Did Robert Baratheon make his brothers more powerful than any previous Targaryen prince without a dragon?

[The Merling King]

Did any post-dragon Targaryen prince have the power to contest the succession like Stannis and Renly Baratheon did or were none of the past princes as empowered as the Baratheon bros?

Obviously a dragon grants you more power than a lordship and dragon riders like prince Maegor, the rogue prince Daemon, the Hightower-Targaryens and the Velaryon-Targaryens could/would contest sussesion but what about Targaryens post dance.

Stannis showed off the limited resources of Dragonstone and I assume Summerhall had similar resources, wealth and manpower?

[Lord Varys]

Robert made his brothers more powerful than any other Targaryen king before him. Dragons or not, most siblings of Targaryen kings weren't lords in their own right. The sole exception is Queen Rhaena who was given Dragonstone by Jaehaerys I. Aside from that, only the anointed heirs of Targaryen kings were given their own lordship and seat with Dragonstone.

Daeron II created another Targaryen lordship with Summerhall which he gave to his youngest son Maekar, but we don't know how much land and wealth was attached to the castle.

Robert made both his brothers great lords in their own right.

[Canon Claude]

Maekar was pretty powerful. He had his own castle, he had high military command, he won a major victory alongside his brother. I’d say that he had an equal amount of power to Stannis (who didn’t have much power at all, to be fair). But that’s all to be expected given that Maekar is basically a ripoff of Stannis.

[Lord Lannister]

Other than command of the Royal Fleet and Melisandre, Stannis really didn't have much going for him. Renly's power came from the Stormlands and his ability to forge alliances. The same power that Robert used to overthrow the Targaryens.

[YoungGriffonis]

I think that even more than the actual lands, Robert made his brothers a danger through the precedent he set in the rebellion, making anyone with an army and some blood relationship to the King a potential King as well, something that Renly used in his attempt to usurp the Throne. It should be kept in mind that it was so bad that Tywin expected both Renly and Stannis to rebel without even knowing of the twincest.

[StarksInTheNorth]

EDIT: I failed today's reading comprehension test apparently. Leaving my original answer as a testament to my shame. Post-dragons, there was the Blackfyre Rebellion as discussed below. Probably one of Daeron's sons or grandsons could have if they wanted. But no one wanted to as during that era Targaryen infighting would've led to a Blackfyre king. There was the Great Council of 233 after Maekar's death, where there were several contenders of various ages. If Aerion had lived, he would have been a contender but his madness may have led to a Great Council anyway.

--  

There's examples where they had the power to contest the succession, and where they did contest it. The examples we know the most of are Maegor, the Dance of Dragons, and Blackfyre Rebellions.

King Maegor - Even before Maegor claimed to be king, Aenys made Maegor Prince of Dragonstone after Aegon I died. Maegor also claimed their father's dragon, Balerion the Black Dread. Aenys also gave Maegor the sword Blackfyre, which had been wielded by their father, even though Maegor was already wielding Visenya's Dark Sister. Finally, he made Maegor his Hand and considered him a close advisor until Maegor was exiled for taking a second wife. Maegor had all the symbols of a Targaryen king, except a crown and the Iron Throne. Their ancestral seat, the greatest dragon, both swords, and the political power. Notably he   claim his seat until after Aenys' death, likely because Aenys was the uncontested ruler. But there was already lots of dislike for Aegon the Uncrowned, Aenys' son, because of his incestual marriage with his sister.

The Dance of Dragons - During the Dance, Rhaenyra had the ancestral seat as Princess of Dragonstone and her husband-uncle wielded Dark Sister. She was also the acclaimed heir of the previous king, Viserys I. In comparison, her brother Aegon II wore the crown of Aegon I, controlled the capital and Iron Throne, and one of his allies was their brother Aemond, who flew Vhagar, the oldest living dragon originally flown in the conquest by Queen Visenya. The contesting there led to the dance, and that ended in the death of the dragons and the near-destruction of their House.

