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DireWolfSpirit

International Events VII- Afghan Catastrophe

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10 minutes ago, Fez said:

France is even angrier about the AUKUS announcement than I would've guessed...

 

Missed this, just shared in the US thread. Quite the reaction. 

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10 minutes ago, Fez said:

France is even angrier about the AUKUS announcement than I would've guessed...

Even their ambassadors retreat immediately.

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2 hours ago, Ran said:

France is outside the norm of the EU for having any Pacific territories to speak of. I can kind of understand their annoyance, but the reality is that their involvement in the EU would greatly complicate any defense pact that included France

It took this comment for me to realize there was a potential defense pact involved. The first headlines I saw in the French press focused on the fact that the defense industry lost the "deal of the century" ; 35 billion euros and hundreds of jobs. And specifically, 8 billion for a company called "Naval Group," that's 60% owned by the French state itself.
Sure, the way it was done adds insult to injury (hence the diplomatic "crisis," that I see as fake outrage, quite frankly), but I'd say it seems that, on the French side, this was always about making a big sale and not much more. There wasn't going to be any major transfer of technology (the press had made that very clear when the deal was initially sealed), and, as you say, France wasn't going to invest in the region, strategically speaking (it has neither the will nor the resources). BTW, New-Caledonia may very well become independent next year, or seriously autonomous at the very least, as there's a referendum about that coming up.
In a nutshell, the US is no doubt offering Australia more for its money, and everyone knows that. Just as everybody knows that neither France nor the EU intend to seriously stand up to China in the near future. Way I see it, the fake outrage is i) because France is a pretty big arms dealer, the government and the defense industry don't want that kind of thing to repeat itself, so they have to make a point, and ii) maybe they're hoping to get some kind of compensation. I have a few anecdotes about the corruption and kickbacks that defense deals imply in France (our political class is shamelessly corrupt).
Also, for all we know, this whole thing is payback for something else. France has always been a reluctant NATO partner (Trump hurt that alliance badly: Macron even pronounced it "dead" in 2019), while historically pushing for a stronger European military alliance independent of the US. I dunno how true that is (I have this idea that @Hereward will know that), but there's a perception here that the UK was an obstacle to that.

 

Edited by Rippounet

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14 minutes ago, Rippounet said:


Sure, the way it was done adds insult to injury (hence the diplomatic "crisis," that I see as fake outrage, quite frankly), but I'd say it seems that, on the French side, this was always about making a big sale and not much more. There wasn't going to be any major transfer of technology (the press had made that very clear when the deal was initially sealed), and, as you say, France wasn't going to invest in the region, strategically speaking (it has neither the will nor the resources). BTW, New-Caledonia may very well become independent next year, or seriously autonomous at the very least, as there's a referendum about that coming up.
...

I'm glad that's the view from the French side. I think that's overwhelmingly the view here on the Australian side too. I'd previously heard no mention of any strategic partnership, and I tend to follow the news pretty closely. Think most people here will view it as a calculated overreaction and hard to take seriously. The US deal is being sold as far more about the US taking a more active role in the pacific.

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12 hours ago, DMC said:

Even their ambassadors retreat immediately.

Stupid comment. MAGA Style

12 hours ago, JEORDHl said:

Missed this, just shared in the US thread. Quite the reaction. 

Correct reaction. What the US and there lapdogs, the UK and Australia, have done is way worse business behavior than anything China has shown towards France for that matter. 

There was a contract since 2016, a very substantial contract. The damage done is enormous. My company is affected as well, as we provided the gensets. It‘s ok though, not a major loss. But be assured: this is how you destroy partnerships. 

This is typical American business behavior, as Germany knows too well (Echelon etc). Bullying and taking every legal or illegal advantage. You are worse business partners than Russians or Chinese, from a correctness point of view.

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3 hours ago, Arakan said:

Stupid comment. MAGA Style

It was a joke.  Admittedly an old joke - albeit I did not know it qualified as a "meme" - but I couldn't help myself.  And if we're complaining about xenophobic comments, the litany you've directed at Americans is beyond compare.

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Working in the shipbuilding industry, I can fully emphasize with the pain France must feel over losing such an enormous contract. Hopefully there could be some future offsets were they could recoup a slice of the lost business?

When it comes to a sub or ship there are hundreds of firms involved in the supply and parts chain. So even if one company gets the build contract there will be a myriad of other companies that will still benefit from a program the size of that supply contract, no one entity does it all on its own.

It's just a shame to see the bad blood that cut throat contractual infighting has caused between two great western powers.

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Only reason I knew about the US/UK/Australia deal is because the conservatives here were using it an another "example" of the PM's failure. Cause they're desperate. Everyone else was just confused at the idea of Canada being involved at all. We don't make subs, and we have no particular interests in the area. It was weird.

