Jump to content
Black Crow

Heresy 238 The Song of Sansa the Snow Queen

Recommended Posts

Welcome to Heresy , the latest episode of the long-running thread taking a slantwise look at the Song of Ice and Fire.

The last thread looked at Trouserless Bob Baratheon and questioned whether there may be more to him than at first appears. After a slow start the realisation came [take a bow Tucu] that he was the Summer King and having been put into the ground must in turn be followed by a Winter King in order to restore the balance in the face of the Dragons.

I’d like to continue this theme in a slightly different direction, by looking at Sansa the Snow Queen.

Substantially, Sansa has been seen in a negative light, used first by the Lannisters to help bring the Starks down and now [in the book] being apparently trained by Littlefinger to play the Game of Thrones. Now everybody knows that Littlefinger is a rotter and this is going to end badly, but as we miserable heretics also know, this is actually the Song of Ice and Fire.

There’s a bit of an unreliable hint as to the outcome in Sansa’s story arc as revealed to the mummers by GRRM, but as heretics we can also look rather at what has rightly been called the Snowflake Communion [Storm of Swords chapter 80 Sansa 7]

Sansa awakens to realise that it is snowing, dresses and goes outside:

She turned her face up to the sky and closed her eyes. She could feel the snow on her lashes, taste it on her lips. It was the taste of Winterfell. The taste of innocence. The taste of dreams.

When Sansa opened her eyes again, she was on her knees. She did not remember falling. It seemed to her that the sky was another shade of grey. Dawn, she thought. Another day. Another new day.

Realising there are no gods there whom she can pray to she commences building a model of Winterfell in the snow…

So exactly what happened there? Time has noticeably passed, and she has changed. She remembers Winterfell and she remembers she is a Stark. She stops being a victim at that point of course but something has changed and it feels akin to that snowflake that follows Jon, promising that it will dance with him anon.

Winter is Coming.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I’d agree that LF is a rotter, but even so, he can’t suppress the call, the pull, the essence (?) of Winterfell and the North in the children of Winterfell. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)

Alayne Stone as the snow maid and Alys Karstark as Winter's lady:

Quote

Petyr straightened his cloak. "Kissing a snow maid."

"You're supposed to kiss her." Sansa glanced up at Lysa's balcony, but it was empty now. "Your lady wife."

“I do. Lysa has no cause for complaint.” He smiled. “I wish you could see yourself, my lady. You are so beautiful. You’re crusted over with snow like some little bear cub, but your face is flushed and you can scarcely breathe. How long have you been out here? You must be very cold. Let me warm you, Sansa. Take off those gloves, give me your hands.”

Quote

The girl smiled in a way that reminded Jon so much of his little sister that it almost broke his heart. "Let him be scared of me." The snowflakes were melting on her cheeks, but her hair was wrapped in a swirl of lace that Satin had found somewhere, and the snow had begun to collect there, giving her a frosty crown. Her cheeks were flushed and red, and her eyes sparkled.

"Winter's lady." Jon squeezed her hand.

 

Edited by Tucu

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I had thought for a long time that the books were to end with Sansa alone in a fully snowed Winterfell, surrounded by Ghost, Summer, Nymeria and Shaggydog, while Jon, Bran, Arya and Rickon had died.

But for this picture to work it would have needed Greywind as well.

When Rob and Greywind got murdered, what did the Freys know that got forgotten?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
16 hours ago, Tucu said:

Alayne Stone as the snow maid and Alys Karstark as Winter's lady:

 

This of course is why we think GRRM has suppressed The She-Wolves of Wnterfell

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)
On 8/22/2021 at 12:49 PM, Black Crow said:

This of course is why we think GRRM has suppressed The She-Wolves of Wnterfell

That reminded me that Sansa might now be surrounded by her wolfling cousins, the offspring of Jocelyn Stark. Lyn with his bloody blade, wild Roland, quiet Wallace and Harry the Heir. The winged she-wolf with a pack (like Nymeria's)

Quote

Some of her little grey cousins were afraid of men, even dead men, but not her. Meat was meat, and men were prey. She was the night wolf

Quote

"When the snows fall and the white winds blow, the lone wolf dies, but the pack survives,"

 

Edited by Tucu

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Came across this interesting bit about the tri-partite soul.  I want to mention it before I forget about it.  Consider where Dany places the dragon eggs at Drogo's funeral - the head, the heart and the genitals which corresponds to the tri-partite soul - the rational, the spirited and the appetite.

