Won't Somebody Please Think Of The Incels?

[HoodedCrow]

I had a casual university friend who unaccountably went Trumper.  He knows better than this. He encountered a lot of failure and wanted the mainstream things, although he was doing okay. He had that sense of entitlement drilled into him from religion and then private school. It messed him up. He went to a great U as well. In the end he contacted me out of the blue…that is fine as I am safely married. He said something like, ha, I don’t want to visit you two on the West Coast, instead I’m going to Florida where there are people who think like I do. ( okay, he wrote to me, so why would you contact us then?) He then started to unpack Fox News crap, and I didn’t want to respond to his angry letters. I tried to change the subject from politics twice in snail mail!

I am glad that we moved.( unrelated). It scared me. 
 

 

[Guy Kilmore]

6 hours ago, A wilding said:

@Liffguard Thanks for sharing that. I think a lot of male adolescents go through a stage a little bit like that, if not so bad. I know I did (partly down to living in a village with few other children my age around).

A lot to unpick in this conclusion.

I don't think anyone was advocating "a stern talking to". While possibly satisfying to the talker, that would obviously not be the right approach. I am not a psychologist and would certainly defer to @Guy Kilmore here, but I would think that empathy and encouragement would be a better approach.

Describing it as a toxic ideology does imply it should perhaps be treated as a terrorist ideology, or at least at should be countered in a similar way to how a terrorist ideology might be. I guess this is your argument? It does seem worth a try.

As for "changing the social conditions that give rise to the ideology", not sure what you are suggesting there, other than perhaps trying to do something about how the internet brings like minded people together into their own echo chamber.

People kind of want a binary approach when it comes to fostering change in another person, but the answer to all of that is "Yes."  Like empathy and encouragement is needed for change, but at the same time something can be still described as a toxic ideology.  Both conditions are needed to foster change.  In the societal sense it is identifying behaviors that are not tolerating and labeling it as such; in an individual setting it is about leveraging your personal relationships and utilizing empathy to help people on their journey in discovery and change.

[PyroclasticFlow]

On 8/17/2021 at 10:47 AM, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

I have -0- sympathy for any man who attempts to claim, a la the Marquis de Sade, that they are entitled to sex with women.

I don’t care if they claim to justify their horseshit with claims of mental health issues.  No human being is entitled to sex with another human being… ever.

So what you’re saying is Bob Dylan displayed incel-like behavior when grooming an underage girl and sexually assaulting her some 50 odd years back?

[A wilding]

@PyroclasticFlow I think there is a logic error there? Just because A implies B it does not mean that B implies A.

(In this case A is incel-like behaviour and B is a sense of entitlement to sex.)

[rotting sea cow]

On 8/17/2021 at 3:12 PM, Spockydog said:

Here are some tips, based on what I have seen of these people.

1. Keep yourself clean and well presented.

2. Keep yourself clean and well presented.

3. Keep yourself clean and well presented.

I mean, the absolute state of some of these geezers. No wonder they aren't getting any.

I've seen lots of dirty, ugly, foul-mouthed, sexist assholes who seem to not have any problem in getting laid and presentable, well-meaning guys that have something that make them unpalatable to the females.

The Incel thing seems to me more complicated than it seems. 

[Liffguard]

On 8/18/2021 at 2:21 PM, A wilding said:

Describing it as a toxic ideology does imply it should perhaps be treated as a terrorist ideology, or at least at should be countered in a similar way to how a terrorist ideology might be. I guess this is your argument? It does seem worth a try.

Essentially, yes. I think that incels need to be looked at as another example of online radicalisation, not dissimilar to other violent / hateful ideologies that perpetuate themselves in the absence of any central organisation. And pulling incels out of that ideology should probably be approached in a similar way to other forms of de-radicalisation.

Quote

As for "changing the social conditions that give rise to the ideology", not sure what you are suggesting there, other than perhaps trying to do something about how the internet brings like minded people together into their own echo chamber.

I honestly don't know what the solution is here. I think the modern incel phenomenon is born from a confluence of many different large-scale social factors that are difficult to reverse. The online echo chambers are a huge part of it, but I'm not sure how you get rid of those without dismantling the internet itself. But also; extreme modern individualism and atomisation, the rise in widespread loneliness and isolation (not exclusively but disproportionately amongst men), social messaging that combines hypersexuality with sexual repression and rigid sexual roles. And more. It's an extremely toxic stew and I don't know that there are any simple or easy solutions.

