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YoungGriffonis

New user, hints on rules and general opinions?

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Hi, new guy here! Just joined, and this looks like a really cool forum. So with that said, I was curious, what are the general rules to keep in mind, and the general opinions this forum adheres to about ASOIAF?

I've searched for any rules, and can't seem to find them, as for general universal opinions, I'm curious what those are to better adapt myself. I myself don't really hold any strong opinions about ASOIAF other than the fact that I really love Bluegon (or Young Griff), really like Catelyn and despise Tyrion and Rhaegar.

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Rhaegar? Why would you despise the prince? What little we know about him is coming from the rebels.  Lyanna was more likely than not to have already been pregnant when she went missing. The prince foolishly went all chivalrous and took her under his protection.  

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Welcome to the forum! There are some rules tucked away somewhere, but most people never find them, so basically, be kind, and don't use the show in your arguments. (We argue about absolutely everything.)

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Chivalrous is... a word, I guess, one that genuinely makes me sick in the context.

Like look at the facts objectively. I do agree Rhaegar is seen through a lot of bias from the POVs, be it negative (mostly Robert) or positive (Jaime, Cersie, Barristan and especially Griff), but here's what we know objectively. We know that at their first recorded interaction, Rhaegar openly shunned his at the time pregnant wife to crown Lyanna. That's like a dick move to start off with, but it also shows a clear creepy intent, especially considering the ages at the time.

Now fast forward to them... let's call it going away together for now, and we already have a clearly emotionally vulnerable (given the Robert stuff) 15 year old running together with a 23 year old. Now if that wasn't bad enough, in doing so, the creature also leaves his wife and kids at the hands of his insane father and starts off a war.

And finally we get to the ToJ, and him impregnating said teen, (God, it's disgusting to even talk about), all the while holding her thousands of miles away from home, in a place which she can't leave, surrounded by people loyal to him. Now, presuming by some stretch it wasn't all out rape from moment one, you can bet your ass it was once she heard about Rickard and Brandon. And if you tell me that Rhaegar maybe didn't tell her, sure, that maybe happened, but it still makes him a horrid human being who groomed and isolated a teenager, starting a war in the process and leading to the deaths of his wife and one of his kids, as well as the death of said teenager, which after impregnating he left alone in the desert with no medical help.

That's sickening.

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Posted (edited)

The big one is keep the show on the show forum. Even speculation on how the books will go based on the show has to go over there... even if half the users over there don't read the books.

Edited by Lord Lannister

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Rules:

1) To touch the light, you must pass beneath the shadow.

2) The man who passes the sentence should swing the sword. 

3) Words won't make your mother a whore. 

4) You will marry and you will breed.

5) You must choose. Take the sword and slay the Kingslayer, or be hanged for a betrayer. The sword or the noose.

 

This is the way it is, and you're here for life, same as the rest of us.

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Posted (edited)
3 hours ago, YoungGriffonis said:

Hi, new guy here! Just joined, and this looks like a really cool forum. So with that said, I was curious, what are the general rules to keep in mind, and the general opinions this forum adheres to about ASOIAF?

I've searched for any rules, and can't seem to find them, as for general universal opinions, I'm curious what those are to better adapt myself. I myself don't really hold any strong opinions about ASOIAF other than the fact that I really love Bluegon (or Young Griff), really like Catelyn and despise Tyrion and Rhaegar.

Good to have you!

@Springwatch is right, we argue about everything. otherwise... A tin foil hat is always helpful. Young Griff is most often called fAegon on the forum (because we argue about his real identity a lot). A splash of moral relativism is always useful given the variety of options and cultures depicted in Asoiaf, but also among the users. Having said that, your morals and option are your own, and they are valid so don't let anyone make you feel dumb for having them. keep personal info to yourself and don't pry into other peoples real identity. A man is no one!

Regarding Rhaegar, here is some interesting things that may or not mitigate your hate:

First and foremost regarding what happened at the tourney at harrenhal. this is debated with users like @LynnS really not agreeing, but some fans think Lyanna was the Knight of the Laughing tree. The KoLT was a mystery knight who entered the tournament for a day to unhorse three knights whose squires bullied Howland Reed. after shaming the knights and gaining revenge for Howland, they disappeared, with Rhaegar amongst the others who sought them out. its theorized that Rhaegar discover it was Lyanna, and impressed by her, named her the queen of love and beauty (so the relationship was initially formed not out of lust). He gave her a blue Laurel crown made of blue winter roses, the same as the type Bael the Bard left for his stark bride.

A while later (and mind you in Westerosi cultural it is acceptable to lay with a woman/marry them as soon as they have had their first period.) Rhaegar later stole Lyanna in the wildling fashion. Whether he raped her or married her, its hard to say. the king was unable to connect him for a while after that, so who knows how much communication was coming through. 

Having said all that, do you also hate ygritte for coercing Jon into breaking his vow of Chasity. he was 15 and she least like 19. 

And I can guess, but why do you hate Tyrion?

