Littlefinger's Plan

[chrisdaw]

These are all the wrong questions.

As their arcs require, Jon will leave the NW, Arya the FM, Bran BR's influence and Sansa Petyr's control. Petyr is about to get fucked up, his plan forgotten, and Sansa's and Tyrion's marriage isn't going anywhere, it is a core component of their character arcs and is coming front and centre to King's Landing.

Many of you have a problem, you've fallen in love with a character at the beginning of a character arc. They're going to change on you, and in some cases it'll be a 180 about face.

[Mister Smikes]

Everything is proceeding in accordance to his Evil Plan.  Have faith, and don't trouble your little heads about it.

[Nevets]

2 hours ago, chrisdaw said:

These are all the wrong questions.

As their arcs require, Jon will leave the NW, Arya the FM, Bran BR's influence and Sansa Petyr's control. Petyr is about to get fucked up, his plan forgotten, and Sansa's and Tyrion's marriage isn't going anywhere, it is a core component of their character arcs and is coming front and centre to King's Landing.

I mostly agree, but I don't think that Jon is going to leave the NW.  He will become more involved in Northern politics, though.  Sansa, Arya, and Bran will leave their respective mentors once they realize that their interests don't align and they are bad news.  I don't see Sansa going to Kings Landing, though.  She has no reason to to there; there is nothing there for her but enemies and bad memories.  

[Angel Eyes]

On 8/9/2021 at 8:40 PM, chrisdaw said:

These are all the wrong questions.

As their arcs require, Jon will leave the NW, Arya the FM, Bran BR's influence and Sansa Petyr's control. Petyr is about to get fucked up, his plan forgotten, and Sansa's and Tyrion's marriage isn't going anywhere, it is a core component of their character arcs and is coming front and centre to King's Landing.

Many of you have a problem, you've fallen in love with a character at the beginning of a character arc. They're going to change on you, and in some cases it'll be a 180 about face.

Well we've seen that happen quite a lot haven't we? I'd talk more about it but this thread would be closed down.

[CamiloRP]

19 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

Hes certainly shown no interest in setting foot in HH throughout the entire story

Until he does tho, he never showed interest in kidnapping Sansa until he did, for example. He's not a POV, so we are not inside his head, and he doesn't reveal his hand until the very last minute.

He also showed great interest in the castle: giving it to his man as a reward for doing his job, a really big prize, and a really big insult to House Whent, a house that had done nothing that early in the war, and a house that could've surrender if generous terms were offered. Then Tyrion sees hunger in his eyes when he offers HH to him. Then he asks for it as a reward. He clearly wants that castle, and not any other, and there must be a reason. 

 

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He doesnt want any castle. Petes not playing your grandfathers game of thrones, with colorful knights and ugly fortresses. Hes the mocking bird and has no interest in bunkering down in some siege 

It couldn't hurt, it's better to have one and not need it than to need one and don't have it. 

 

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HH brings those things too

What things?

Because it's not recognized as the castle of the Lord of the Riverlands, Riverrun is, HH was at best the castle of a conqueror for a literally hot literal minute.

It's not cheaper to keep, it's really expensive.

It's easier to storm/take than Riverrun.

It's cursed cursed.

It's not the castle where he grew up.

And it's not 'a great way to give the middle finger to Hoster'.

It also doesn't provide a legitimacy bringing bride, like RR does in the form of Lysa.

 

So, what of those things Harrenhal brings too?

 

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and can theoretically be occupied, unlike the center of resistance of Riverrun. 

LF knows that RR will eventually be taken, the kingdom of the North can't hold the Riverlands. And RR is eventually taken, before LF occupies HH.

 

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The fuck you to Hosters kinda funny but petty as hell and as the old mans about to die its kinda silly.

Baelish is petty as hell, at least IMHO.

 

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lol. Curses aren't real man

I wouldn't be so sure dude. Magic, necromancy, greendreams and skinchangers are real, why not curses? and even if they weren't, it doesn't matter, what matters is if LF's believes in them or not.

 

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Theoretically I guess. Idk, Derrys mad small and weak. HH is the seat of kings, the greatest fortress known to man, specifically designed to keep the Riverlords at bay.

It's a far too expensive ruin that has been taken like thrice in a few months.

 

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Lysa, Id say is third most enticing bachelorette in the world, preceded by Sansa and Dany. Petyr did not marry down

Sansa is debatable, she's apparent heir of the North (if no one knows she was disinherited) but she's also married, so not a bachelor, and accused of regicide.

