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Mystery Knight(s) In the Vale Tourney


Mister Smikes

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So we know GRRM likes the idea of a mystery knight.  We've had the Knight of Tears, the Knight of the Laughing Tree, the Gallows Knight and others.  It is a sort of (occasional) tradition in Westeros.  But we've yet to see a mystery knight in any of the tournaments that have occurred during the main events of the main series.

But now a tournament in the Vale is approaching.  Which I am guessing is the last tournament we will see in the main series.  Surely a mystery knight (or two?) will appear.

He will be seen, I suppose, through Sansa's eyes.  Sansa, as we learned very early on in AGOT is very good at knowing people by their heraldry and emblems.  But without these aids, she's not necessarily the most accurate or acute observer.

So what mystery knight(s) will appear in the Vale?  Who will it be, and just as importantly, who will Sansa think it is?  Will GRRM try to fool the reader too?

 

 

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2 hours ago, HoodedCrow said:

Perhaps there will be a knight from Tarth ( who will win the melee with a sword called Oathkeeper) and their one handed squire who will win the joust. Alayne will go missing.

Pod Payne seems left out of this scenario.  Dead?  Held by Stoneheart?

Speaking of Pod, I can imagine a scenario where a mystery knight is accompanied by a shy 12-year old squire, and the readers and/or Sansa are led to imagine this is Pod Payne, but it is actually Ned Dayne.  Sansa, btw, has met Pod briefly, but Pod kept his head down and never looked straight at her.

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On 8/18/2021 at 5:29 AM, Mister Smikes said:

So we know GRRM likes the idea of a mystery knight.  We've had the Knight of Tears, the Knight of the Laughing Tree, the Gallows Knight and others.  It is a sort of (occasional) tradition in Westeros.  But we've yet to see a mystery knight in any of the tournaments that have occurred during the main events of the main series.

But now a tournament in the Vale is approaching.  Which I am guessing is the last tournament we will see in the main series.  Surely a mystery knight (or two?) will appear.

He will be seen, I suppose, through Sansa's eyes.  Sansa, as we learned very early on in AGOT is very good at knowing people by their heraldry and emblems.  But without these aids, she's not necessarily the most accurate or acute observer.

So what mystery knight(s) will appear in the Vale?  Who will it be, and just as importantly, who will Sansa think it is?  Will GRRM try to fool the reader too?

 

 

It speaks volumes on the amounts of crazy theories in here that I thought you were gonna speculate about the Knight of the Laughing Three showing up in the tourney and Sansa learning that it was Baelish all along.

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On 8/18/2021 at 12:18 PM, Mister Smikes said:

Speaking of Pod, I can imagine a scenario where a mystery knight is accompanied by a shy 12-year old squire, and the readers and/or Sansa are led to imagine this is Pod Payne, but it is actually Ned Dayne.  Sansa, btw, has met Pod briefly, but Pod kept his head down and never looked straight at her.

I'm not sure if you are pulling a leg here with Pod, Ned and Arya.  I don't see any of them showing up, to do what?

I think there is a mystery around Ser Shadrich.  I've been wondering for a while now how GRRM intends to introduce Howland Reed back into the story and whether or not he has already made an appearance.  We were told that Howland would show up in TWOW and we have Alayne/Sansa's chapter with the mad mouse making an appearance.   Howland has sent his kids off to help Bran off across the Wall and the next successor to Winterfell is Sansa.   It wouldn't surprise me if Howland is on a mission is to protect Sansa. 

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1 hour ago, LynnS said:

 I've been wondering for a while now how GRRM intends to introduce Howland Reed back into the story and whether or not he has already made an appearance.  We were told that Howland would show up in TWOW and we have Alayne/Sansa's chapter with the mad mouse making an appearance.   Howland has sent his kids off to help Bran off across the Wall and the next successor to Winterfell is Sansa.   It wouldn't surprise me if Howland is on a mission is to protect Sansa. 

I'm all but sure we will meet howland in the epilogue of the last book.

