LOTR series: a view of the Two Trees

[fionwe1987]

No, they do go to Mandos to rest their soul (fea), but get back into a body eventually. Glorfindel was allowed to come back to Middle Earth, after his death, which is what makes him unique.

 

Feanor’s mom, on the other hand, was so exhausted from birthing him she never wanted to come back, so she stayed in the Halls of Mandos, and her’s is closer to a true death.

 

This is all from memory, so someone should confirm.

[Slurktan]

2 hours ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

I had a fairly intense debate with a person in a Tolkien fan group on Facebook yesterday.  This person insists that because Elves have the possibility of resurrection (Glorfindel as an example) they do not “die”.  That they pop up in a new body in Valinor the moment their original body expires, anywhere.

That this means that all of the Teleri killed in the first kinslaying were back in Alqualondë right after the events of the Kinslaying.  That was never my understanding of the Elven life cycle.  I thought they died and were in the Halls of Mandos until Dagor Dagorlad with rare exceptions like Glorfindel.

They can come back when they want (Usually after their spirit heals) unless they've committed a crime then its spirit jail time.  Fëanor is one of those.  Miriel is a special case as she was so worn out by the birth that she takes no joy in the world.  Other weird thing from one of the history of ME books I believe is that Miriel wouldn't be allowed to come back to life even if she wanted to (provided Finwë is out) on a  technical loophole as Elves are only allowed to have one spouse.  As Finwë has his second wife she just wouldn't be allowed, which is of course terribly odd.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

3 minutes ago, Slurktan said:

They can come back when they want (Usually after their spirit heals) unless they've committed a crime then its spirit jail time.  Fëanor is one of those.  Miriel is a special case as she was so worn out by the birth that she takes no joy in the world.  Other weird thing from one of the history of ME books I believe is that Miriel wouldn't be allowed to come back to life even if she wanted to (provided Finwë is out) on a  technical loophole as Elves are only allowed to have one spouse.  As Finwë has his second wife she just wouldn't be allowed, which is of course terribly odd.

Hold on… so… by remarrying after Míriel died Finwë condemned his wife to eternity in Mandos?  It seems like there would be a huge taboo against remarriage after a spouse passes if that’s the case.

[Slurktan]

10 minutes ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

Hold on… so… by remarrying after Míriel died Finwë condemned his wife to eternity in Mandos?  It seems like there would be a huge taboo against remarriage after a spouse passes if that’s the case.

Yes and yes there is.  And while Finwë sort of forces the issue he went and talked to Miriel first or something and she was like "I'm not coming back ever dude, fuck off". I wish I could remember what book its from but that is essentially the point of why Elves only have one spouse.  I believe its noted as a big reason why Fëanor doesn't like his younger half brothers.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

Just now, Slurktan said:

Yes and yes there is.  I wish I could remember what book its from but that is essentially the point of why Elves only have one spouse.  I believe its noted as a big reason why Fëanor doesn't like his younger half brothers.

That’s because Fëanor is an asshole.  If he needs to be pissed at someone it should be Finwë.  He’s the one who remarried.

[Slurktan]

1 minute ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

That’s because Fëanor is an asshole.  If he needs to be pissed at someone it should be Finwë.  He’s the one who remarried.

Well yeah, Fëanor is always the asshole.  Hence why he is in spirit jail forever.  I still wish Christopher Tolkien had left the more gruesome version of Fëanor's Twins story in the Silmarillion.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

6 minutes ago, Slurktan said:

Well yeah, Fëanor is always the asshole.  Hence why he is in spirit jail forever.  I still wish Christopher Tolkien had left the more gruesome version of Fëanor's Twins story in the Silmarillion.

Eh?  Fëanor’s twins story?

[Slurktan]

Just now, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

Eh?  Fëanor’s twins story?