Blackfyre Rebellions - Finally, the Blackfyre Rebellions were also caused by someone who believed he had the power to contest the succession. Whether Daemon actually had the power to contest it is a question for F&B vol. 2. But he was legitimized from his father's deathbed, openly acknowledged as the son and preferred heir of Aegon IV, and carried Blackfyre, the sword usually given to the preferred heir.

It's also worth looking at the various claims put forward at the various Great Councils. In fact, Catelyn even suggested calling a Great Council at Harrenhal to resolve the issue of Renly v. Stannis. Notably, though, Stannis was claiming the throne as a matter of right while Renly was clear he cared only about matter of conquest and strength. So either way, they were going to have conflict because someone (the Tyrells) put it into Renly's puffed-up ego that he should be a king. 

[The Commentator]

4 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Robert made his brothers more powerful than any other Targaryen king before him. Dragons or not, most siblings of Targaryen kings weren't lords in their own right. The sole exception is Queen Rhaena who was given Dragonstone by Jaehaerys I. Aside from that, only the anointed heirs of Targaryen kings were given their own lordship and seat with Dragonstone.

Daeron II created another Targaryen lordship with Summerhall which he gave to his youngest son Maekar, but we don't know how much land and wealth was attached to the castle.

Robert made both his brothers great lords in their own right.

It could be argued that Stannis deserved it for helping put Robert on the throne.  

[Lord Varys]

3 hours ago, Canon Claude said:

Maekar was pretty powerful. He had his own castle, he had high military command, he won a major victory alongside his brother. I’d say that he had an equal amount of power to Stannis (who didn’t have much power at all, to be fair). But that’s all to be expected given that Maekar is basically a ripoff of Stannis.

Dragonstone comes with bannermen of its own ... but we don't know if anyone of note was ever sworn to Summerhall. Yes, it was a pretty big castle and Maekar certainly was a lord in his own right rather than a landless prince. But it isn't clear whether was a powerful lord in his own right.

3 hours ago, Lord Lannister said:

Other than command of the Royal Fleet and Melisandre, Stannis really didn't have much going for him. Renly's power came from the Stormlands and his ability to forge alliances. The same power that Robert used to overthrow the Targaryens.

Renly clearly is the more powerful brother of Robert, of course. But Stannis also has his own lordship and sufficient resources to make a bid for the throne. If he had just been a landless knight he would have never been able to set himself up as a pretender the way he did. And neither would Renly, of course, alhough his charisma may have allowed him to make powerful alliances.

3 hours ago, YoungGriffonis said:

I think that even more than the actual lands, Robert made his brothers a danger through the precedent he set in the rebellion, making anyone with an army and some blood relationship to the King a potential King as well, something that Renly used in his attempt to usurp the Throne. It should be kept in mind that it was so bad that Tywin expected both Renly and Stannis to rebel without even knowing of the twincest.

Yeah, Robert put his brothers into a position from which they could try to usurp power in the same or a similar manner as he did. Robert's Rebellion shows the danger coming with marrying high nobility outside the family, but Robert's brothers show how dangerous it is if a king makes his brothers great lords.

3 hours ago, StarksInTheNorth said:

King Maegor - Even before Maegor claimed to be king, Aenys made Maegor Prince of Dragonstone after Aegon I died. Maegor also claimed their father's dragon, Balerion the Black Dread. Aenys also gave Maegor the sword Blackfyre, which had been wielded by their father, even though Maegor was already wielding Visenya's Dark Sister. Finally, he made Maegor his Hand and considered him a close advisor until Maegor was exiled for taking a second wife. Maegor had all the symbols of a Targaryen king, except a crown and the Iron Throne. Their ancestral seat, the greatest dragon, both swords, and the political power. Notably he   claim his seat until after Aenys' death, likely because Aenys was the uncontested ruler. But there was already lots of dislike for Aegon the Uncrowned, Aenys' son, because of his incestual marriage with his sister.

Maegor was never made Prince of Dragonstone. Maegor was dubbed 'Prince of Dragonstone' by the people because he spent most of his childhood and youth there with Visenya, while Aenys accompanied Aegon on the royal progresses. Prince of Dragonstone only became a proper title of sorts with a lordship attached when King Aenys named his son and heir, Aegon, Prince of Dragonstone in 41 AC. That grant may have involved Aenys also handing the castle to his son ... but even that's unclear, considering that Dragonstone was basically the royal castle and residence while the Red Keep was built.

