LOTR series: a view of the Two Trees

[Calibandar]

"But as the theme progressed, it came into the heart of Melkor to interweave matters of his own imagining that were not in accord with the theme of Iluvatar; for he sought therein to increase the power and glory of the part assigned to himself."

[DMC]

8 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

I actually don't think so, especially not when you consider real world racism and racist theories. I mean, an 'Anglo-Saxon' dressing down an Irishman as a person racially inferior to them isn't basing that kind of chauvinism on looks or phyiscal traits (alone) but the construct that Anglo-Saxon culture and blood is vastly superior to the celtic element prevalent in those Catholic heathens from the other island.

Yes, sorry, my post was hastily written and subsequently very unclear.  In terms of real world "ethnic hierarchies," obviously there are plenty of examples of that that have led to travesties that have nothing to do with differences in physical characteristics.  (Although, as you mentioned, ironically the one you employed there is also in large part based on religious superiority/oppression.)  My point was when we're talking about a hierarchy between elves in a fictional universe, to identify it as "ethnically" or especially "racially" based, differences in physical characteristics is basically all we have to go off of. 

And again, when it comes to the Vanyar's supposed "superiority," I've always taken it as based on their proximity to Aman and the Valar, i.e. a religious hierarchy.  Like, I don't know about you, but the graph differentiating the subgroups of the elves in my copy of The Silmarillion (basically this one) is organized from left-to-right based on The Great Journey.  That's why I think the hierarchy is much more "religious" than ethnic or racial.

22 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

I mean, imagine a novel describing various European peoples the way Tolkien described the tribes of the Hobbits and Elves, the differences between Dunlendings and Rohirrim, the racial hierarchy Faramir establishes, how the Orcs are dehumanized, etc. We would be basically talking about Nazi shit in that context.

Oh I certainly agree the examples of the Rohirrim/Dunlendings, the Haradrim, the blatant worship/superiority of the Dunedain - as well as the differences between elves, dwarves, and men - are all what Tolkien uses to mimic real-world racial or ethnic supremacist ideology.  That's why I only responded to the differences between the elvish tribes - I think that one is different.

[Lord Varys]

1 hour ago, DMC said:

Yes, sorry, my post was hastily written and subsequently very unclear.  In terms of real world "ethnic hierarchies," obviously there are plenty of examples of that that have led to travesties that have nothing to do with differences in physical characteristics.  (Although, as you mentioned, ironically the one you employed there is also in large part based on religious superiority/oppression.)  My point was when we're talking about a hierarchy between elves in a fictional universe, to identify it as "ethnically" or especially "racially" based, differences in physical characteristics is basically all we have to go off of. 

Well, if you want to establish a racial or ethnic hierarchy you jump on any characteristic you can use to dehumanize or 'other' the folks you want to oppress or dismiss. Religion is often a key element there - but that's of course one that's missing in Tolkien's world. The Irish example I used I find particularly striking because, like with many racist theories, we see how something that was religious later was more and more 'racialized' in the sense that Irish Catholics basically became another race - it is similar with Jews, antijudaism naturally developing into modern antisemitism, etc.

1 hour ago, DMC said:

And again, when it comes to the Vanyar's supposed "superiority," I've always taken it as based on their proximity to Aman and the Valar, i.e. a religious hierarchy.  Like, I don't know about you, but the graph differentiating the subgroups of the elves in my copy of The Silmarillion (basically this one) is organized from left-to-right based on The Great Journey.  That's why I think the hierarchy is much more "religious" than ethnic or racial.

I'd agree that with the Elves we don't have that much of hierarchy based on looks as such, especially since only the Noldor and the Vanyar seem to have a characteristic look - the Teleri/Sindar are much more diverse in appearance, at least in the crucial element of hair-coloring.

What exactly this hierarchy means in practice is also pretty unclear - the Vanyar aren't in contact with the Elves outside of Aman, and it is the same with the Noldor and Teleri living there. But the overall vibe you get from the Elven peoples and their closeness to the Valar this seems to reflect the various circles of heaven and the hierarchy of the angels being determined by closeness to god. The closer you are to Manwe the nobler, wiser, etc. you are.

It is a pity that Tolkien never gave us the great moment of the Vanyar - they sent out an army to crush Morgoth during the War of Wrath and in the original LT conception the original Ingwe was supposed to have died during that war. That event should have firmly established them as the most powerful Elves in existence.

We can certainly stress the religious aspect of this more ... but we can also see this as something akin to the other racial hierarchies we get, e.g. the natural leaders among the Hobbits being those of Fallohide descent. If you look at that it is no surprise that those 'most elven-like' Hobbits are basically the Vanyar version of the Hobbits - right down to their fair hair.

1 hour ago, DMC said:

Oh I certainly agree the examples of the Rohirrim/Dunlendings, the Haradrim, the blatant worship/superiority of the Dunedain - as well as the differences between elves, dwarves, and men - are all what Tolkien uses to mimic real-world racial or ethnic supremacist ideology.  That's why I only responded to the differences between the elvish tribes - I think that one is different.

I think in a theoretical sense we definitely get a high culture vs. low cultuer/primitivism in the depiction of the Elven tribes. The Nandor of Ossiriand and the natives of Lórien are clearly inferior to their Sindar and Noldor masters - just as it is natural that these primitive Elves would be ruled by Sindar and Noldor nobility.

It doesn't seem to be ugly racism ... but then some English colonial describing the natural order of things in India or an African colony would also not depict the rule of the British as an unnatural order nor the imagined racial and cultural inferiority of the colonized as something anyone (including the colonized) should have any issue with. It would be depicted as how things should be.