Plato's Tripartite Soul Theory: Meaning, Arguments, and Criticism - Opinion Front 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, LynnS said:

Came across this interesting bit about the tri-partite soul.  I want to mention it before I forget about it.  Consider where Dany places the dragon eggs at Drogo's funeral - the head, the heart and the genitals which corresponds to the tri-partite soul - the rational, the spirited and the appetite.

Plato's Tripartite Soul Theory: Meaning, Arguments, and Criticism - Opinion Front 

Which one is the genital dragon?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
24 minutes ago, alienarea said:

Which one is the genital dragon?

The appetite of Viserys, the heart of Drogo and the mind of Rhaegar.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)

I keep thinking of Sansa when I read this passage:

Quote

A Storm of Swords - Bran II

"Because they're different," he insisted. "Like night and day, or ice and fire."

"If ice can burn," said Jojen in his solemn voice, "then love and hate can mate. Mountain or marsh, it makes no matter. The land is one."

"One," his sister agreed, "but over wrinkled."

I think the song of ice and fire can only be resolved when the land is one; ice to fire or north to south.  In the end, I think Sansa is the ice that has to burn, the hate that turns to love.  Her POV in the Alayne chapter shows a change from the girl who believed in romance stories to someone far more secretive, hardened and calculating, much less merciful.   She is becoming a she-wolf, winter's "Lady" in her thinking.

I'll be interested to see what happens in the melee and if Shadrich dispatches anyone.  If you want to know who is hunting Sansa; it seems to me that posing as a bounty hunter and offering to work with others for the spoils, would do the trick.

Edited by LynnS

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
23 hours ago, LynnS said:

I think the song of ice and fire can only be resolved when the land is one; ice to fire or north to south.  In the end, I think Sansa is the ice that has to burn, the hate that turns to love.  Her POV in the Alayne chapter shows a change from the girl who believed in romance stories to someone far more secretive, hardened and calculating, much less merciful.   She is becoming a she-wolf, winter's "Lady" in her thinking.

It could very well be, and that is the problem with the Dragons [and Azor Ahai] The land must be one, but at the moment "Winter's got no King" says Osha, on the one hand and on the other the Red Lot are tooling up for total war aimed at an everlasting Bonfire Summer.*

Looking at the children of Winterfell its easy to argue that Jon will emerge as the lost King of Winter. Yes, its also possible to argue for Bran, but I see him as more of a fulcrum holding the balance together, and anyway if it is Bran then what will poor jon do then? So that then turns to Sansa. Lady of Winterfell, mother of a bastard to keep the line going for next time. Or is there something more?

 

* it really beats me how some readers can see Our Mel as one of the good guys and how Azor Ahai will come again to save the day

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Mel is sort of an anti vaxxer . She thinks that she’s right religiously and her motives could be interpreted as good.( in a vicious world)

It may be that Sansa is the princess that was promised! Well, at least she makes a fair analogue to Q.E.1.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Melisandre has her good points as well as bad, just like any other character! She believes in what she is doing. She does have the ability to see futures and possible futures in the flames. Her fault lies in (perhaps) mistaken interpretations.

As for Sansa... I believe history is caught in a loop and is currently looping in reverse with many historical events occurring in reverse order. This reversal of historic events also means that results are being changed in significant ways. One of the "wrongs" that the author seems to be emphasizing is the passing over of eldest female heirs in favor of younger sons. Robb Stark is dead and if Jon is indeed Ned's son, he's still an illegitimate bastard. Even if he's Brandon's or Lyanna's, his birth is not legitimized, and I think we're giving him too much importance with regards to his position within the Stark family when Sansa is the rightful heir of Winterfell! 