During the Conqueror's reign Dragonstone was also a second royal castle.

It was during the reign of Jaehaerys I that Dragonstone became more or less a proper lordship - first, when Jaehaerys I gave it to Rhaena and then later when he gave it to his three anointed heirs in turn (Aemon, Baelon, and Viserys).

But even then - the king and queen always had access to Dragonstone. Aemon being the Prince of Dragonstone didn't stop Queen Alysanne to give birth to her children there or to retire to Dragonstone in old age when Baelon technically was Prince of Dragonstone.

[The Merling King]

Also because of the immortal family lines of the great houses and the importance of last names in Westeros, it would be hard for someone to become as powerful as say John of Gaunt or even Stephen of Blois, who were of royal blood but got most of there power by marrying a female heiress with wealthy lands and important titles.

Its debatable if King Jaehaerys was trying to do this with prince Daemon by marrying him off to Rhea Royce but I assume that if they had any children they would take the Royce name like Joffrey Lynden took the Lannister name. I’m also surprised Alicent Hightower did not try to get a Baratheon marriage earlier for one of her sons in the hopes that Borros would not end up having a male heir and they inherit Stormsend either as lord or consort to the lady.

But in general this doesn’t seem possible or very common in Westeros, at least up until recently with Tommen Baratheon having a claim to Kingslanding, Dragonstone, Stormsend and Casterly Rock but he will most likely not live long enough to grant these appendages to any children or favorites. Another recent example would be the Lannister’s taking over Darry and Hayford through marriage to female heirs but going against tradition and using the husbands name to replace the attainted or near extinct name of the female heiress.
Also the Frey and Tyrells seem to be using there names to lay claim to the ancestral homes of the attainted Tully’s and Florents.

Its interesting that after surviving uninterrupted for several millennia, that so many families seem to be dying out during the war of the five kings and leaving lands and lordships ripe for the taking but there is no mention of this occurring during or after the Conquest, the Dance or Blackfyre rebellions except for the cursed Harrenhal and the Peakes loosing two or there three castles.

 

[James Steller]

7 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Dragonstone comes with bannermen of its own ... but we don't know if anyone of note was ever sworn to Summerhall. Yes, it was a pretty big castle and Maekar certainly was a lord in his own right rather than a landless prince. But it isn't clear whether was a powerful lord in his own right.

 

A castle the size of Summerhall needs to be supported. Harrenhal still has enough land that noble families can maintain some level of luxury in it, or else what would be the point of living there? 

And Maekar was put in command of an army made up of various different regions of Westeros. Sure, he's a Targaryen, but House Targaryen didn't necessarily lead all their armies during time of war. House Tyrell led armies into Dorne, and not just their own bannermen, they also commanded various other houses (we know that House Stark lost a member of their family fighting in Dorne). House Reyne took command of the army fighting in the Stepstones, and they weren't even Wardens or a paramount house. 

My point is that that Maekar would need more than just his name to be respected by so many lords who would have at least had precedent to take command themselves. One solitary castle wouldn't be enough to do it; Maekar would have needed some established land and household troops of his own. Otherwise the destruction of Summerhall wouldn't be as horrific as it so clearly was. It's basically the opening of Pandora's Box, even as Rhaegar is presumably the little spark of hope which will bring us the Princes Who Were Promised.

[frenin]

16 hours ago, The Merling King said:

Did any post-dragon Targaryen prince have the power to contest the succession like Stannis and Renly Baratheon did or were none of the past princes as empowered as the Baratheon bros?

Yes, Maekar comes to mind. 

It's never about power anyway, it's about influence and his you assert it. 

We know little about the reign of Aegon 5, we know what the bastards of the Unworthy pulled so there's that and the Young Dragon's successors were pretty tame yet the still sidelined the women.

Didn't Daeron the good said that "Too many dragons is as dangerous as too few"?? There's that.

