Lannister Military Buildup?

[Aldarion]

On 10/3/2021 at 11:15 PM, Jaenara Belarys said:

Feudal conscripts did not semi-regularly train. Perhaps the men at arms, but not the peasants. We can see that in The Sworn Sword, where Ser Eustace "trains" his peasant levies. Furthermore, armies such as this did not "perform well." How would they? They're peasants, not the "nobles". Again, click on the link above. 

 

Feudal levies are not conscripts. Historically, levies were semi-professional troops akin to US National Guard. For the most part, this holds true for Westeros as well - but GRRM has to have grimdark, so he throws in conscripted peasants here and there as well.

[Jaenara Belarys]

24 minutes ago, Aldarion said:

Feudal levies are not conscripts. Historically, levies were semi-professional troops akin to US National Guard. For the most part, this holds true for Westeros as well - but GRRM has to have grimdark, so he throws in conscripted peasants here and there as well.

In this context, the definition of the word "levies" is this: 

Levy is defined as to force into military service or to declare and fight in a war. An example of levy is the military draft. ... To enlist or conscript into military service.

 

[The Young Maester]

3 hours ago, Jaenara Belarys said:

In this context, the definition of the word "levies" is this: 

Levy is defined as to force into military service or to declare and fight in a war. An example of levy is the military draft. ... To enlist or conscript into military service.

 

Levies is more appropriate because it relates to the peasants of the Middle Ages.

The word conscript is a 19th century term. And it means a complete different thing.

A feudal lord is responsible for acquiring men from his own lands. They follow him directly and eventually all go home at the wars end.

Conscripts are men given basic training, a weapon and uniform. They are drawn from a central government and are spread out between the different armies.

[Jaenara Belarys]

1 hour ago, The Young Maester said:

A feudal lord is responsible for acquiring men from his own lands. They follow him directly and eventually all go home at the wars end.

 

Which is the Westerosi system, yes. Entirely different than what @Aldarion thinks they are. 

[The Young Maester]

1 hour ago, Jaenara Belarys said:

Which is the Westerosi system, yes. Entirely different than what @Aldarion thinks they are. 

Well what he is saying applies to the Middle Ages. If we use England as an example, the population was around 2 million. Obviously out of those thousands of farmers that lived in England, not all of them were what Aldarion means semi professional soldiers, but a good portion of them were, especially enough to raise an army that’s around the thousands.

Now the problem in Martin’s world is that he implies that the levies are just a peasant that had a spear shoved in their hands. But if you see Tyrion’s very confusing POV at the green fork, you’ll notice how most of the karstark men he is fighting have mail, and actually fight like professional soldiers. And let’s not forget that the bloody mountain and his entourage charged at the karstark shield wall and they didn’t break, they had arrows punching threw them and they didnt break.

Than you have Alys karstark saying that the crops have gone bad because most of the men went south. Which implies those karstark men were farmers.

Fact is that the world building aspect of Martin is shite, and inconsistent.

[Jaenara Belarys]

Just now, The Young Maester said:

Fact is that the world building aspect of Martin is shite, and inconsistent.

He says that the Dothraki are just a mishmash of Plains and steppe cultures thrown into a pot and stirred, but a basic knowledge of history will rip that to shreds. No armor? Really? The weapons, logistics, everything is fucked up, majorly. 

4 minutes ago, The Young Maester said:

Now the problem in Martin’s world is that he implies that the levies are just a peasant that had a spear shoved in their hands. But if you see Tyrion’s very confusing POV at the green fork, you’ll notice how most of the karstark men he is fighting have mail, and actually fight like professional soldiers. And let’s not forget that the bloody mountain and his entourage charged at the karstark shield wall and they didn’t break, they had arrows punching threw them and they didnt break.

 

Mail was always expensive back then, and he says the Lannisters form squares for pikes....the problem is that that requires quite a lot of drill and that's not conductive for feudal systems.

[Universal Sword Donor]

On 10/15/2021 at 9:26 PM, Jaenara Belarys said:

He says that the Dothraki are just a mishmash of Plains and steppe cultures thrown into a pot and stirred, but a basic knowledge of history will rip that to shreds. No armor? Really? The weapons, logistics, everything is fucked up, majorly. 

Mail was always expensive back then, and he says the Lannisters form squares for pikes....the problem is that that requires quite a lot of drill and that's not conductive for feudal systems.

Doesn't really take an onerous amount of training. Squares are different than schilltroms, but not so much difference that it makes it irrelevant. We see the Karstark infantry make a schilltrom / hedgehog on the march. The scots used basically a pike square at bannockburn in an offensive manner and  they were certainly not professional nor a standing army.

The men fighting are indeed peasants but only in the sense that they are not noble or knighted. The men marching off to war (in the real world) would either have been men of relative means or sent by a man of relative means and required by law to have certain arms and armor based on income / worth. The normal infantry would look very very similar to the first armies we see, both the Lannister and Stark / Frey forces have pretty standard polearm / spear infantry with mail and helmets. Jaime and Catelyn even confirm that the forces are composed of freemen, farmers, and whatnot.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assize_of_Arms_of_1181#Text_of_the_Assize_of_Arms

[Aldarion]

On 10/16/2021 at 1:16 AM, Jaenara Belarys said:

Which is the Westerosi system, yes. Entirely different than what @Aldarion thinks they are. 

Except not. What The Yoing Maester described:

On 10/15/2021 at 11:42 PM, The Young Maester said:

A feudal lord is responsible for acquiring men from his own lands. They follow him directly and eventually all go home at the wars end.

Applies just as much to semi-professional troops of Hungarian militia portalis or even Byzantine stratiotes, as it does to peasant militia. A soldier of, say, militia portalis, or a landowning soldier of a feudal banderium will - unless he is a knight and thus a full-time soldier - still own land, in some cases also personally work on it, and will mobilize only for war and go home at war's end. Unlike a mobilized peasant, however, this soldier will be equipped by the community (in Hungary, expectation was for each 20 houses to provide a light cavalryman), will train both individually and in units, and - while not as good as professional soldiers - will be far above in terms of quality compared to the sort of peasant conscripts you seem to imply.