ago, Werthead said:

their descendants will eventually found the Shire (though not at least for a couple of thousand years). 

Nah.  With all the time compression; we’ll see the founding of the Shire no later than season three.

[DMC]

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

I don't think the looks have to be at the root of the hierarchy.

If you're saying it's an ethnic or racial hierarchy, yes, I think physical characteristics would by definition be the root of that hierarchy.  As it is for the real-world analogue when we're talking about white supremacy (albeit, of course, religion is in there too).

[Falcon2909]

Just saw the trailer ,looks like Narnia with PS4 graphics; doesn't feel LOTR at all

[polishgenius]

Looks a trailer made in the charge of someone with lots of money, plenty of design competence, and no imagination whatsoever. 

[ASOIAFrelatedusername]

I seriously do not know whether to laugh or cry. This is just awful

And for added hilarity, here is Vanity Fair's analysis:

https://www.vanityfair.com/hollywood/2022/02/the-lord-of-the-rings-teaser-trailer-amazon

(I mean they could just be pulling stuff out of their ass, but I would not be suprised if it turns out to be true)

[Ran]

5 hours ago, Werthead said:

We see a cloaked figure - maybe Galadriel again - fending off a monster of some kind.

I think it’s Elrond, or in any case another elf who is free climbing up that mountain with Galadriel. If you look carefully, there are at least three other cloaked figures further down the mountainside as she’s leaping.

It looks spectacular, which it had better do given the insanity of the budget. But anyone who wants to tell me Galadriel was intended by Tolkien to be free climbing icy mountains while wearing armor is, at best, a comedian. This is a lot nearer to Xena than I had expected.

ETA: If it's Lindon, I would have expected that sun symbol to be stars, Gil-galad's personal heraldry. The huge, solitary mountain makes me think Meneltarma. This could be Rómenna, the great sea port. 

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

The teaser isn’t much better than the photos in the VF piece.

[Prince Yourwetdream Aeryn]

Every time they release new information it gets worse. I know that even Jackson movies were not a match for Lotr. But what Amazon is doing now is blasphemy.

[Heartofice]

Honestly I don't care too much about the accuracy, I always found stuff like the Silmarillion impossible to read, but what really bothers me about what I've seen so far is it just is giving me massive The Hobbit vibes, like everything is cleaned up and sanitised and dumbed down and made for a stupid audience. I would prefer that this show was dense and impenetrable, and took itself far too seriously. 

[Ser Drewy]

The trailer also just does not give me any kind of Tolkien vibes or Second Age vibes, particularly. If I'm honest, it gives off pretty 'generic fantasy vibes' moreso than anything. I mean, you could probably trick me this was a D&D show, or a Dragon Age show, or something if I didn't know it was meant to be LOTR. 

3 hours ago, Ran said:

It looks spectacular, which it had better do given the insanity of the budget. But anyone who wants to tell me Galadriel was intended by Tolkien to be free climbing icy mountains while wearing armor is, at best, a comedian. This is a lot nearer to Xena than I had expected.

ETA: If it's Lindon, I would have expected that sun symbol to be stars, Gil-galad's personal heraldry. The huge, solitary mountain makes me think Meneltarma. This could be Rómenna, the great sea port. 

Looks like there could be a lot of goofy actiony stuff. That slow-mo shot of the guy jumping gave me superhero film vibes. It certainly looks expensive, but it's really a queston of how they're using all that money.

Plus it looks like meteor man is real. Swear to God, if it's Gandalf or Sauron... argh. 

ETA: I have to admit, 'Before the King' gave me a laugh as an awkward tagline. What king? Was there only one? 

[Darryk]

Looks beautiful visually, but feels like a trailer for Narnia rather than LOTR. And young Elrond just looks so wrong.