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13 hours ago, DMC said:

It was a joke.  Admittedly an old joke - albeit I did not know it qualified as a "meme" - but I couldn't help myself.  And if we're complaining about xenophobic comments, the litany you've directed at Americans is beyond compare.

Could have been worded better but he lists well known facts you can look up. There are more too.

Businesses need to be as careful with five eyes states as they are with China and the US is throwing it's weight around to give their businesses every unfair advantage they can. 

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Just now, kiko said:

Could have been worded better but he lists well known facts you can look up. There are more too.

......I wasn't referring to that one post.

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From their standpoint, Australia is not to blame here. If they get a significant better offer they can probably get out of the original contract. There is most likely a heavy compensation clause. Not sure who will footing the bill but I'm afraid that the Australian tax payer is paying double now.

I also can't help but remembering the original reporting were it has been hinted that the French offer was not exactly the best anyway. It also is not without irony that the one time France is not pushing nuclear power they are beaten by someone offering nucular to the Australians.

I think that the US gave the European army a big leg up. Thanks for nothing!

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18 hours ago, DMC said:

It was a joke.  Admittedly an old joke - albeit I did not know it qualified as a "meme" - but I couldn't help myself.  And if we're complaining about xenophobic comments, the litany you've directed at Americans is beyond compare.

Aha. Interesting. Xenophobia is thrown at me. Doesn’t matter. What matters is that the USA is a BULLY as bad as China or Russia or even worse because you are more powerful. You always want to have it your way. And the reason you throw xenophobia at me is because you simply don’t know the stuff or you cannot emphatize how it feels to be on the receiving end of US arrogance. North Stream 2 is another good example how you treat your „partners“ when they don’t „listen“ to you. Maybe inform yourself. 

In other news: the US revenge drone attack end of August (after the Kabul Airport bombing) that had killed 10 civilians, including 7 children, and no IS members, was a „tragic mistake“ as the Pentagon (Gen. McKenzie) now acknowledges. Well, the children are dead anyway but hey, the Pentagon said it was a mistake. So all is good and forgiven I guess. Go Team USA!

Edited by Arakan

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18 hours ago, DMC said:

It was a joke.  Admittedly an old joke - albeit I did not know it qualified as a "meme" - but I couldn't help myself.  And if we're complaining about xenophobic comments, the litany you've directed at Americans is beyond compare.

Another thing. The „it was a joke“ Defence…Are you aware how sick and tired many French are to be constantly ridiculed or portrayed as cowards? Are you aware how arrogant this joke is anyway. Why couldn’t you help yourself and had to make it anyway? Why? Ask yourself this. 

This „joke“ comes from the same mindset as many sexist or racists „jokes“ as well. All just harmless banter, with no ill will of course. The standard defence. Think about it a little bit. 
You want to portray yourself as a progressive and educated American, but use a typical MAGA joke. Why? And instead of just owning it, you throw at me xenophobia. Poor imperial USA, now their citizens face online xenophobic comments…not. 

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1 hour ago, Arakan said:

You want to portray yourself as a progressive and educated American, but use a typical MAGA joke.

Not sure where this one is coming from. What does it have to do with MAGA?

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17 minutes ago, kiko said:

Not sure where this one is coming from. What does it have to do with MAGA?

To make fun of France, surrender monkeys. I read it mostly from those affiliated with the Republicans or those „America is the greatest“ Crew. It’s a bad and insulting „joke“ anyway. 

Edited by Arakan

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5 minutes ago, Arakan said:

To make fun of France, surrender monkeys. I read it mostly from those affiliated with the Republicans or those „America is the greatest“ Crew. It’s a bad and insulting „joke“ anyway. 

Nah, making fun of France for surrendering is pretty much a universal joke enjoyed around the world I’m afraid.

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5 hours ago, kiko said:

From their standpoint, Australia is not to blame here. If they get a significant better offer they can probably get out of the original contract. There is most likely a heavy compensation clause. Not sure who will footing the bill but I'm afraid that the Australian tax payer is paying double now.

I also can't help but remembering the original reporting were it has been hinted that the French offer was not exactly the best anyway. It also is not without irony that the one time France is not pushing nuclear power they are beaten by someone offering nucular to the Australians.

I think that the US gave the European army a big leg up. Thanks for nothing!

You don't break a valid contract just because somebody else makes a better offer. I's a bit more complicated, though. Looks like the Australians had been unhappy with the deal for some time as the French not only kept missing deadlines but also reduced Australia's share of the production.

https://www.politico.eu/article/why-australia-wanted-out-of-its-french-sub-deal/

Fitting diesel engines to a submarine designed for a nuclear power plant might not have been the best idea to begin with. Has that ever been done successfully?

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