And that's also how Tolkien describes things in his own world. If we want to challenge that view in-universe we face considerable problems because we have, for instance, no idea how the Nandor felt about having to accept Galadriel and Celeborn as the rulers of Lórien or how popular the Sindar family of Thranduil was in Mirkwood.

[ASOIAFrelatedusername]

2 hours ago, Calibandar said:

"But as the theme progressed, it came into the heart of Melkor to interweave matters of his own imagining that were not in accord with the theme of Iluvatar; for he sought therein to increase the power and glory of the part assigned to himself."

If the showrunners are Melkor, then who is Jackson? My best guess would be Saruman.

[polishgenius]

I thought I was braced for this being a bit rubbish but just thinking about how much of a big ball of visual nothing that trailer is makes me genuinely annoyed. It's honestly just disrespectful. 

[ASOIAFrelatedusername]

We have some additional names:

Unimaginative

 

And her name is just wrong and it makes me seriously wonder if they EDIT gave a even a single shit

[Ser Drewy]

LOL

Elanor Nori Brandyfoot sounds like they put it into one of those LOTR name generators. 

[Werthead]

14 hours ago, Corvinus85 said:

Was it Numenor? Is the sun symbol Numenorean? Because Galadriel has that symbol on her armor. I think much more of the trailer was just Lindon.

The statue is apparently of Elros wielding his sword Aranruth, the Blade of Thingol. And flat-topped Meneltarma seals the deal: there is no comparable solitary mountain near the coast of Lindon, it'd be either flat or the continuous chain of the Blue Mountains would be visible.

Quote

 

But anyone who wants to tell me Galadriel was intended by Tolkien to be free climbing icy mountains while wearing armor is, at best, a comedian.

 

That'd be Galadriel, who crossed the Grinding Ice of the Helcaraxe under the leadership of Fingolfin with the Host of the Noldor, a journey that, depending on which version of Tolkien's elf-to-mortal-year date translation you accept, took 27 years at the lower end and 144 years at the upper? She does have form for this kind of thing.

Quote

Elanor Nori Brandyfoot sounds like they put it into one of those LOTR name generators

Yeah, that's a bit weird. Hobbit names are rendered in effective Westron but this early on they shouldn't be, they should be very different to their Shire-era names. I mean you can argue they're being magically translated into their equivalent of Westron, but it just feels off.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

14 minutes ago, Ser Drewy said:

LOL

Elanor Nori Brandyfoot sounds like they put it into one of those LOTR name generators. 

Not only that we’re seeing nomadic Hobbits living the wild.  Would they have three names just like they were living in the Shire and keeping careful track of all their relations because they have nothing better to do?

[Corvinus85]

31 minutes ago, ASOIAFrelatedusername said:

 

And her name is just wrong and it makes me seriously wonder if they EDIT gave a even a single shit

So she has a Sindar sounding first name, a Dwarvish sounding nickname and a randomized Hobbit name for her surname. WTF. Random name generator, indeed.

[SpaceChampion]

 

[Maltaran]

29 minutes ago, Corvinus85 said:

So she has a Sindar sounding first name, a Dwarvish sounding nickname and a randomized Hobbit name for her surname. WTF. Random name generator, indeed.

Elanor is a Hobbit name from the books, it's what Sam named his daughter

[ASOIAFrelatedusername]

10 minutes ago, Maltaran said:

Elanor is a Hobbit name from the books, it's what Sam named his daughter

It is the (Elvish) name of a flower from Lothlorien. It is not a normal Hobbit name.

[polishgenius]

12 minutes ago, Maltaran said:

Elanor is a Hobbit name from the books, it's what Sam named his daughter

 

It's a Hobbit name after Sam named his daughter that, like asoiafrelatedusername said after a flower in Lothlorien. 

[fionwe1987]

7 hours ago, Ser Drewy said:

ETA: I have to admit, 'Before the King' gave me a laugh as an awkward tagline. What king? Was there only one? 

Not to mention that there is a King/Queen, at this time, and a significant portion of the story will be set in said ruler's kingdom. 

[Ran]

41 minutes ago, Maltaran said:

Elanor is a Hobbit name from the books, it's what Sam named his daughter

Tolkien attempted to show evolution of language over time. The Hobbits in the late Third Age spoke Westron but retained some archaic words and names, echoes of the archaic Westron antecedent spoken by the Northmen in the Vales of Anduin and Rhovanion.

In the Second Age, Westron is even more archaic, even older than the "Gothic" form Tolkien depicted for the Northmen of Rhovanion in the early 1200-1300 period of the Third Age. The Harfoot names should probably be, similarly, even more archaic in form and style. As it stands, the given name should not be out of place in the Shire at the end of the Third Age.

Same goes with that precursor to the Northmen depicted in the character posters. His name should be proto-Germanic in form.

[Rhom]

Wouldn't a Hobbitish name of "Brandyfoot" imply proximity to the Brandywine River?  Which presumably they are not settled near yet?

[polishgenius]

13 minutes ago, Rhom said:

Wouldn't a Hobbitish name of "Brandyfoot" imply proximity to the Brandywine River?  Which presumably they are not settled near yet?

Yes, that's another problem.

[Ran]

Brandywine is a translation of the Westron Bralda-hîm, meaning "heady ale". That's want some precursor to TA Hobbit Westron, so... Basically, yeah, it makes no sense, but they clearly have made zero linguistic effort.

 

[Marsala]

1 hour ago, Maltaran said:

Elanor is a Hobbit name from the books, it's what Sam named his daughter

By that logic, Faramir is a Hobbit name from the books too.