Dany absolutely, although she may be less so if people find out she's barren, but even then, great catch (tho also, she's married)

Then There's Arianne, the heir of Dorne, beautiful, and probably fertile.

Asha, likely heir of the Iron Islands, not so pretty but probably fertile.

Cersei, regent queen mother, tho, walk of shame.

Lysa is regent mother of a sickly boy everyone expects to die, she also has known fertility issues and is known to be a bit off, so any of the above is a better catch than her, and likely many more that just don't come to mind right now. Baelish in the other hand, is extremely rich, and a very good friend of everyone in the small council, she's also the ruling lord of one of the seven kingdoms in his own way, not through a sickly boy.

 

[Hugorfonics]

5 hours ago, CamiloRP said:

Until he does tho, he never showed interest in kidnapping Sansa until he did, for example. He's not a POV, so we are not inside his head, and he doesn't reveal his hand until the very last minute.

The first time he met Sansa, although not screaming kidnapping certainly showed an intrest

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"I have not had the honor, my lord." Septa Mordane quickly took a hand.

"Sweet child, this is Lord Petyr Baelish, of the king's small council."

"Your mother was my queen of beauty once," the man said quietly. His breath smelled of mint. "You have her hair." His fingers brushed against her cheek as he stroked one auburn lock. Quite abruptly he turned and walked away.

Weird. Likewise he always gave the vibe of the mocking bird so when it turns out hes responsible for Statk vs Lannister it makes sense.

HH though is so not Petyr battleground

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"The riverlands have need of a lord," old Horton Redfort said. "Riverrun stands besieged, Bracken and Blackwood are at open war, and outlaws roam freely on both sides of the Trident, stealing and killing as they will. Unburied corpses litter the landscape everywhere you go."

"You make it sound so wonderfully attractive, Lord Redfort," Petyr answered, "but as it happens I have pressing duties here.

 

5 hours ago, CamiloRP said:

He also showed great interest in the castle: giving it to his man as a reward for doing his job

Janos was his own man but whatever. So like I alluded to earlier but Ill double down now, Tywin would never allow the hall of kings to be held by a butchers son therefore LF suggesting HH to Cersei is a good way to hold the vacant spot for later, when the worlds more chaos ridden 

5 hours ago, CamiloRP said:

Then Tyrion sees hunger in his eyes when he offers HH to him. Then he asks for it as a reward. He clearly wants that castle, and not any other, and there must be a reason. 

His plans working, hes excited. 

Not any other castle, just a big one. One that matches the Eyrie, which like 10 exist

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"Joffrey gave you Harrenhal. You are lord in your own right there."

"By title. I needed a great seat to marry Lysa, and the Lannisters were not about to grant me Casterly Rock."

 

5 hours ago, CamiloRP said:

Because it's not recognized as the castle of the Lord of the Riverlands, Riverrun is, HH was at best the castle of a conqueror for a literally hot literal minute.

Its recognized now.

5 hours ago, CamiloRP said:

So, what of those things Harrenhal brings too?

Lysa. Its a stepping stone, nothing more.

5 hours ago, CamiloRP said:

Baelish is petty as hell, at least IMHO.

"Told ya not to trust me"/"only cat" is dumb petty, no doubt. But theyre just words and honestly Eddard and Lysa forced LFs hand, he didnt really want either dead or defeated.

5 hours ago, CamiloRP said:

LF knows that RR will eventually be taken, the kingdom of the North can't hold the Riverlands

Bet on grey dude. Winter is coming and fish swim.

LF will have 0 antagonism in the Riverlands once Sansa Tully, er Stark, wait Lannister?... Oh Hardying. Once Sansa Hardying pulls up the war of 3 queens will no doubt center upon the Freys RW and the kingdom of the trident. 

5 hours ago, CamiloRP said:

And RR is eventually taken, before LF occupies HH.

Of course, hes not gonna occupy HH. And yea RR has fallen but, like yesterday or something and the terrorist freedom fighter outlaw knight bard tom o sevens is there so im pretty sure itll fall again.  Like tomorrow

Aunt Gemma makes it clear, RR is poison

5 hours ago, CamiloRP said:

Magic, necromancy, greendreams and skinchangers are real, why not curses?

Ok... Lol cant argue there

5 hours ago, CamiloRP said:

what matters is if LF's believes in them or not.

