US Politics: Biden vs. Ron DeCardassian in the Delta quadrant

[Kalbear]

3 minutes ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

This seems to undercut the whole message of trying to empathize and treating the opposition respectfully to bring unity message you seemed to be going on about.

Yeah, that was what made me literally LOL. You should reach out to the other people and make sure that you try and find common ground - but don't make ME do it for gods sake

 

[DMC]

3 hours ago, IheartIheartTesla said:

In somewhat less depressing news, yet another poll out from California (PPI of California) showing Keep +19 (!). Hope it isnt a WI type of poll, which if you recall showed Biden up by +18 (I think that was Q-pac, not sure); but I am feeling a bit more confident of Newsom's chances.

Another good sign:

Quote

A survey of ballots that have actually been returned shows a similarly strong turnout among Democratic voters: Of the more than 4.6 million ballots that have been returned, Democrats account for 2.5 million, or 54 percent — a higher share than the 47 percent they make up on the voter rolls, according to Political Data Inc., a California-based firm.

Just under a quarter of the ballots returned come from registered Republicans, about in line with their share of overall voter registrations.

Registration statistics are an imperfect measure by which to judge the overall shape of an electorate, though they offer at least a proxy by which to measure the turnout efforts into which Newsom’s team has poured tens of millions of dollars.

 

[Varysblackfyre321]

2 hours ago, TsarGrey said:

You know... I could say the exact same thing. As a conservative. About liberals (in the American sense).

Also point to me one democrat currently or recently in office whose said America is not a democracy.

I can think of two Republican senators off the top of my head who’ve stated flatly the US is not a democracy.

[Zorral]

10 hours ago, Luzifer's right hand said:

My gut feeling still tells me that the best long term plan for people who can is to get the hell out of the US.

Where would you recommend these USians go?

Also, as to why we're in fascism or whatever you all want to label this hate-filled intolerant authoritarianism drive to power -- again it's because of 1) media/television, which nobody will do anything about due to freedum speech; 2) the Southernification of the whole country -- via tv, for that matter.  It's really not hard to figure out.

https://modelcitizen.substack.com/p/the-density-divide-and-the-southernification

And no, there is no negotiation and never has been with southerners.  That is Their pride, Their method.

[Varysblackfyre321]

30 minutes ago, DMC said:

Another good sign:

 

Agreed.

though any native Californian please don’t get complacent with this. Conservatives will turn up by Election Day.

It’s vital that Newsom be retained—but by double digits or near that. Anything less be seen as encouragement for the rights abandonment of democracy.

 

[Varysblackfyre321]

https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/biden-approval-rating/
Biden’s approval continues to collapse at a rate that would imply him eventually getting under 40 in a couple weeks.

I hope this is a temporary blip but I see nothing in sight to imply a change in trajectory.

[Ormond]

1 hour ago, TsarGrey said:

 

So how that's relevant? As people may know, I've also read another book, The Righteous Mind, which presents the moral foundations theory, but also stuff like "the elephant and the rider", a metaphor where, paraphrasing, the rider is our conscious mind and reasoning, whereas the elephant is the automatic processes.

Though it's not relevant in the larger scheme of things, I first have to say that I really hate the "elephant" and rider metaphor. Elephants are among the most rational and intelligent animals. I think the world would probably be a better place if it were run by Loxodonta africana and Elephas maximus rather than Homo sapiens. 

A lot of what you say fits my own personality and beliefs. But at this moment in history (and perhaps because I have reached the age of 70) the idea of trying to engage with Trumpists is just too tiring. I feel like people have been trying to deal with this for decades and it the polarization has just gotten worse, driven by the authoritarian right-wing side. I was a Republican until about 30 years ago. I am very grateful for the Liz Cheneys and Adam Kinzingers of the world. But there just don't seem to be enough of them any more for the Republican party to be worth saving. People like McConnell may occasionally make superficial pro-democracy remarks but they've sold their souls for lower tax rates. Reading your post makes me more depressed because it's hard to see how this can be fixed unless all those who are against the authoritarians, whether conservative, liberal, or socialist, first band together to defeat them at the ballot box. It's so hard to focus on the "common humanity" of those whose entire attitude seems to deny common humanity to anyone in the center, much less the left. 