Edited by Targaryeninkingslanding

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7 minutes ago, Targaryeninkingslanding said:

First and foremost regarding what happened at the tourney at harrenhal. this is debated with users like @LynnS really not agreeing, but some fans think Lyanna was the Knight of the Laughing tree.

I'm not the only person here who questions theories about Lyanna and Rhaegar.   People should keep asking questions even if you think you know the answer.  Most of my theories come with the Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle attached.  In other words, I revise almost constantly.  Rarely do I stand my ground on a particular theory.  The Knight of the Laughing Tree is one instance where I do.

As Martin said recently in a speech;  Just give me the facts and I can figure it out myself.   

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3 minutes ago, LynnS said:

I'm not the only person here who questions theories about Lyanna and Rhaegar.   People should keep asking questions even if you think you know the answer.  Most of my theories come with the Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle attached.  In other words, I revise almost constantly.  Rarely do I stand my ground on a particular theory.  The Knight of the Laughing Tree is one instance where I do.

As Martin said recently in a speech;  Just give me the facts and I can figure it out myself.   

haha yeah sorry. you were just my example because you wrote the most recent popular post in which an alternate theory was discussed. @YoungGriffonis If you have the time its worth a look though and a lot of users contributed to the conversation.

 

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1 minute ago, Targaryeninkingslanding said:

haha yeah sorry. you were just my example because you wrote the most recent popular post in which an alternate theory was discussed. @YoungGriffonis If you have the time its worth a look though and a lot of users contributed to the conversation.

Oh LOL!  Popularity doesn't equate to agreement, but certainly curious minds want to know or at least hear something different. And I did go on twitter the next day and tell GRRM it was solved.  I also told him he was a clever bastard.  At least that's different from the usual posts on his twitter account.  In my mind, it's solved. In everyone else's mind.... not so much.  ;)

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If you hold unpopular opinions, people will gang up on you.  Unless your unpopular opinions are stupid, in which case they will only laugh at you.  

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@Targaryeninkingslanding I actually do agree that Lyanna was almost definitely the Knight of the Laughing Tree given the story Meera tells Bran, however, with that said, it doesn't really make it better, now does it? Lust or admiration, it's still a 23 year old married man with a pregnant wife courting (though the better term I think is grooming) an emotionally vulnerable 15 year old.

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Posted (edited)

Comment moved to Knight of the Laughing Tree thread. 

 

 

Edited by LynnS

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Posted (edited)
11 hours ago, YoungGriffonis said:

@Targaryeninkingslanding I actually do agree that Lyanna was almost definitely the Knight of the Laughing Tree given the story Meera tells Bran, however, with that said, it doesn't really make it better, now does it? Lust or admiration, it's still a 23 year old married man with a pregnant wife courting (though the better term I think is grooming) an emotionally vulnerable 15 year old.

on the contrary it makes it an entirely different situation. if it as like you said, and the crown was courting than sure we can sum up rheagar as just a creep after a kid, but if instead the crown was given out of recognition out of doing something admirable, than sexual attraction as a motivation is not necessitated. to call it courting at that point if this is the case would be more than presumptuous, and to call it grooming would be a far overreach.

you must also consider the world the story takes place in. not only is Lyanna considered an adult fit to marry by that point in time within the laws and customs of Westeros (as shown by her betrothal to Robert), but conceptually something like grooming probably does not exist. not to say it doesn't happen, but lacking a word makes it conceptually more difficult to understand. If it is not understood how can it be taught that it is wrong? If she is old enough to marry Robert, she is also old enough to run away with someone else. All that to say, to judge someone based on a standard that does not exist even conceptually in their world is pointless. we may agree or disagree with those action by our own contemporary moral standers, but to apply your own moral standers to a work were they do not exist is a sure fire way to misunderstand and mischaracterize. It is far better to judge a character based on the morals of their own world.

Some even theorize that Rheagar would never have run away with Lyanna if his own wife had not become barren after a difficult pregnancy. he believed his own children to be the prince that was promised, but he dragon has three heads and so he needed a third child. if R+L+J (the on site short hand for if rheagar and lyanna equal Jon) and Jon is indeed the prince that was promised (or at least one of the heads of the dragon) than the relationship you scorn is still nevertheless responsible for birthing a savior of the world.

Another cluster of people in the forum will tell you that the kidnapping was more theatrically orchestrated than legitimate. some will claim that it was done to give the north pretext to challenge the crown as a method of ultimately removing Aerys; a plan foiled when Aerys murdered both Bran in Rickard.

Edited by Targaryeninkingslanding

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On 8/5/2021 at 7:31 PM, Mister Smikes said:

If you hold unpopular opinions, people will gang up on you.  Unless your unpopular opinions are stupid, in which case they will only laugh at you.  

Popularity isn't a function of the facts.  It's a function of the group.  If you want to be included and avoid landmines, you need to know what is popular with the group.  Otherwise you might be ostracized and start off on the wrong foot.  I'm in my sixties, so I don't care about that stuff.  But younger people do care about it. 

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, LynnS said:

Popularity isn't a function of the facts. 

Popularity is a function of many things, sometimes even including facts, since people sometimes listen to facts.