It's in Peoples of Middle Earth.  Essentially when Fëonor stole the swan ships he sails over and then burns them at Losgar.  But the story goes that Amras (I believe) slept in and was still on the ship as it was set aflame.  The other twin runs up to ol Dad and says "Did you make sure Amras got off as he slept in?" and Fëonor is like "Nah, what's done is done"

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

6 minutes ago, Slurktan said:

It's in Peoples of Middle Earth.  Essentially when Fëonor stole the swan ships he sails over and then burns them at Losgar.  But the story goes that Amras (I believe) slept in and was still on the ship as it was set aflame.  The other twin runs up to ol Dad and says "Did you make sure Amras got off as he slept in?" and Fëonor is like "Nah, what's done is done"

“Fëanor” Quenya for “unmitigated douchecanoe”.

[Werthead]

22 hours ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

That wouldn’t be the story of Beren and Luthien.

If you've only ever read Lord of the Rings, it would.

Worth reiterating that the number of people who have read LotR is somewhere around 200 million, the number who have watched the Jackson movies is around the same to a lot more, and the number of people who've read The Silmarillion and Unfinished Tales combined is well, well under 3 million, and even that's being generous. The number who've read a Wikipedia summary is probably more, but that's not the same as an actual story for people to get wedded to.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

25 minutes ago, Werthead said:

If you've only ever read Lord of the Rings, it would.

Worth reiterating that the number of people who have read LotR is somewhere around 200 million, the number who have watched the Jackson movies is around the same to a lot more, and the number of people who've read The Silmarillion and Unfinished Tales combined is well, well under 3 million, and even that's being generous. The number who've read a Wikipedia summary is probably more, but that's not the same as an actual story for people to get wedded to.

But that’s the story.  Anything else is a fanfic re-imagining.  

[Werthead]

21 minutes ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

But that’s the story.  Anything else is a fanfic re-imagining.  

Yup, and they've done it before (the LotR movies' fanfic re-imagining of the Gladden Fields, or Elrond and Isildur going into Mount Doom, or Arwen saving Frodo at the Fords of Bruinen) and would not hesitate to do it again.

However, they appear to now have the germane rights, so the point is moot for the time being.

[Derfel Cadarn]

7 hours ago, fionwe1987 said:

No, they do go to Mandos to rest their soul (fea), but get back into a body eventually. Glorfindel was allowed to come back to Middle Earth, after his death, which is what makes him unique.

 

Feanor’s mom, on the other hand, was so exhausted from birthing him she never wanted to come back, so she stayed in the Halls of Mandos, and her’s is closer to a true death.

 

This is all from memory, so someone should confirm.

Maybe Glorfindel was such a boring fucker they sent him back early?

Would explain why The Fellowship went with four near-useless hobbits instead of an elf-lord of great power.

[Corvinus85]

10 minutes ago, Derfel Cadarn said:

Maybe Glorfindel was such a boring fucker they sent him back early?

Would explain why The Fellowship went with four near-useless hobbits instead of an elf-lord of great power.

Glorfindel is Tolkien's Duncan Idaho. (technically the other way around)

[Lord Varys]

8 hours ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

I had a fairly intense debate with a person in a Tolkien fan group on Facebook yesterday.  This person insists that because Elves have the possibility of resurrection (Glorfindel as an example) they do not “die”.  That they pop up in a new body in Valinor the moment their original body expires, anywhere.

That this means that all of the Teleri killed in the first kinslaying were back in Alqualondë right after the events of the Kinslaying.  That was never my understanding of the Elven life cycle.  I thought they died and were in the Halls of Mandos until Dagor Dagorlad with rare exceptions like Glorfindel.

How exactly the reincarnation thing is supposed to work was never made *really clear*, but the best/most convincing concept is that grown-up Eldar are reincarnated after a time in purgatory Mandos while slain Elven children may be reborn in a new body. The idea of rebirth was also considered for some time for adult Elves.