 

 

 

14 hours ago, YoungGriffonis said:

I think that even more than the actual lands, Robert made his brothers a danger through the precedent he set in the rebellion, making anyone with an army and some blood relationship to the King a potential King as well, something that Renly used in his attempt to usurp the Throne. It should be kept in mind that it was so bad that Tywin expected both Renly and Stannis to rebel without even knowing of the twincest.

Well, they didn't not get along, and as Renly made clear, he was not having a Lannister controlled regime.

 

 

10 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Renly clearly is the more powerful brother of Robert, of course. But Stannis also has his own lordship and sufficient resources to make a bid for the throne. If he had just been a landless knight he would have never been able to set himself up as a pretender the way he did. And neither would Renly, of course, alhough his charisma may have allowed him to make powerful alliances.

His resources to make a bid for the Throne is his claim and Melisandre.

[Lord Varys]

6 hours ago, James Steller said:

A castle the size of Summerhall needs to be supported. Harrenhal still has enough land that noble families can maintain some level of luxury in it, or else what would be the point of living there?

Of course, but Harrenhal was originally created as a royal seat. Harren the Black would have granted himself the largest lands in all the Riverlands, not just to support his his gigantic castle but also to hammer home the fact that he was the king. The size of the lands was reduced later, but Harrenhal never became a small lordship.

Summerhall was built as a summer seat of the royal family, it was, originally, not conceived as a lordship. I guess it might be that Daeron II decided to turn it into a proper lordship when he gave the castle to Maekar as a hereditary seat considering that, after the First Blackfyre Rebellion, he could have taken considerable tracts of lands from the exiles and traitors in the region.

But so far we have no indication that Summerhall was a major lordship, say, ruling over all the Marcher Lords in the Reach and the Stormlands. Instead, the prominence of Summerhall seems to be the prominence of Maekar - which makes sense, considering he is the son and brother of a king and an experienced general and a warrior of note.

6 hours ago, James Steller said:

And Maekar was put in command of an army made up of various different regions of Westeros. Sure, he's a Targaryen, but House Targaryen didn't necessarily lead all their armies during time of war. House Tyrell led armies into Dorne, and not just their own bannermen, they also commanded various other houses (we know that House Stark lost a member of their family fighting in Dorne). House Reyne took command of the army fighting in the Stepstones, and they weren't even Wardens or a paramount house.

Daeron II himself wasn't a martial man, explaining why his sons had to step forth during the war, just like Rhaegar took over for his father during the Rebellion.

Maekar's authority in the Realm comes, in part at least, from his war background. The other background is the fact that he is a royal prince.

Aerys and Rhaegel - Daeron's non-martial sons - are less respected because they are no warriors.

6 hours ago, James Steller said:

My point is that that Maekar would need more than just his name to be respected by so many lords who would have at least had precedent to take command themselves. One solitary castle wouldn't be enough to do it; Maekar would have needed some established land and household troops of his own. Otherwise the destruction of Summerhall wouldn't be as horrific as it so clearly was. It's basically the opening of Pandora's Box, even as Rhaegar is presumably the little spark of hope which will bring us the Princes Who Were Promised.

I'm not saying that Summerhall must have been a very minor lordship, but so far we don't know how large it was.

Maekar does have retainers and household knights at Summerhall, of course. And he has the name and the authority to raise armies because the lords in the vicinity would not resist the demands of a royal prince like him.

That said, we don't know whether Maekar's wealth came from the incomes he had as Prince of Summerhall or from whatever allowance he was given from the royal treasury.

I mean, most Targaryen princes weren't lords in their own right, didn't have lands or titles of their own, and yet they still had sufficent money to buy themselves extravagant stuff. That implies that their royal fathers and brothers gave them all generous allowances.

[Lord Varys]

4 hours ago, frenin said:

His resources to make a bid for the Throne is his claim and Melisandre.

He would have never had Mel if he hadn't been Lord of Dragonstone. Mel thinks, in part, that he is the savior because he rules the island.

But still - Stannis as a landless household knight would have had no power basis of his own, no seat where he could prepare his campaign.

[mormont]

2 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

But still - Stannis as a landless household knight would have had no power basis of his own, no seat where he could prepare his campaign.