[IFR]

I think the autonomy of women has grown significantly over the last half century. Women are still underpaid relative to their peers, but that is rapidly changing. More women in the US now are enrolled in college than men, which is an indication that in the not so distant future we may achieve gender parity in wages, or even that women will make on average more than men.

Previously, there was extraordinary pressure for women to get married so someone would support them. That has effectively been removed, which has altered the power dynamics considerably. I'm currently focused on my academic work and future career. And I feel plenty validated by this. I don't in any way feel pressured or demeaned for "not having a man".

From what I've seen, while attitudes regarding women and relationships have seen a seismic shift, over that same period it has been much slower to change regarding men. Too often I see men getting mocked for their hobbies and behaviors because "no woman would want them". This is a fairly poisonous societal attitude, because men shouldn't have to feel like they can only be validated through the approval of women. I would certainly find it objectionable if someone told me to stop a hobby because "men don't find it attractive".

Even the term incel is pretty harmful. The negative association is due to men who are involuntarily celibate and respond violently or promote violence against women. But I think the association is extending to the point that there is now forming an assumption that if a guy is socially maladaptive, if he can't validate himself through the approval of women, then there is something wrong with him. Which I think is not a good message to send.

This applies to heterosexual guys, of course. Men who are gay or bisexual have their own set of harmful social expectations to deal with.

[Ran]

41 minutes ago, IFR said:

Women are still underpaid relative to their peers, but that is rapidly changing. More women in the US now are enrolled in college than men, which is an indication that in the not so distant future we may achieve gender parity in wages, or even that women will make on average more than men.

Most of the remaining gap in the US and other modern countries is more a childcare penalty, with the wage gap practically disappearing when you compare childless employees across gender. 

To the degree that women may often gravitate to greater engagement in childrearing as a personal preference remains unknown, and of course there are policy steps that can be take to even things out a bit further (see the article's note about Denmark giving parental leave that men rarely use, preferring to give it all to their partners, whereas Sweden and other Nordics reserve a certain portion exclusively for men.) But perfect gender parity may never really happen even when we do as much as we can to remove barriers.

 

 

[IFR]

@Ran

Very interesting read. Thank you!

[Fury Resurrected]

2 hours ago, rotting sea cow said:

I've seen lots of dirty, ugly, foul-mouthed, sexist assholes who seem to not have any problem in getting laid and presentable, well-meaning guys that have something that make them unpalatable to the females.

The Incel thing seems to me more complicated than it seems. 

The thing is everyone thinks they are well meaning. Incels have entitled attitudes toward women that are certainly not well meaning.
 

Also a pro tip- women generally find it a huge red flag when a dude refers to them as “females”

[mormont]

2 hours ago, IFR said:

I think the autonomy of women has grown significantly over the last half century.

In some parts of the world, certainly. But even in those parts of the world, it's fair to say that their autonomy is more limited than that of men and there is a long way to go before they achieve full autonomy.

Which might sound like nitpicking, but I think is probably actually very relevant to the topic - the group of men we're talking about feel disempowered relative to both specific other men and women as a class, and harbour hatred towards them as a result. But the solutions some propose don't acknowledge that in fact, this perception is distorted. (As noted above, they also often don't account for the fact that the reactions these men have to their feelings of disempowerment are unacceptable and that needs to be tackled.)

2 hours ago, IFR said:

From what I've seen, while attitudes regarding women and relationships have seen a seismic shift, over that same period it has been much slower to change regarding men.

True, but I would argue that those attitudes are nevertheless changing, and that's not just about Marvel movies dominating the box office. I think that for at least thirty years, perceptions of appropriate male behaviour have been shifting in all sorts of ways. I spent years as a single parent, something that was almost unheard of for a man and often regarded with suspicion when I was a child myself but which was met with praise and positivity in the 2010s, when I was doing it. (Possibly rather too much positivity - I was often conscious that the social expectations on my parenting skills were lower than they would be for a single woman.)