Which he surely does not

5 hours ago, CamiloRP said:

It's a far too expensive ruin that has been taken like thrice in a few months.

Yea, fuck that place

5 hours ago, CamiloRP said:

Then There's Arianne, the heir of Dorne,

Oh thats good, idk, she has a conniving dad who wants to see the world burn. Lysa Dany and Sansa are orphans

6 hours ago, CamiloRP said:

Cersei, regent queen mother

Word! Speaking of orphans. And to think Tywin was gonna marry her off, smh, what an idiot lol

5 hours ago, CamiloRP said:

Lysa is regent mother of a sickly boy everyone expects to die, she also has known fertility issues and is known to be a bit off, so any of the above is a better catch than her, and likely many more that just don't come to mind right now

Lysa controls the knights of the Vale. 20 years ago they conquered Westeros, its all Petyrs ever wanted

[The Commentator]

Petyr Baelish and Euron Greyjoy have something in common. They want to pull down the kingdom. Bitterness is the reason with Littlefinger. Euron is just insane.  Other naive actors like Jon Snow, Mance Rayder, Cersei, and Arya will help them push Westeros to anarchy.  

[Rodruin]

I agree

[CamiloRP]

On 8/10/2021 at 5:45 PM, Hugorfonics said:

The first time he met Sansa, although not screaming kidnapping certainly showed an intrest

Exactly! following the same logic, asking for Harrenhal is enough to think that he might want to occupy it.

 

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Janos was his own man but whatever. So like I alluded to earlier but Ill double down now, Tywin would never allow the hall of kings to be held by a butchers son therefore LF suggesting HH to Cersei is a good way to hold the vacant spot for later, when the worlds more chaos ridden 

So, he specifically wants Harrenhal then? That's what I'm saying.

 

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His plans working, hes excited. 

His plans work many times, we never see him as excited as when he's promised that castle. Maybe when he meets Sansa, and he wants her for reasons other than just giving him status.

 

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Not any other castle, just a big one. One that matches the Eyrie, which like 10 exist

So, you are agreeing with me, he specifically wants that castle? And your reason is only that it's big? does that sound like a good enough motive to be 'hungry' about it? does it sounf like LF?

 

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Its recognized now.

Yes... But RR was recognized before, which is better to keep the people you are ruling over at bay, same reason why Bolton wants Ramsay to rule from Winterfell, despite it being a ruin with no army.

 

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Lysa. Its a stepping stone, nothing more.

What about all the other things I listed? why not ask for RR when it brings him Lysa and a whole bunch more things and he has a more legitimate claim to, through Lysa?

 

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"Told ya not to trust me"/"only cat" is dumb petty, no doubt. But theyre just words and honestly Eddard and Lysa forced LFs hand, he didnt really want either dead or defeated.

So? Neither of them fucked him like Hoster did, and taking his house would not mean killing him. Also, I would claim he did want both of them dead, as he had a hand in both of their deaths.

 

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Bet on grey dude. Winter is coming and fish swim.

Except... he didn't, he bet on the Lannisters, and rightfully so.

 

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LF will have 0 antagonism in the Riverlands once Sansa Tully, er Stark, wait Lannister?... Oh Hardying. Once Sansa Hardying pulls up the war of 3 queens will no doubt center upon the Freys RW and the kingdom of the trident. 

I doubt cero, as it's well known he supported the people who caused the Red Wedding.

 

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Of course, hes not gonna occupy HH. And yea RR has fallen but, like yesterday or something and the terrorist freedom fighter outlaw knight bard tom o sevens is there so im pretty sure itll fall again.  Like tomorrow

No doubt, and Harrenhal will eventually fall with it. For LF to win the Tullys can't return to RR, regardless if he has it or not, as they would contest his claim to rule the Riverlands, but he has a better claim to rule them if he does from RR while wed to Lysa (or widowed)

 

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Yea, fuck that place

So why does he want it so bad? If ti's just the title why not any other castle? He shouldn't want HH, RR is a much better choice, or almost any other castle in the Riverlands, so whats he's motive?

 

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Lysa controls the knights of the Vale. 20 years ago they conquered Westeros, its all Petyrs ever wanted

I'm not questioning why he wants Lysa tho, I'm just saying that LF is a fucking great catch right now, better than Lysa.

[Hugorfonics]

4 hours ago, CamiloRP said:

Exactly! following the same logic, asking for Harrenhal is enough to think that he might want to occupy it.

 

So, he specifically wants Harrenhal then? That's what I'm saying.