If the author is reversing history with the express purpose of setting things "right" again, then perhaps reinstating primogeniture regardless of sex  is one of those wrongs being righted? Sansa inheriting Winterfell along with the title of Queen in the North may be an important ending to our story.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)

Another take on the snowflake communion: Sansa comes out near the end of the Night to an empty world purified by Snow:

Quote

The snow drifted down and down, all in ghostly silence, and lay thick and unbroken on the ground. All color had fled the world outside. It was a place of whites and blacks and greys. White towers and white snow and white statues, black shadows and black trees, the dark grey sky above. A pure world, Sansa thought. I do not belong here.

She "travels" on the snow making no sound and then remembers Winterfell:

Quote

Yet she stepped out all the same. Her boots tore ankle-deep holes into the smooth white surface of the snow, yet made no sound. Sansa drifted past frosted shrubs and thin dark trees, and wondered if she were still dreaming. Drifting snowflakes brushed her face as light as lover’s kisses, and melted on her cheeks. At the center of the garden, beside the statue of the weeping woman that lay broken and half-buried on the ground, she turned her face up to the sky and closed her eyes. She could feel the snow on her lashes, taste it on her lips. It was the taste of Winterfell. The taste of innocence. The taste of dreams.

Then when Dawn comes she (re)builds Winterfell:

Quote

When Sansa opened her eyes again, she was on her knees. She did not remember falling. It seemed to her that the sky was a lighter shade of grey. Dawn, she thought. Another day. Another new day. <...>

She pushed two of her snowballs together, added a third, packed more snow in around them, and patted the whole thing into the shape of a cylinder. When it was done, she stood it on end and used the tip of her little finger to poke holes in it for windows. The crenellations around the top took a little more care, but when they were done she had a tower. I need some walls now, Sansa thought, and then a keep. She set to work.

The snow fell and the castle rose. Two walls ankle high, the inner taller than the outer. Towers and turrets, keeps and stairs, a round kitchen, a square armory, the stables along the inside of the west wall. It was only a castle when she began, but before very long Sansa knew it was Winterfell.

 

Edited by Tucu

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)

Similar imagery in Theon's chapters. He is alone, kissed by ice, meets the Hooded man and enters an empty world.

Quote

Abel was singing “The Maids That Bloom in Spring.”

Outside the snow was coming down so heavily that Theon could not see more than three feet ahead of him. He found himself alone in a white wilderness, walls of snow looming up to either side of him chest high. When he raised his head, the snowflakes brushed his cheeks like cold soft kisses. He could hear the sound of music from the hall behind him. A soft song now, and sad. For a moment he felt almost at peace.

Quote

Theon trudged through the storm until his arms and legs were caked with snow and his hands and feet had gone numb from cold, then climbed to the battlements of the inner wall again. Up here, a hundred feet high, a little wind was blowing, stirring the snow. All the crenels had filled up. Theon had to punch through a wall of snow to make a hole … only to find that he could not see beyond the moat. Of the outer wall, nothing remained but a vague shadow and a few dim lights floating in the dark.

The world is gone. King's Landing, Riverrun, Pyke, and the Iron Islands, all the Seven Kingdoms, every place that he had ever known, every place that he had ever read about or dreamed of, all gone. Only Winterfell remained.

 

Edited by Tucu

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)

And on Asha's but with some twists:

Quote

She was lost before she had gone ten yards. Asha could see the beacon fire burning atop the watchtower, a faint orange glow floating in the air. Elsewise the village was gone. She was alone in a white world of snow and silence, plowing through snowdrifts as high as her thighs. "Justin?" she called. There was no answer. Somewhere to her left she heard a horse whicker. The poor thing sounds frightened. Perhaps he knows that he's to be tomorrow's supper. Asha pulled her cloak about her tightly.

She blundered back onto the village green unknowing. The pinewood stakes still stood, charred and scorched but not burned through. The chains about the dead had cooled by now, she saw, but still held the corpses fast in their iron embrace. A raven was perched atop one, pulling at the tatters of burned flesh that clung to its blackened skull. The blowing snow had covered the ashes at the base of the pyre and crept up the dead man's leg as far as his ankle. The old gods mean to bury him, Asha thought. This was no work of theirs.