[sifth]

Well the trailer wasn't the worst thing I've seen before, but the lack of experience of the showrunners will be a very difficult thing for the show to over come for me. Still I do enjoy watching bad films, with my friends, so even if this 500 million dollar series is horrible, it still might be worth watching. Sometimes it's just fun to watch money burn.

I honestly didn't hate the trailer, but it did give me Hobbit vibes, that focused more on showing off the visuals and not so much the characters.

[Calibandar]

Many good points in here.

I was disappointed by the trailer. On the positive side, the CGI looks great, the scenery etc.

Plus it has Gil-Galad, another positive.

On the downside it looks extremely politically correct, features no actors of any name ( unlike for instance GoT or the LoTR movies) and thats part of what makes it feel very anonymous. It also has a very lightweight feel to it, bordering on the childish.

Still, hope for the best, will definitely see it, its a Tolkien show after all.

[Lord Varys]

8 hours ago, The Marquis de Leech said:

OK, by your reasoning, is Elenwe (Vanya, left Valinor) "better" than Nerdanel (Noldo, no Vanyar blood, stayed home)?

No, but hers is a very special case. The Vanyar clearly are *better* than the Noldor as a people in the sense that they never listened to Melkor, never took his advice to create weapons at war, never allowed his talk to cause strife amongst themselves.

8 hours ago, The Marquis de Leech said:

I do not think the Noldor would have been improved had they adopted Vanyarian cultural habits. Insofar as there is a loose Elven hierarchy in favour of the Vanyar, I'd put it down to them being the hand-picked people of the First Elf to awake, rather than the hand-picked people of the Second Elf to awake - but it's really just titular politeness, not something that anyone recognises in moral relationships (much less political ones). No Noldorin Prince would acknowledge Ingwe giving them orders, and rightly so. 

Nobody ever said anything about the Vanyar actually ruling the other Elven people - merely that they are at the top of the Elven hierarchy. There is a clear hierarchy among the Elves:

Vanyar > Noldor > Teleri > Sindar > Nandor > Avari

And that hierarchy is marked both by the looks of the Elven tribes but, more importantly, by their cultural and moral and 'religious' achievements. The Avari are, in the end, the Elven equivalent to primitive, superstitious, heathen savages. And we have that kind of thing mimicked with the tribes of Man whose cultural and moral and religious achievements become ever greater and better the closer they get to the Eldar and the Valar.

Ingwe's position certainly also owes something to his connection with the First Elf ... but even more so to his status as the leader of the Vanyar during the Great Journey.

7 hours ago, DMC said:

If you're saying it's an ethnic or racial hierarchy, yes, I think physical characteristics would by definition be the root of that hierarchy.  As it is for the real-world analogue when we're talking about white supremacy (albeit, of course, religion is in there too).

I actually don't think so, especially not when you consider real world racism and racist theories. I mean, an 'Anglo-Saxon' dressing down an Irishman as a person racially inferior to them isn't basing that kind of chauvinism on looks or phyiscal traits (alone) but the construct that Anglo-Saxon culture and blood is vastly superior to the celtic element prevalent in those Catholic heathens from the other island.

Physical characteristics play a role in racism, but in the end it is about the creation of homogenous peoples whose racial and cultural traits only belong to them.

And Tolkien uses that kind of language to describe all his peoples. Actual chauvinism is less prevalent than in real world racist discourse, of course, but it is there anyway.

I mean, imagine a novel describing various European peoples the way Tolkien described the tribes of the Hobbits and Elves, the differences between Dunlendings and Rohirrim, the racial hierarchy Faramir establishes, how the Orcs are dehumanized, etc. We would be basically talking about Nazi shit in that context.

We just don't realize how ugly this would be in the real world because we talk about fantasy races/peoples - and because people usually behave as if the racial and ethnic hierarchies we encounter are actual depictions of the in-universe reality. Théoden and Éomer worship and lick the boots of the Dúnadan scion Aragorn, they are in awe of bloodline and ancestry ... they do not view as the arrogant prick that he is.