 

His plans work many times, we never see him as excited as when he's promised that castle. Maybe when he meets Sansa, and he wants her for reasons other than just giving him status.

 

So, you are agreeing with me, he specifically wants that castle? And your reason is only that it's big? does that sound like a good enough motive to be 'hungry' about it? does it sounf like LF?

Really big. 

4 hours ago, CamiloRP said:

Yes... But RR was recognized before, which is better to keep the people you are ruling over at bay, same reason why Bolton wants Ramsay to rule from Winterfell, despite it being a ruin with no army.

RR isnt the nicest castle in the RL, the Tullys were just the first to rebel against their overlords and welcomed the dragon. Ancient history.

4 hours ago, CamiloRP said:

What about all the other things I listed?

Irrelevant. Pete doesnt want to manage any castle.

4 hours ago, CamiloRP said:

why not ask for RR when it brings him Lysa and a whole bunch more things and he has a more legitimate claim to, through Lysa?

RR will piss people off

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"A poisoned prize. House Darry is extinguished in the male line, House Tully is not. That muttonhead Ser Ryman puts a noose round Edmure's neck, but will not hang him. And Roslin Frey has a trout growing in her belly. My grandsons will never be secure in Riverrun so long as any Tully heir remains alive."

 

4 hours ago, CamiloRP said:

Also, I would claim he did want both of them dead, as he had a hand in both of their deaths.

It was the lesser of two evils. Petyr practically begged Ned to not continue his doomed plan, and Lysas mind snapped, making her a problematic loose end 

4 hours ago, CamiloRP said:

Except... he didn't, he bet on the Lannisters, and rightfully so

He bet on Arryn. Certainly not Lannister as Tyrion keeps fucking up his schemes.

4 hours ago, CamiloRP said:

No doubt, and Harrenhal will eventually fall with it. For LF to win the Tullys can't return to RR, regardless if he has it or not, as they would contest his claim to rule the Riverlands, but he has a better claim to rule them if he does from RR while wed to Lysa (or widowed)

Petyr has no interest in ruling the wartorn riverlands

4 hours ago, CamiloRP said:

So why does he want it so bad? If ti's just the title why not any other castle?

The title in question isnt lord of random place but paramount of a kingdom, the same level as the Eyrie.

4 hours ago, CamiloRP said:

so whats he's motive?

Its prestigious and vacant

[Angel Eyes]

16 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

It was the lesser of two evils. Petyr practically begged Ned to not continue his doomed plan, and Lysas mind snapped, making her a problematic loose end 

 

Not snapped enough to not be useful. She was already snapped by the time she poisoned Jon Arryn.

[Hugorfonics]

16 hours ago, Angel Eyes said:

Not snapped enough to not be useful. 

The lord declerant for example would never have assembled if Lysa was alive

16 hours ago, Angel Eyes said:

She was already snapped by the time she poisoned Jon Arryn.

Sure. The fact that your ready to murder your husband is a strong sign that not all marbles are present, her uncle remarks on that too.

Still, she took a dive (lol) from agot to asos probably because of murdering Jon. Dirty hands like Lady Macbeth. (And Sansa, who just seems to bring out the best in people)

[BlackLightning]

On 8/8/2021 at 7:22 PM, Roswell said:

Petyr wants to destroy the establishment in order to build a new order.  He suffered humiliation at the hands of the Tullys and Starks.  He was not considered good enough for Tully's daughters.  Brandon almost killed him in combat.  What he wants is a Westeros without those families.  Social structure caps how far people can rise.  Petyr rose to his wealth and position through his own skills.  A Westeros where people are rewarded based on merit would suit him.  Sansa, Robin, and Harry are pawns in his game.  They are part of the social class which he wants to remove.  Would you be surprised if Petyr turns out to be an unconventional hero who wants to open the doors of opportunity for everyone? 

This.

Especially the bold parts.

He's a undercover 20th century meritocrat.

If he is not this, he is no different than Varys...which we all know is not true.

On 8/9/2021 at 2:07 PM, Hugorfonics said:

The fuck you to Hosters kinda funny but petty as hell and as the old mans about to die its kinda silly.

Never underestimate the power of petty.

That's one thing I have learned in life....the depths and lengths people will go in order to be petty

[BlackLightning]

4 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

Sure. The fact that your ready to murder your husband is a strong sign that not all marbles are present, her uncle remarks on that too.