But it is clear that they all come back eventually somehow. Finrod Felagund, for example, spent only a very brief time in Mandos and can be imagined as being reunited with his Amarie.

[Lord Varys]

6 hours ago, Slurktan said:

They can come back when they want (Usually after their spirit heals) unless they've committed a crime then its spirit jail time.  Fëanor is one of those.  Miriel is a special case as she was so worn out by the birth that she takes no joy in the world.  Other weird thing from one of the history of ME books I believe is that Miriel wouldn't be allowed to come back to life even if she wanted to (provided Finwë is out) on a  technical loophole as Elves are only allowed to have one spouse.  As Finwë has his second wife she just wouldn't be allowed, which is of course terribly odd.

No, it is Finwe who is not allowed to return, since Míriel eventually decides to return to her body. Finwe must then remain in Mandos until the end since Elven polygamy is, apparently, metaphysically unthinkable.

Míriel ends up working with Vaire, I think, and Finwe is occasionally allowed to watch the tapestries she weaves.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

2 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

No, it is Finwe who is not allowed to return, since Míriel eventually decides to return to her body. Finwe must then remain in Mandos until the end since Elven polygamy is, apparently, metaphysically unthinkable.

Míriel ends up working with Vaire, I think, and Finwe is occasionally allowed to watch the tapestries she weaves.

Is this from THoME?

[Lord Varys]

20 minutes ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

Is this from THoME?

Yes, from 'Laws and Customs among the Eldar' in Morgoth's Ring.

Míriel's desire to return to life is triggered by the family being reunited in Mandos after both Finwe and Feanor were slain.

And, strictly speaking, Finwe also decides to stay with his son who has sentenced to remain in Mandos until the Last Battle.

[fionwe1987]

9 hours ago, Slurktan said:

They can come back when they want (Usually after their spirit heals) unless they've committed a crime then its spirit jail time.  Fëanor is one of those.  Miriel is a special case as she was so worn out by the birth that she takes no joy in the world.  Other weird thing from one of the history of ME books I believe is that Miriel wouldn't be allowed to come back to life even if she wanted to (provided Finwë is out) on a  technical loophole as Elves are only allowed to have one spouse.  As Finwë has his second wife she just wouldn't be allowed, which is of course terribly odd.

So weird, either way. But it does make sense, then, why Elves also tend to not marry humans. I'm assuming the taboo against remarriage is strong enough that even though they can technically marry and elf, the concept of remarriage is stigmatized enough that marrying a human who will soon die is seen as a doom of eternal loneliness once they're gone.

4 hours ago, Derfel Cadarn said:

Maybe Glorfindel was such a boring fucker they sent him back early?

Would explain why The Fellowship went with four near-useless hobbits instead of an elf-lord of great power.

I think UT says he was sent back as a kind of proto-Istari.

Mind, all this is pretty clearly retcon/ideas scribbled in the margin because Tolkien didn't like two elves having the same name. 

[Slurktan]

On 8/5/2021 at 9:05 PM, fionwe1987 said:

So weird, either way. But it does make sense, then, why Elves also tend to not marry humans. I'm assuming the taboo against remarriage is strong enough that even though they can technically marry and elf, the concept of remarriage is stigmatized enough that marrying a human who will soon die is seen as a doom of eternal loneliness once they're gone.

I think UT says he was sent back as a kind of proto-Istari.

Mind, all this is pretty clearly retcon/ideas scribbled in the margin because Tolkien didn't like two elves having the same name. 

Peoples of Middle Earth is where the Glorfindel bit about him coming back is. 

 

On 8/5/2021 at 4:43 PM, Derfel Cadarn said:

Maybe Glorfindel was such a boring fucker they sent him back early?

Would explain why The Fellowship went with four near-useless hobbits instead of an elf-lord of great power.

Glorfindel isn't in the fellowship because Sauron would spot him coming easily and just throw everything at him.  Legolas is not an elf of power despite what the films would have you believe.