LitRPG / Cultivation / Progression Fantasy

[Eric Cartman]

I don't really see much discussion about subject genres. Any here are fans? 

[Lord of Rhinos]

I've read very little of it, but what I've read has made me think it is pretty bad.

[Werthead]

It's a subgenre which a lot more people seem to talk about than actually read. r/fantasy has a topic on it about once a month and it mostly gets puzzled responses and then a sub-invasion of people from the LitRPG community who don't do a great job of selling it very well.

I would be interested in checking the best example out, but no one seems to be able to agree on what that is.

[Teng Ai Hui]

8 hours ago, Werthead said:

It's a subgenre which a lot more people seem to talk about than actually read. r/fantasy has a topic on it about once a month and it mostly gets puzzled responses and then a sub-invasion of people from the LitRPG community who don't do a great job of selling it very well.

I would be interested in checking the best example out, but no one seems to be able to agree on what that is.

Ready Player One seems to fit into this category.  If it's not the best example, it's got to be the most well-known.

[Rhom]

I’m not familiar with it.

What is it?

[frodostark]

22 hours ago, Werthead said:

It's a subgenre which a lot more people seem to talk about than actually read. r/fantasy has a topic on it about once a month and it mostly gets puzzled responses and then a sub-invasion of people from the LitRPG community who don't do a great job of selling it very well.

I would be interested in checking the best example out, but no one seems to be able to agree on what that is.

LitRPG does seem pretty bad..."character falls into videogame/simulation/video-game-like world and then must SURVIVE."  Progression fantasy is a little more interesting as it's basically taking the quest narrative and marrying character power disparity with world-spanning challenges; the character journey towards increased skill/power helps drive the narrative of dealing with the larger challenges.

Cradle by Will Wight seems like easily the best and most popular of the English-language progression series (I gather much of it is from Asia and online versus in book form).  I think the last two volumes were Amazon #1 bestsellers on release day. 

Reasons:

1 - It's limited; a lot of progression fantasy seems focused on the ever-growing power progression aspect but with no clear end in sight.  Cradle is 9 (short, i.e. ~300 page) volumes so far with a planned end at 12.

2 - It very much plays in the Sanderson-like realm of magic with rules.  It's less "scientific" than Sanderson but consistent and with a constant increase in knowledge that builds on what came before.  The magic system is effectively a system that builds power and strength through greater training and knowledge of how to use the magic, think Karate Kid as a fantasy.

3 - It's got a lot of depth of world and history that it plays with and it marries nicely two genres or styles: a sci-fi overtale that gradually takes on more shape over the series and an Asian-influenced fantasy that the main characters are living in.

4 - Wight embraces the COOL factor.  Every book has one or two ridiculous-in-the-best-way set-pieces that show him thinking through the effects of his systems and his character's journey and then throwing it all together.  Flying clouds, people who can become giants, fighting with scissors instead of swords because you're just that strong, cities made of bone, and villains who use blood as their weapon are just some of the insanity.

5 - The books are genuinely funny in a sarcastic and wry sort of way that comes from the characters themselves.  It's a dramatic story with over-the-top action and powers but Wight leavens it with the characters' quirks and uniqueness.  

It  may very much not be everyone's cup of tea, but I've really enjoyed it from go.  There's a big surprise about halfway through book 1 that hooked me and by the third volume I was along for wherever the ride goes.

[Werthead]

19 hours ago, Teng Ai Hui said:

Ready Player One seems to fit into this category.  If it's not the best example, it's got to be the most well-known.

RP1 is LitRPG-adjacent but it's not really part of the genre. The advancement thing - the characters "levelling up" as the story progresses which is a key part of the genre - is absent (arguably, that makes Malazan more of a LitRPG than RP1, though it isn't really).

[Kyll.Ing.]

10 hours ago, Werthead said:

RP1 is LitRPG-adjacent but it's not really part of the genre. The advancement thing - the characters "levelling up" as the story progresses which is a key part of the genre - is absent (arguably, that makes Malazan more of a LitRPG than RP1, though it isn't really).

Uhh ... is it? At the start, Wade has to hitchhike with people he detest to farm XP against imps on remote noob worlds, and barely makes enough coin to afford a return ticket. Near the end of the story, he casually takes on a whole clan of professional egg hunters and slaughters them one by one. It seems clear to me that he advances significantly in terms of power level, and he even mentions grinding side quests to level up to level 99, whatever that means.

[Eric Cartman]

It's actually a mishmash of multiple sib-genres.

GameLit - Any books which encompasses game elements. E.g. Ready Player One

LitRPG - Bulk of story takes place inside a game or a world where game elements are part of reality. Has stats and skill trees.

Cultivation - Mostly involves taoist (or similar) philosophies where MCs use "cultivation" to make their bodies perform more than normal.

Progression Fantasy - More similar to normal fantasy book, but follows MC as they progressively get more and more powerful with stakes getting higher. E.g. Cradle. 

If anyone is really interested in this genre, I can recommend

Awaken Online - Get past first 100 pages and it gets superb

Dungeon Crawler Carl - More of a fun read. Excellent. 

God of Gnomes - Probably the best prose in this genre! 

 

[Eric Cartman]

On 8/20/2021 at 7:22 PM, Werthead said:

arguably, that makes Malazan more of a LitRPG than RP1, though it isn't really

I don't think there's any real progression in Malazan. Most characters are OP as they are. It's straightforward fantasy. 

[Werthead]

12 hours ago, Eric Cartman said:

I don't think there's any real progression in Malazan. Most characters are OP as they are. It's straightforward fantasy. 