Still, she took a dive (lol) from agot to asos probably because of murdering Jon. Dirty hands like Lady Macbeth. (And Sansa, who just seems to bring out the best in people)

LMAO I hate you so much for this!

[Angel Eyes]

10 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

The lord declerant for example would never have assembled if Lysa was alive

Sure. The fact that your ready to murder your husband is a strong sign that not all marbles are present, her uncle remarks on that too.

Still, she took a dive (lol) from agot to asos probably because of murdering Jon. Dirty hands like Lady Macbeth. (And Sansa, who just seems to bring out the best in people)

Did she? Lysa didn't seem much worse from the first to the third books. Plus, Littlefinger had to make sure she wasn't snapped enough to be a liability and not execute what he wanted.

[Hugorfonics]

21 hours ago, Angel Eyes said:

Did she? Lysa didn't seem much worse from the first to the third books

I disagree. Granted the abortion did a number

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Lysa put her hands flat against her belly, as if the child was still there. "When they stole him from me, I made a promise to myself that I would never let it happen again. Jon wished to send my sweet Robert to Dragonstone, and that sot of a king would have given him to Cersei Lannister, but I never let them . . .

Swearing vows is eyebrow raising and certainly a step in the right direction but still just a step. She has a plan, its not just ramblings like Patchface

As Brynden notes

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"The Lysa who came back from King's Landing is not the same girl who went south when her husband was named Hand. Those years were hard for her. You must know. Lord Arryn was a dutiful husband, but their marriage was made from politics, not passion."

this is recent. 

When Lysa went to KL her forced abortion already happened so while some mental anguish is clear her uncle thinks the real demise happened in KL. And as we know KL was the scene of matricide. 

When we meet Lysa in agot its definitely a wtf moment; 

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Catelyn saw her face change. It was as if the sun had gone behind a cloud. "Have you taken leave of your senses?" Lysa snapped at her. "To bring him here, without a word of permission, without so much as a warning, to drag us into your quarrels with the Lannisters …"

"My quarrels?" Catelyn could scarce believe what she was hearing. A great fire burned in the hearth, but there was no trace of warmth in Lysa's voice. "They were your quarrels first, sister. It was you who sent me that cursed letter, you who wrote that the Lannisters had murdered your husband."

"To warn you, so you could stay away from them! I never meant to fight them! Gods, Cat, do you know what you've done?"

But on rereads, with Lysas treason in sight, its all well within reason. Lysa, like Petyr, is pitting Stark against Lannister while trying to stay the hell outta crossfire. Its all according to plan. 

But by the time of asos

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that sot of a king would have given him to Cersei Lannister, but I never let them . . . no more than I'll let you steal my Petyr Littlefinger. Do you hear me, Alayne or Sansa or whatever you call yourself? Do you hear what I am telling you?"

The plans and secrecy are out the moon door and Lysas mind is truly lost

21 hours ago, Angel Eyes said:

Plus, Littlefinger had to make sure she wasn't snapped enough to be a liability and not execute what he wanted.

Word. Like Joff and Cersei before her, Sansa brings Lysa to overdrive

[Nevets]

I think Littlefinger has three main interests, and any analysis of his plans should take these into account.

1.  Increase his power and influence in Westeros.

2.  Maintain and increase his wealth.

3.  Turn Sansa into his protege and collaborator on the one hand, and his lover and future wife on the other.

With regard to Harrenhal, his actions make sense.   Harrenhal gives him a top-level title which, among other things, enables him to marry Lysa without awkward objections or questions.  He also presumably gets its incomes, which are probably pretty decent as well.  His marriage to Lysa gives him power in the Vale,, which is currently prosperous and peaceful.  Whether or not Harrenhal is occupied by the Lannisters is no concern.  He has no plans to live there, or anywhere else in the Riverlands.  If he did, he would have to take charge of the place, and he doesn't want that.  Too much responsibility and accountability.  Riverrun is of no interest.  It is occupied by its rightful owners, and at the time, seemed likely to be so forever.

In other areas, I think he may be planning to have Sansa have a child with Harry the Heir, and then get rid of Harry - and Robert - when they have outlived their usefulness to him.  He could then presumably marry Sansa, and rule the Vale through her child.  Or something like that.  I also expect him to take financial advantage of the food surpluses in the Vale by selling them at inflated prices.  These ideas are not likely to appeal to Sansa, and their different worldviews will likely lead to his demise.  Sansa will use her newly learned skills to take him down.