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2 hours ago, LynnS said:

I'm not sure if you are pulling a leg here with Pod, Ned and Arya.  I don't see any of them showing up, to do what?

Well, I am not trying to pull anyone's leg.  And I would like this thread to be a sort of brainstorm session. where people throw out ideas, and no-one feels any particular pressure to defend them to the death.

I have no particular expectation that Arya will show up in the Vale as a mystery knight.  And given her skills as a faceless assassin, she has no particular need for the "mystery knight" tradition to hide her identity.  But I don't claim to have all the answers and am just looking for ideas.  If she did come, I guess it would be to kill someone.  Who?  I don't know.  It might depend on who else is coming.

I'm not kidding about Ned or Pod at all.  Both are squires.  Squires serve knights.  Knights go to tournaments.  Mystery Knights sometimes have squires, and since the identity of the squire might be a clue or red herring as to the identity of the knight, such issues could come into play.  Did not the Gallows Knight take steps to make his squire less recognizable?  There are so many curious parallels between Ned and Pod that I find it hard not to suspect they are being set up to be confused with each other.

2 hours ago, LynnS said:

I think there is a mystery around Ser Shadrich.  I've been wondering for a while now how GRRM intends to introduce Howland Reed back into the story and whether or not he has already made an appearance. 

So are you suggesting that an undersized mystery knight will appear, and that it will be Howland Reed incognito?  And are you maybe suggesting that Shadrich is another of his aliases?

Or maybe the purpose of Shadrich is to mislead viewers into suspecting that the undersized mystery knight is Shadrich when it is actually Howland.

2 hours ago, LynnS said:

We were told that Howland would show up in TWOW ....

I don't think GRRM ever actually said that.  But I'm not opposed to the idea.

2 hours ago, LynnS said:

and we have Alayne/Sansa's chapter with the mad mouse making an appearance.   Howland has sent his kids off to help Bran off across the Wall and the next successor to Winterfell is Sansa.   It wouldn't surprise me if Howland is on a mission is to protect Sansa. 

I wonder who at the Tourney would recognize Howland Reed, where he to remove his Helm.

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1 hour ago, Mister Smikes said:

Or maybe the purpose of Shadrich is to mislead viewers into suspecting that the undersized mystery knight is Shadrich when it is actually Howland.

I think Shadrich might be one of Howland's alias' .

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1 hour ago, LynnS said:

I think Shadrich might be one of Howland's alias' .

That alias might suffice for now.  But if there is someone at the tourney who might recognize him, and if he does not want to be recognized, he might be tempted to make use of the mystery knight tradition and play with his visor lowered and his name concealed.

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15 hours ago, Mister Smikes said:

Well, I am not trying to pull anyone's leg.  And I would like this thread to be a sort of brainstorm session. where people throw out ideas, and no-one feels any particular pressure to defend them to the death.

I have no particular expectation that Arya will show up in the Vale as a mystery knight.  And given her skills as a faceless assassin, she has no particular need for the "mystery knight" tradition to hide her identity.  But I don't claim to have all the answers and am just looking for ideas.  If she did come, I guess it would be to kill someone.  Who?  I don't know.  It might depend on who else is coming.

I'm not kidding about Ned or Pod at all.  Both are squires.  Squires serve knights.  Knights go to tournaments.  Mystery Knights sometimes have squires, and since the identity of the squire might be a clue or red herring as to the identity of the knight, such issues could come into play.  Did not the Gallows Knight take steps to make his squire less recognizable?  There are so many curious parallels between Ned and Pod that I find it hard not to suspect they are being set up to be confused with each other.

So are you suggesting that an undersized mystery knight will appear, and that it will be Howland Reed incognito?  And are you maybe suggesting that Shadrich is another of his aliases?

Or maybe the purpose of Shadrich is to mislead viewers into suspecting that the undersized mystery knight is Shadrich when it is actually Howland.

I don't think GRRM ever actually said that.  But I'm not opposed to the idea.

I wonder who at the Tourney would recognize Howland Reed, where he to remove his Helm.