But yes, popularity has no necessary connection to facts.  Otherwise there would be no relevance to the distinction I drew.  To restate it, if your unpopular opinion has no factual basis, people will just laugh at you or ignore you.  If your unpopular opinions DO have a factual basis, they will find other ways to attack you, or shut you up, or shut you down.  People start to get angry when they get afraid you might succeed in convincing others.

Quote

It's a function of the group.  If you want to be included and avoid landmines, you need to know what is popular with the group.  Otherwise you might be ostracized and start off on the wrong foot. 

I guess it depends on if the OP wants to be popular. 

Personally, I would prefer that posters express their own opinions, be flexible, admit when they are wrong, but do not allow themselves to be bullied.  Don't expect others to be fair.

Quote

I'm in my sixties, so I don't care about that stuff.  But younger people do care about it. 

Sure, but I'd rather advise young people not to be lemmings if they can.  Popularity on this forum has no necessary connection to anything.  It may not even translate to popularity anywhere else other than this forum.

Edited by Mister Smikes

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10 minutes ago, Mister Smikes said:

Sure, but I'd rather advise young people not to be lemmings if they can.  Popularity on this forum has no necessary connection to anything.  It may not even translate to popularity anywhere else other than this forum.

I don't disagree with anything you have said.

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There is an FAQ at the top of the Help Board.

Advice? I guess learn how to use the spoiler quotes before Winds of Winter is released. And don't  say anything personal or derogatory about GRRM or his writing speed (but you can go nuts on his characters, plot holes,  themes, stylistic choices etc any time you like). It goes without saying we all need Winds to be released now, and yet it is frequently said.

My own opinion is that you should back up your arguments with direct quotes from the books (or the speaking engagement/interview/blog post). Or at least, you should be able to.

Also on direct quotes, you can select just the bit of someone else's post you are responding to. You don't need to quote the whole post, especially when it is all there just above your own post in the same thread.  Just be careful not to take a quote from someone who was quoting someone else - especially as it is most likely they quoted that specific point to disagree with it (I have misattributed this way accidentally, it's easily done). 

It is courteous to answer or at least acknowledge the OP in some way, even if you are more interested in responding to other posts in the thread.

When confronted with a perspective that seems to be from a different set of books to the ones I read, or a poster that seems to be outraged by something that seems uncontroversial to me, I nowadays tend to go to their profile and check out the sort of things they post generally before I marshal my quotes to defend Jon Snow or the Mother of Dragons.

Some people are not so much trolls as intensely invested in protecting characters like Ramsey Bolton from the calumnies heaped upon them by plot-armoured points of view. Others are not haters at all, but have carefully constructed and very well thought through theories and it can be very confronting for them when someone cavalierly suggests that fAegon isn't a Blackfyre, or claims the books don't tell us whether Robb or Jon is the oldest.

When I go to someone's profile and see they have been fighting the good fight for their character or theory for years, and others have already expressed the points I would have raised, in better language, to no effect, it helps me to go easy on them. Also, being nearly as old as Ser Barristan, I don't necessarily want to joust against someone as fiery as Dany, however sure of the righteousness of my cause I may be.

If someone is getting under your skin for no real reason, you can try putting them on your ignore list rather than responding to them. I have never had to do this, but it is good to know the function is there if I need it.

In my experience, the posters on this forum are some of the most forebearing and civil and good-natured people on the internet. That might be because people who take so much pleasure in the Song of Ice and Fire can appreciate nuance, complexity, symbols and subtext. It might also be because the mods here are very strict on trolls and abusers - zero tolerance of personal attacks and no second chances, ever.

As you can see, R+L=J is so popular and influential, it has a pinned perpetual thread. Both the small questions thread and the compendium of theories (in the spoiler tags, in the OP) are also worth a browse.

There are many matters, great and small, that GRRM intended us to notice and interrogate. Far more than any single fan could pick up in a half-dozen close readings. But together, we stand a chance of understanding and appreciating Patchface's prophecies, Sybell Westerling's potions, the significance of various fruits, and Sansa's cloaks. 

Being challenged on your impressions of Rhaegar is not such a bad thing. You can see where the other poster went wrong or missed the point. Occasionally, you can't and are forced to re-examine and refine your view. It is all for the good. If it does nothing else, reading and writing posts helps you keep the characters and timelines fresh in your mind, ready to face the rigors of the Winds of Winter.

Even the most popular opinions are contested here, and even BoltOn and Daario= theories have some supporters here. So welcome home!

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The greatest thing to happen in my life, losing my virginity? Nope. Finding that half eaten egg salad sandwich in the break room? Close but no. Discovering this:

https://asearchoficeandfire.com/?q=bloody+blue&scope[]=agot&scope[]=adwd&scope[]=acok&scope[]=twoiaf&scope[]=asos&scope[]=affc

It really upped my game. (See what I did there? Wakka wakka)

I’m also interested in your dislike of Tyrion. I’m objective and hold no opinions. I love any thoughts that spark imagination no matter what they may be. I just enjoy others view points on characters.

Any questions feel free to private message if ya don’t wanna post

Edited by Fool Stands On Giant’s Toe

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