[Varysblackfyre321]

33 minutes ago, Kaligator said:

Yeah, that was what made me literally LOL. You should reach out to the other people and make sure that you try and find common ground - but don't make ME do it for gods sake

 

It’s a fine example of the problems with regards to a lot of these spiels from conservatives for the need of empathy in the public square.

For many it only goes one way—liberals to conservatives.

there were hundreds of articles, documtries about the Obama-trump voters and how democrats lost the rust belts and countless calls from conservatives for liberal to humble themselves in face of their defeat and try to reach out to their opposition.

Liberals in many areas did.

When liberals won control of the federal government conservatives not only failed to reach out, denied the extent of their opposition’s existence and demanded liberals reach out to the opposition who lost.

[DMC]

14 minutes ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

Biden’s approval continues to collapse at a rate that would imply him eventually getting under 40 in a couple weeks.

I hope this is a temporary blip but I see nothing in sight to imply a change in trajectory.

It's dropped five points in a month...and your conclusion is it's going to drop >6 points in the next two weeks as Afghanistan fades in the news.  M'kay.

[Zorral]

Pretty hard  to listen to Those whose speech is about killing/raping/torturing/imprisoning/denying me and all those whom I love any rights at all.  O yah, and I, and those I love, should be enslaved.

BTW, why in hell should anybody in the USA be attentive to somebody who isn't a citizen, who, moreover, names him/her/their selves Czar, as to being nice and understanding about authoritarians and what they want and need? Why is it that always we are the ones who are to be understanding, sympathetic and respectful, when They never ever are and never have been, because, you know, that's what hatefilled authoritarians are about, never being tolerant and about hating.

[Varysblackfyre321]

1 minute ago, DMC said:

It's dropped five points in a month...and your conclusion is it's going to drop >6 points in the next two weeks as Afghanistan fades in the news.  M'kay.

I wouldn’t be surprised at this juncture if it did no.
It’s been a rather steady decline before the withdrawal and I don’t think it significantly affected the rate of decline. Looking on how much it was declining post and pre withdrawal there doesn’t appear to be much difference. The stability of Afghanistan wasn’t/isn’t  a top priority for most Americans.

[DMC]

3 minutes ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

It’s been a rather steady decline before the withdrawal

It really hasn't.  It dropped from 52.1 on July 2 to 51.1 on August 2.  One point is definitely not a "steady decline" by any reasonable definition.

5 minutes ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

The stability of Afghanistan wasn’t/isn’t  a top priority for most Americans.

Right it isn't.  But it still dominated the news for the last month - in a way that looked wholly bad for Biden.  And your conclusion is as that recedes his decline is going to be exacerbated?

[Arakan]

45 minutes ago, Ormond said:

Though it's not relevant in the larger scheme of things, I first have to say that I really hate the "elephant" and rider metaphor. Elephants are among the most rational and intelligent animals. I think the world would probably be a better place if it were run by Loxodonta africana and Elephas maximus rather than Homo sapiens. 

A lot of what you say fits my own personality and beliefs. But at this moment in history (and perhaps because I have reached the age of 70) the idea of trying to engage with Trumpists is just too tiring. I feel like people have been trying to deal with this for decades and it the polarization has just gotten worse, driven by the authoritarian right-wing side. I was a Republican until about 30 years ago. I am very grateful for the Liz Cheneys and Adam Kinzingers of the world. But there just don't seem to be enough of them any more for the Republican party to be worth saving. People like McConnell may occasionally make superficial pro-democracy remarks but they've sold their souls for lower tax rates. Reading your post makes me more depressed because it's hard to see how this can be fixed unless all those who are against the authoritarians, whether conservative, liberal, or socialist, first band together to defeat them at the ballot box. It's so hard to focus on the "common humanity" of those whose entire attitude seems to deny common humanity to anyone in the center, much less the left. 