He'd surely have found somewhere to do that - all he needs is lands, those of an ally would do, Of course, Stannis lacks many allies but that's more a function of his personality than anything else.

 

[Endymion I Targaryen]

F&B vol 2 is not out yet to know the exact power of the seat of Summerhal or the connection with house Baratheon. From what we know it was a minor summer castle and royal residence not a great castle like the Red Keep. Problably the lord of Summerhal could not raise a great army. So i guess Robert having  a brother who is lord of Storms End is better. About Stannis lordship of Dragonstone, we see that it not that much great anymore. Dragonstone has no dragons anymore and the Targaryen fleet (mostly Velaryon fleet) was destroyed in the storm during Daenerys's birth. But still Baratheon kings have more powerful kin than post dragon Targaryen kings. 

[PrettyLittlePsycho]

Well, Robert was the first king who had significant lands of his own to start with. The Targs came from Essos and didn´t have much more than KL and Dragonstone.

So Robert had more to govern than any Targ before and it was only natural that he would share with his brothers. After all he wasn´t even interested in governing KL.

[Hrulj]

Renly broke every custom of Westeros when he betrayed his brother and declared himself king. On top of that what is the odds that king is cuckolded, his children false, his brothers know it, he himself is killed or died in the hunt before he could know, that the child that inherits is mad and sadistic, that it’s mother is double mad etc. 

 

Giving his brothers lands would ensure Baratheon power hold not just on crown lands but stormlands and narrow sea as well. It would also ensure several family lines that would exist to ensure family from extinction. The fact it didn’t work out is due to need for story. Not much to tell otherwise. 

[frenin]

3 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

He would have never had Mel if he hadn't been Lord of Dragonstone. Mel thinks, in part, that he is the savior because he rules the island.

But still - Stannis as a landless household knight would have had no power basis of his own, no seat where he could prepare his campaign.

Maekar would have had the same power basis. And given that people seemed sure that Rhaegel would never succeed Aerys, he had a decent chance there.

And dragonlords found allies fairly easy... cause dragons too. Hence the Great Council. Nor the Blackfyres needed much to be a pain in the ass.

[YoungGriffonis]

@Hrulj, Renly was a traitorous scumbag and child groomer out to make himself King out of some vainglorious belief he deserved the position. The only thing he ever deserved was the shadow baby.

[Lord Varys]

1 hour ago, mormont said:

He'd surely have found somewhere to do that - all he needs is lands, those of an ally would do, Of course, Stannis lacks many allies but that's more a function of his personality than anything else.

As Lord of Dragonstone Stannis had his own seat and a bunch of bannermen sworn to him directly. They are the foundation of his entire campaign.

Yes, if Stannis had made a good match or made powerful friends he may have also been able to launch a campaign for the throne. But he would have been dependent on the goodwill of those friends and in-laws whereas Lord Stannis had his own powerbase independent of whatever support friends and allies and relatives gave him.

Also, you have to keep in mind that a landless Stannis wouldn't have had a seat of his own, i.e. he would have been one of Robert's household knights. As such a person he wouldn't have been able to retreat to his own seat and prepare his campaign. Instead he would have likely been stuck at court, meaning the Lannisters would have dealt with him rather quickly.

35 minutes ago, frenin said:

Maekar would have had the same power basis. And given that people seemed sure that Rhaegel would never succeed Aerys, he had a decent chance there.

Stannis had an actual powerbase at Dragonstone. The idea that Summerhall came with the same or a similar number of bannermen and retainers is, at this point, not clear. Dragonstone is considered a great seat ... nobody ever said that Summerhall was an equally great seat. Could be, but there is no confirmation as of yet.

35 minutes ago, frenin said:

And dragonlords found allies fairly easy... cause dragons too. Hence the Great Council. Nor the Blackfyres needed much to be a pain in the ass.

Daemon Blackfyre was the greatest knight of the Realm, had a lot charisma and armies of friends ... that isn't the case for either Maekar or Stannis. Daemon Blackfyre also was made a landed knight and given the right to build a seat somewhere along the Blackwater. We don't know if he ever did that, but if he did he would at least have had his own seat.