2 hours ago, IFR said:

Even the term incel is pretty harmful.

But it's one they literally chose for themselves and choose to identify with. It doesn't reflect a healthy state of mind to do that, of course, but it's not something that the rest of the world thrust upon them.

[Varysblackfyre321]

On 8/17/2021 at 8:38 AM, Spockydog said:

Make up your mind, ffs.

Half an hour ago they were all 'on the spectrum'.

Then you reduced that to 'about a quarter of them'.

Now it's 'most of them are just deeply depressed'.

Which is it? Eh?

I mean, you complain about misinformation whilst coming out with mountains of crap. SMH.

 

They’re whatever crazy they need to be to distract from their conservative views concerning women.

Their misogynistic ideas concerning women aren’t  the issue and can be sympathized with./jk 

On 8/17/2021 at 11:07 AM, Conflicting Thought said:

He is both? I havent read any of his books but from what i see, He does tell them to clean their rooms and shit like that, but under  all that he spreads his horrible real message, that ultimately confirms the incels world view. 

Yeah kinda.

Indivualism is for the guys. Women need be collectivist so to be a prize for men to be a good.

in response to their mass killings he pontificates on how society used enforced monogamy to clamp down on violence.

His fans cried he wasn’t proposing government mandated wives but he’s not an idiot.

He knows all the bad shit can be done besides that incel fantasy: you know make it harder for people to divorce, slut-shame women more, make women who don’t show any interests towards being married to a man social outcasts, allow businesses to discriminate more based around sex.

Also it should be noted the crime rates in most developed have been decreasing for decades as women have been allowed to have more sexual freedom and access to contraceptives.

[Larry of the Lawn]

28 minutes ago, mormont said:

In some parts of the world, certainly. But even in those parts of the world, it's fair to say that their autonomy is more limited than that of men and there is a long way to go before they achieve full autonomy.

Which might sound like nitpicking, but I think is probably actually very relevant to the topic - the group of men we're talking about feel disempowered relative to both specific other men and women as a class, and harbour hatred towards them as a result. But the solutions some propose don't acknowledge that in fact, this perception is distorted. (As noted above, they also often don't account for the fact that the reactions these men have to their feelings of disempowerment are unacceptable and that needs to be tackled.)

True, but I would argue that those attitudes are nevertheless changing, and that's not just about Marvel movies dominating the box office. I think that for at least thirty years, perceptions of appropriate male behaviour have been shifting in all sorts of ways. I spent years as a single parent, something that was almost unheard of for a man and often regarded with suspicion when I was a child myself but which was met with praise and positivity in the 2010s, when I was doing it. (Possibly rather too much positivity - I was often conscious that the social expectations on my parenting skills were lower than they would be for a single woman.)

But it's one they literally chose for themselves and choose to identify with. It doesn't reflect a healthy state of mind to do that, of course, but it's not something that the rest of the world thrust upon them.

Very much this 

Also, here's some background on where that term comes from:

The Woman Who Coined The Term 'Incel'

[IFR]

38 minutes ago, mormont said:

In some parts of the world, certainly. But even in those parts of the world, it's fair to say that their autonomy is more limited than that of men and there is a long way to go before they achieve full autonomy.

This is true, but I would say it applies to both genders (and applies most prominently, of course, to those who transitioned from one biological gender to another). I think the attention a disparity deserves should be proportional to the magnitude of the disparity itself, irrespective of gender.

38 minutes ago, mormont said:

True, but I would argue that those attitudes are nevertheless changing, and that's not just about Marvel movies dominating the box office. I think that for at least thirty years, perceptions of appropriate male behaviour have been shifting in all sorts of ways. I spent years as a single parent, something that was almost unheard of for a man and often regarded with suspicion when I was a child myself but which was met with praise and positivity in the 2010s, when I was doing it. (Possibly rather too much positivity - I was often conscious that the social expectations on my parenting skills were lower than they would be for a single woman.)

Oh yes, I wouldn't dispute that gender norms for men are changing, too. They certainly aren't the same as a half century ago. I merely observed that the rate of change is much slower than for women right now, and this asymmetrical shift probably largely factors into the manifestation of the dysfunctional behaviors discussed in this thread.