The Old Gods bury the burnt body in snow, but the burning and killing was not their work.

Edited by Tucu

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, HoodedCrow said:

Mel is sort of an anti vaxxer . She thinks that she’s right religiously and her motives could be interpreted as good.( in a vicious world)

It may be that Sansa is the princess that was promised! Well, at least she makes a fair analogue to Q.E.1.

I had my first vax (Pfizer) in April when there was a shortage of vaccine in Canada.  But I went right away.  The second shot was scheduled in Sept.  I was able to get my 2nd short earlier than scheduled and I didn't have to mix with Moderna as originally planned.  But because I had to wait so long; I'm not sure how protected I am at this point.  So I'm still isolating and masking at the store.  And expecting I'll need a 3rd booster at some point.  At least I didn't have to mix which seems to be an issue now.  I'm more concerned about kids under 12 who can't be vaxxed and I keep my distance from them because I don't know if I'm a risk to them.   I'm also concerned about people who can't be vaxxed and the notion that they will be banned from places like grocery stores.  This is absurd and cruel  in a population that is 80 or 90% vaccinated.  When this started, people didn't even have masks.  Yes, masking is effective.  Do you know anyone who has had a cold recently?

We can't afford another strain on long term care facilities and hospitals. Doctors and health care workers are exhausted and leaving the profession. We already have a doctor shortage in this country.  Kids have to get back to school and we all need to regain some sense of normality. 

People who don't want to be vaccinated will have to put up with nasal swabs until they get tired of having something shoved up their nose. 

That's my rant for the day. 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 minutes ago, LynnS said:

I had my first vax (Pfizer) in April when there was a shortage of vaccine in Canada.  But I went right away.  The second shot was scheduled in Sept.  I was able to get my 2nd short earlier than scheduled and I didn't have to mix with Moderna as originally planned.  But because I had to wait so long; I'm not sure how protected I am at this point.  So I'm still isolating and masking at the store.  And expecting I'll need a 3rd booster at some point.  At least I didn't have to mix which seems to be an issue now.  I'm more concerned about kids under 12 who can't be vaxxed and I keep my distance from them because I don't know if I'm a risk to them.   I'm also concerned about people who can't be vaxxed and the notion that they will be banned from places like grocery stores.  This is absurd and cruel  in a population that is 80 or 90% vaccinated.  When this started, people didn't even have masks.  Yes, masking is effective.  Do you know anyone who has had a cold recently?

We can't afford another strain on long term care facilities and hospitals. Doctors and health care workers are exhausted and leaving the profession. We already have a doctor shortage in this country.  Kids have to get back to school and we all need to regain some sense of normality. 

People who don't want to be vaccinated will have to put up with nasal swabs until they get tired of having something shoved up their nose. 

That's my rant for the day. 

 

The UK was doing 12 weeks between Pfizer doses when they had shortages. One of their studies showed that the optimal for antibodies and helper T-cells was 10 weeks. Now they are doing 8 weeks as standard.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 minutes ago, Tucu said:

The UK was doing 12 weeks between Pfizer doses when they had shortages. One of their studies showed that the optimal for antibodies and helper T-cells was 10 weeks. Now they are doing 8 weeks as standard.

My government is run by a bunch of morons.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)
8 hours ago, Black Crow said:

* it really beats me how some readers can see Our Mel as one of the good guys and how Azor Ahai will come again to save the day

I've actually found that most people find Mel an extremely unsympathetic character.  (Maybe it has to do with the constant begging to burn a child).  

Yet ironically, one of the most loved character's, Aemon, beliefs line up surprisingly well with Melisandre's.  He just thinks that she's chosen the wrong champion to get behind.  

One of the things that really irritates most people, is when I bring up the fact that Melisandre might be the closest parallel we have to Rhaegar in the current storyline.  Two type A personalities who are championing a messiah, and seem unable to allow prophecies to run their natural course.  And both are probably looking to the same source materials, assuming that Rhaegar took up where Aegon V left off.  

Edited by Frey family reunion

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.


×
×
  • Create New...