Ormond, I feel you. And it’s the US electoral system which really fucks you (excuse my language). FPTP leaves you and people like you (normal conservatives) with basically no practicable options and solutions. You are like my mom who is a big Merkel-Fan but was afraid that the CDU will drift further to the right in 2015/16. But then the really hardcore nutjobs left the party and took over the AfD (which now is our rightwing extremist party, big Trump fans, anti-EU, anti-Muslim, xenophobic, German blood, anti-LGBT but more secret). They are in parliament but that’s ok, those people will always exist, let them play a bit. At least they couldn’t take over the mainstream party and push it more and more to the right from within. 

And this is the core issue. With a representative parliamentary system those fringe groups within the GOP (Tea Party, White Nationalists) could have been pushed out or would have tried to go their own way. Instead they infested your Republicans like cancer and now dominate the agenda. Extreme voices are always the loudest and with the greatest motivation. 

FPTP is a recipe for polarization and frustration. It is simply bad.

[Varysblackfyre321]

32 minutes ago, DMC said:

It really hasn't.  It dropped from 52.1 on July 2 to 51.1 on August 2.  One point is definitely not a "steady decline" by any reasonable definition.

Right it isn't.  But it still dominated the news for the last month - in a way that looked wholly bad for Biden.  And your conclusion is as that recedes his decline is going to be exacerbated?

It was dropping one point a week since August 2 and before the withdrawal.

Afghanistan’s takeover dominated the news since a week and half ago but since then Biden’s approval has gone down at the same rate as it did before the video of people clinging to planes.

[DMC]

2 minutes ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

It was dropping one point a week since August 2 and before the withdrawal.

....I really don't know what the hell you're talking about.  Afghanistan has dominated the news since ~August 10-12.  If you wanna say it dropped a point in the 10 days preceding that - August 2-August 12 - then fair enough.  But after that it's dropped four points in the three weeks in which Afghanistan has dominated the news.  Is some of that due to Biden's decreasing approval on covid?  Sure - and that is concerning.  But acting like that precipitous drop is not primarily due to the horrible news coming out of Afghanistan during that time is absurd.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

1 hour ago, Ormond said:

Though it's not relevant in the larger scheme of things, I first have to say that I really hate the "elephant" and rider metaphor. Elephants are among the most rational and intelligent animals. I think the world would probably be a better place if it were run by Loxodonta africana and Elephas maximus rather than Homo sapiens. 

A lot of what you say fits my own personality and beliefs. But at this moment in history (and perhaps because I have reached the age of 70) the idea of trying to engage with Trumpists is just too tiring. I feel like people have been trying to deal with this for decades and it the polarization has just gotten worse, driven by the authoritarian right-wing side. I was a Republican until about 30 years ago. I am very grateful for the Liz Cheneys and Adam Kinzingers of the world. But there just don't seem to be enough of them any more for the Republican party to be worth saving. People like McConnell may occasionally make superficial pro-democracy remarks but they've sold their souls for lower tax rates. Reading your post makes me more depressed because it's hard to see how this can be fixed unless all those who are against the authoritarians, whether conservative, liberal, or socialist, first band together to defeat them at the ballot box. It's so hard to focus on the "common humanity" of those whose entire attitude seems to deny common humanity to anyone in the center, much less the left. 

Yeah, we’re in a really weird place.  

“The best lack all conviction while the worst are full of passionate intensity”

We need to be able to talk to one another, to disagree in good faith.  But, the Trumpanistas are playing on our desire for rational governance and playing a game where they threaten to burn it all down if we don’t give them what they want… which appears to be to burn it all down.  

I wish there was a simple solution.

[Zorral]

In Texas a guy can now knock up a woman, force her to have an abortion and kill her and get a bounty.

By all mean, let us deluded believers in women civil an human rights listen with respect and sympathy to their disrespected point of view on the subject!

https://edition.cnn.com/2021/09/01/us/texas-open-carry-laws/index.html

No permit or training needed now to have a gun and carry it with you wherever you go.

 

[Luzifer's right hand]

1 hour ago, Zorral said:

Where would you recommend these USians go?

Also, as to why we're in fascism or whatever you all want to label this hate-filled intolerant authoritarianism drive to power -- again it's because of 1) media/television, which nobody will do anything about due to freedum speech; 2) the Southernification of the whole country -- via tv, for that matter.  It's really not hard to figure out.

https://modelcitizen.substack.com/p/the-density-divide-and-the-southernification

And no, there is no negotiation and never has been with southerners.  That is Their pride, Their method.