38 minutes ago, mormont said:

But it's one they literally chose for themselves and choose to identify with. It doesn't reflect a healthy state of mind to do that, of course, but it's not something that the rest of the world thrust upon them.

I confess that I'm not deeply in touch with the incel movement as a group, so I'll accept this statement. However, in whatever capacity that name originated, it has evolved in common vernacular, much like many words describing a group of people historically changes to something offensive. It's now something commonly applied to any man who has trouble or shows disinterest in women. Some loner minding his own business? You can bet there will be women calling him an incel. It's not flattering, and it is this recent prevelent attitude that I think is a problem.

[Soylent Brown]

That's just paranoid nonsense. People aren't out there incel hunting, you're applying the label to yourself.

[IFR]

6 minutes ago, Soylent Brown said:

That's just paranoid nonsense. People aren't out there incel hunting, you're applying the label to yourself.

Wow, that was quick. You don't know me, and you felt comfortable to leap to a pretty insulting conclusion.

If you want to go ahead and explain my experiences as a woman to me and what they must mean, then I guess there's nothing stopping you. 

[Soylent Brown]

19 minutes ago, IFR said:

Wow, that was quick. You don't know me, and you felt comfortable to leap to a pretty insulting conclusion.

If you want to go ahead and explain my experiences as a woman to me and what they must mean, then I guess there's nothing stopping you. 

You've literally just posted that everyone is out there identifying incels, and I responded directly to that - Is there another conclusion I could have leapt to there? You're blanket applying the term to everyone who hasn't had sex in the last fifteen minutes, and then wondering why people might thing that's a little extreme?

[IFR]

17 minutes ago, Soylent Brown said:

You've literally just posted that everyone is out there identifying incels, and I responded directly to that - Is there another conclusion I could have leapt to there? You're blanket applying the term to everyone who hasn't had sex in the last fifteen minutes, and then wondering why people might thing that's a little extreme?

First, I worry that adrenaline may contaminate this discussion, I was stating my personal observations as related to the discussion. I have frequently observed what I stated. Incel has become an invective to make fun of awkward guys. Does everyone use the term? No, but it is a common word of derision now. I personally hear it a lot. I'm suggesting the attitude behind the recent manifestation of the word as an invective is a problem.

I'm not trying to discount your own personal experiences either. I know these discussions get heated, and while I'll admit I was kind of annoyed by your free presumption of my gender and sexual status, I don't bear you any ill will. No need to let this get emotional, right?

Friends?

[Soylent Brown]

Just now, IFR said:

First, I worry that adrenaline contaminate this discussion, I was stating my personal observations as related to the discussion. I have frequently observed what I stated. Incel has become an invective to make fun of awkward guys. Does everyone use the term? No, but it is a common word of derision now. I personally hear it a lot. I'm suggesting the attitude behind the recent manifestation of the word as an invective is a problem.

I'm not trying to discount your own personal experiences either. I know these discussions get heated, and while I'll admit I was kind of annoyed by your free presumption of my gender and sexual status, I don't bear you any ill will. No need to let this get emotionally, right?

Friends?

Sure. I'm not angry about anything, and bear you no ill will.

I have a problem with people trying to dilute words like that by blanket applying them, and thought that was what you were looking to do.

Lots of people struggle with relationships, or spend time alone, but that is not the same thing at all.

[IFR]

24 minutes ago, Soylent Brown said:

Lots of people struggle with relationships, or spend time alone, but that is not the same thing at all.

I think all categories of emotional dissatisfaction should be met with empathy. It becomes a social problem when violent and aberrant behavior emerges from this dissatisfaction. From my perspective, a large problem regarding men is their value as a human being is commonly attached to their success in relationships (and salary, etc.).  And so when a man feels unaccomplished in these areas, many will feel inadequate and externalize the "blame".

I think that if you remove these inadequacies, you will make good headway into removing the resultant hostile response. If a guy can't "get laid", this should be a social non-issue. If "no woman would want him", that should be considered perfectly acceptable, because there shouldn't be a need to receive validation by the approval of a given gender.

But I suspect this problem will persist for a good long while. As both mormont and Ran noted, I think gender disparities will continue for long, long time, especially if we don't confine our discussion to developed nations, but expand to places where it's truly abysmal (largely for women).