Nah, the progression of characters like Karsa Orlong (though he starts reasonably tough but then turns into an actual god), Crokus, Apsalar (even after being given a divine leg-up), the Bridgeburners, Kyle etc are all plain to see. They start off not being able to do too much and by the end of the series are fighting off gods and effective superbeings like K'Chain Che'Malle and Forkrul Assail.

[Eric Cartman]

17 minutes ago, Werthead said:

Nah, the progression of characters like Karsa Orlong (though he starts reasonably tough but then turns into an actual god), Crokus, Apsalar (even after being given a divine leg-up), the Bridgeburners, Kyle etc are all plain to see. They start off not being able to do too much and by the end of the series are fighting off gods and effective superbeings like K'Chain Che'Malle and Forkrul Assail.

I would consider that normal character development. MCs in WoT, Kaladin in Stormlight, Harry in Dresden Files, Fitz in Farseer etc etc, all of them progress to become more powerful that they were in book 1.

The progression in LitRPG segments is more stat (strength, intelligence, dexterity) or level up their powers (Level 2 spells etc). 

[Werthead]

Just now, Eric Cartman said:

I would consider that normal character development. MCs in WoT, Kaladin in Stormlight, Harry in Dresden Files, Fitz in Farseer etc etc, all of them progress to become more powerful that they were in book 1.

The progression in LitRPG segments is more stat (strength, intelligence, dexterity) or level up their powers (Level 2 spells etc). 

True, but Malazan does have a stat-based system for tracking the characters behind the scenes (based on the GURPS roleplaying rules) and there are game-like progression systems in the narrative itself, like characters "Ascending" when they reach a particular power level.

Wheel of Time, for that matter, has a numerical stat system for measuring strength in the One Power which RJ used (behind the scenes) to measure the characters' strengths relative to one another and how much more powerful they got book by book. It was only made public in the companion book released after the last novel and is mind-bogglingly elaborate.

[sparkc]

I definitely have a soft-spot for progression fantasy but even that soft-spot is not enough to allow me to enjoy the overwhelming majority of them. They're mostly awful. I have however tried a large number of them.

In my experience:

I have found all the most popular of the published stories unreadably bad, except perhaps Will Wights *Cradle* and the *Sufficiently Advanced Magic* series. I dropped them both very early on but they were at least not awful.

I think the best examples all originated as web-fic, though many of them can now be found on Amazon.

Mother of Learning: A time-loop progression fic that is a great example of competence-porn. The main character is moderately intelligent, highly conscientious and has been placed in a situation ripe for "progression" which he does so with a satisfying level of competence. It is one of the most beloved progression fics and has fairly interesting worldbuilding, magic systems and plot that makes good use of a time-loop, at least early on. Don't expect great prose or dialogue.

 

Dungeon Crawler Carl: This story is of the Lit-RPG System Apocalypse variety which is where a RPG-like system is thrown over earth, technology is extinguished and a flood of monsters are introduced. It is its own sub-genre of progression fic. Dungeon Crawler Carl stands out because it places a influencer, livestream/reality-tv layer over the plot, with the earths population being turned into contestants for some galactic game that rewards those who are "entertaining" and includes a soulless corporation designing a deathworld to fatten its bottom line. 

If Matthew Stover wrote a LitRPG progression fic it would be a much better version of something like this.

Finally, there is Worth The Candle. This story towers over everything else within progression fantasy and stands as a monument as to what you can do with the sub-genre if you have an endless supply of talent and aim for the stars.

The story follows a teenager who wakes up in a fantasy world that is an amalgamation of every D&D campaign he has ever DM'd. The story is an incredible subversion and reconstruction of all things power-fantasy, a treatise on all things tabletop gaming, a delightfully meta experience and an example of some of the best character writing I've experienced. It is arguable whether it is progression fantasy but it's so far above everything else I've read within the genre that I can't not recommend it.

It's not on Amazon but it is free to read on Royal Road and if you look through the reviews you'll see a flood of people naming it the best LitRPG or webfic they have ever read.

[Gigei]

Let's not make it complicated.

Do you admire the good training montage? Have you ever thought to yourself "I wish the books had more of this"?

Well, Progression Fantasy is exactly that. Imagine a story where the whole point of this to have tons of training montages and battles where the protagonist can show off his or her latest, most awesome new skills/powers.

If you're interested in reading something, I suggest the web comic Solo Leveling aka Only I Level Up.

[Eric Cartman]

On 8/23/2021 at 8:46 AM, sparkc said:

Dungeon Crawler Carl: This story is of the Lit-RPG System Apocalypse variety which is where a RPG-like system is thrown over earth, technology is extinguished and a flood of monsters are introduced. It is its own sub-genre of progression fic. Dungeon Crawler Carl stands out because it places a influencer, livestream/reality-tv layer over the plot, with the earths population being turned into contestants for some galactic game that rewards those who are "entertaining" and includes a soulless corporation designing a deathworld to fatten its bottom line. 

This is FANTASTIC. One of the best series to date in this segment. Fun and adventurous! 

On 9/3/2021 at 8:58 PM, Gigei said:

I suggest the web comic Solo Leveling aka Only I Level Up.

There was a novella for this, that I read. Was really good, but finished abruptly in middle of a paragraph. Literally. 

[Gigei]

12 minutes ago, Eric Cartman said:

There was a novella for this, that I read. Was really good, but finished abruptly in middle of a paragraph. Literally. 

I only know the comic. There is apparently a novel with an official English translation, but there a tons of illegal websites that copied the content. Are you sure you didn't accidentally read it on one of those? That would explain why it got cut off - those websites aren't the best.