Brienne would be an interesting possibility as a mystery knight, and an appearance by Podrick could be a hint in that direction.  If she wanted to participate, it would have to be as a mystery knight as, being a woman, she would be ineligible to participate otherwise. 

Jaime and Sandor, already mentioned, are interesting possibilities as well.  And I have seen suggestions about Brynden Tully, the Blackfish, showing up as well.  The problem with these three is that access to the Vale is only by ship, and all three are easily recognizable, meaning their presence would become widely known.  Although I suppose their presence could be a red herring for a mystery knight that turned out to be someone else.

Speaking of red herrings, that's what I think Ser Shadrick is.  I don't believe for a second that he is Howland Reed.  His earlier actions make no sense if he is.  Traveling alone across a war zone to help/rescue Sansa?  Who, by the way, has never met him and has no reason to trust him.  Not likely.  My suspicion is that he is in the Neck helping Northern stragglers and survivors of the Red Wedding get back home.  By himself, he really can do nothing useful for Sansa. 

Sansa most likely saw Podrick on a near daily basis during her marriage to Tyrion, so I expect she would have no trouble recognizing him.  Sansa and the other spectators could gain no info from his presence, though, as they would have no idea who he currently serves.   I can see no reason for Edric Dayne to make an appearance.   I also expect Arya to still be in Braavos. 

My personal wild brainstorm: Tyrek Lannister.  He is already mysteriously MIA.  Many readers suspect he was kidnapped or placed into hiding because he had valuable information.  If so, a tournament would be a suitably public and well-attended event to resurface at, and being a mystery knight would attract attention to whatever he had to say.  While I don't necessarily expect this to happen, it would be quite interesting if it did.

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10 hours ago, Nevets said:

Brienne would be an interesting possibility as a mystery knight, and an appearance by Podrick could be a hint in that direction. 

Right.  But conversely, if the shy squire we think is Pod were really Ned, this hint might be a red herring.  Brienne is not the only 6'8"+ warrior with half a face out there.

I'm suspecting, though, that if Brienne shows up, it won't be with Pod; just as if Sandor shows up, it won't be while wearing the Hound Helm and riding Stranger.  The circumstances could mislead us, rather than cue us in.

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If she wanted to participate, it would have to be as a mystery knight as, being a woman, she would be ineligible to participate otherwise. 

Could be.  But she has participated in a tournament as a woman before.

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Jaime and Sandor, already mentioned, are interesting possibilities as well. 

Yep.  Sandor would be that other 6'8"+ warrior with half a face.

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And I have seen suggestions about Brynden Tully, the Blackfish, showing up as well.  

A good thought.  When is that guy finally going to do something?

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The problem with these three is that access to the Vale is only by ship, and all three are easily recognizable, meaning their presence would become widely known. 

I'm not sure Sandor is so easily recognizable any more.  His face has been reinjured and rehealed by the hand of the Elder Brother, whose skill is thought miraculous.

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Although I suppose their presence could be a red herring for a mystery knight that turned out to be someone else.

Yes.  For instance, the Hound Helm could certainly make an appearance, regardless of who is in it.

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Speaking of red herrings, that's what I think Ser Shadrick is.  I don't believe for a second that he is Howland Reed.  His earlier actions make no sense if he is.  Traveling alone across a war zone to help/rescue Sansa?  Who, by the way, has never met him and has no reason to trust him.  Not likely.  My suspicion is that he is in the Neck helping Northern stragglers and survivors of the Red Wedding get back home.  By himself, he really can do nothing useful for Sansa. 

I don't recall Shadrick's exact words, but my impression was that he was hunting Sansa for the bounty, and made no secret of this either.

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Sansa most likely saw Podrick on a near daily basis during her marriage to Tyrion, so I expect she would have no trouble recognizing him. 

Thye've been in each other's presence alot, sure, but they've only spoken once that I recall.  And if Sansa is on the stands and Ned is on the ground, she might not be able to see his face easily, especially if he wears a broad-rimmed hat as did the squire of the Gallows Knight.