Depends on your ancestry I guess which could give you options.

[Zorral]

1 hour ago, Luzifer's right hand said:

Depends on your ancestry I guess which could give you options.

Which heritages provide a lesser authoritarian option?  I'd like to see a list. 

A friend in LA Cajun country has managed to get himself an Irish passport - citizenship, though the heritage that seems to have allowed that is anything but, shall we say, recent?  I mean not even among the long-time Irish communities of the East Coast cities like NYC, Boston, and so on.  His family farmed for generations in Indiana.

[Ivan Tsarevich]

3 hours ago, Arakan said:

so basically what you are saying is: try to understand and reason with people who are against LGBT rights and against abortion rights? Who are racist and xenophobic? Should I also reason with anti-vaxxers and Qanon fans?

Is there some other way to make them change their mind? Besides forcing them, that is.

3 hours ago, Arakan said:

Your post is in essence a well written strawman.

How so?

3 hours ago, Arakan said:

And please do not call me liberal, call me socialist

Noted.

2 hours ago, larrytheimp said:

Why would anyone possibly know this, lol?

Because I've said it before, and at least shared a link in the two months old discussion I mentioned and which I think some users here may have seen.

2 hours ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

This seems to undercut the whole message of trying to empathize and treating the opposition respectfully to bring unity message you seemed to be going on about.

Dude, I already reached out. I talked to you people, and said my piece. Make what you want of it. It's true that I don't actually trust any good to come out of this, but I think it may be within the realm of possibility.

Should that happen, my breath would've not been wasted.

2 hours ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

Again only the liberals need humble themselves and respond with courtesy to the proffesed sentiments of conservatives for the sake of unity.

Nah. I'm talking with you, at least politely if not with courtesy, right now. And may stop at any second.

I have at no point said that the Republicans don't also engage in the common-enemy identity politics. But I'm not talking with Republicans here, am I?

2 hours ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

But this statement does give the impression you’re primary grievance in terms of how many liberals and leftists engage with conservatives isn’t it’s ineffectiveness to moving them on any particular issue.

I do not have a primary grievance here. I replied to guy who said that dialogue was impossible. No, it's not.

2 hours ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

Its that you don’t like the tone of how the opposition speaks to your side.

Do you?

Also, I happen to think that the way your side speaks to mine may often not be effective.

2 hours ago, Ormond said:

Though it's not relevant in the larger scheme of things, I first have to say that I really hate the "elephant" and rider metaphor. Elephants are among the most rational and intelligent animals. I think the world would probably be a better place if it were run by Loxodonta africana and Elephas maximus rather than Homo sapiens.

That may not address your issue here adequately, but iirc, their intelligence was one reason why Haidt chose them.

2 hours ago, Ormond said:

A lot of what you say fits my own personality and beliefs. But at this moment in history (and perhaps because I have reached the age of 70) the idea of trying to engage with Trumpists is just too tiring. I feel like people have been trying to deal with this for decades and it the polarization has just gotten worse, driven by the authoritarian right-wing side. I was a Republican until about 30 years ago. I am very grateful for the Liz Cheneys and Adam Kinzingers of the world. But there just don't seem to be enough of them any more for the Republican party to be worth saving. People like McConnell may occasionally make superficial pro-democracy remarks but they've sold their souls for lower tax rates. Reading your post makes me more depressed because it's hard to see how this can be fixed unless all those who are against the authoritarians, whether conservative, liberal, or socialist, first band together to defeat them at the ballot box. It's so hard to focus on the "common humanity" of those whose entire attitude seems to deny common humanity to anyone in the center, much less the left.

Well, if the goal is to avoid worsening cycle and possibly even escalating violence, I think actually trying to reason with conservatives might be way to go. As far as it takes, anyway.

Also, while I guess the next paragraph might possibly come across as rude (it's not meant to, but I'm not in the mood to cater for possible perceived micro-agressions), I found your post nice to read, should that matter.

A general note both to you and the rest: if you don't want to engage with the conservatives, then don't. But I think that picking the common-enemy approach instead may only make things worse. You kind of lose the right to complain about the rising polarization if you willingly partake in it, I'd say.