Due to the sheer number of curious parallels between Ned and Pod, her very familiarity with Pod might mislead her.  What if she overhears Ned say he once saved his Lord by pulling him out of a rive battle with fiery missiles.  She might think, "OMG, that Pod?"'

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Sansa and the other spectators could gain no info from his presence, though, as they would have no idea who he currently serves.   

The point in this case would be to mislead the reader.  It is easy enough to fool the characters.

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I can see no reason for Edric Dayne to make an appearance. 

Where else in particular should he be, other than "as far away from Stoneheart as possible""

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 I also expect Arya to still be in Braavos. 

My personal wild brainstorm: Tyrek Lannister.  He is already mysteriously MIA.  Many readers suspect he was kidnapped or placed into hiding because he had valuable information.  If so, a tournament would be a suitably public and well-attended event to resurface at, and being a mystery knight would attract attention to whatever he had to say.  While I don't necessarily expect this to happen, it would be quite interesting if it did.

Thanks for that.  Does Tyrek have any Tourney skills to speak of?  Or do you expect him to show up as a squire.

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On 8/21/2021 at 2:48 PM, Mister Smikes said:

That alias might suffice for now.  But if there is someone at the tourney who might recognize him, and if he does not want to be recognized, he might be tempted to make use of the mystery knight tradition and play with his visor lowered and his name concealed.

I think he said he won't be competing in the joust and a good melee is the best one can hope.  It doesn't sound like he wants to be one of Robin's winged knights.  If Ser Shadrich is Howland rather than one of Varys' spies; then my guess is that he is there to protect Sansa in some way, since his allegiance is to House Stark and he will attach himself to her in some capacity. He could be there to make sure that no other bounty hunter runs off with her.  Nor do I see him running off with her in the near future.  Where would they go?  I think Sansa is destined to become the heir to the Eyrie and Winterfell.  So I don't see him in the role of mystery knight at this tourney.

So I'm not sure what a mystery knight brings to the party other than entertainment.  

 

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3 hours ago, LynnS said:

I think he said he won't be competing in the joust and a good melee is the best one can hope. 

"A good melee is all a hedge knight can hope for, unless he stumbles on a bag of dragons. And that's not likely, is it?"

Note the sly reference to stumbling on a bag of dragons.  Since Shadrich appears to be a bounty hunter, I took this as a sly reference to his hope that he will earn a bag of dragons by catching Sansa.  And he did not actually answer Alayne's question, and say whether or not he would be competing in the melee or not.

The text explicitly notes that he is small enough to pass for a squire.  Brienne briefly mistook him for Pod at one point.  I wonder if anything will come of that.

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It doesn't sound like he wants to be one of Robin's winged knights.  If Ser Shadrich is Howland rather than one of Varys' spies; then my guess is that he is there to protect Sansa in some way, since his allegiance is to House Stark and he will attach himself to her in some capacity. He could be there to make sure that no other bounty hunter runs off with her.  Nor do I see him running off with her in the near future.  Where would they go?  I think Sansa is destined to become the heir to the Eyrie and Winterfell.  So I don't see him in the role of mystery knight at this tourney.

If Shadrich is a selfless noble savior trying to pass himself off as a cynical bounty hunter, he's doing a pretty good job.  That sly reference to a bag of dragons was not even one that Alayne was meant to understand.

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So I'm not sure what a mystery knight brings to the party other than entertainment.  

I'm not sure that a mystery knight scenario necessarily adds anything to the Shadrich situation.  If Shadrich is Howland, he already has an alias, so it is not clear why he would need hide his face under his helm as a mystery knight on top of that.  That's why I asked if there was anyone at the Tourney  who might recognize Howland's face.

But Shadrich (or Howland) might disguise himself as a squire if it helped him get close to Sansa.

Anyhow, this thread was about a possible mystery knight at the Vale tourney.  It's fine if you think that has nothing to do with Shadrich or Howland  But it is the topic of this thread.

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