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Heresy 238 The Song of Sansa the Snow Queen


Black Crow

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7 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

I've actually found that most people find Mel an extremely unsympathetic character.  (Maybe it has to do with the constant begging to burn a child).  

Yet ironically, one of the most loved character's, Aemon, beliefs line up surprisingly well with Melisandre's.  He just thinks that she's chosen the wrong champion to get behind.  

One of the things that really irritates most people, is when I bring up the fact that Melisandre might be the closest parallel we have to Rhaegar in the current storyline.  Two type A personalities who are championing a messiah, and seem unable to allow prophecies to run their natural course.  And both are probably looking to the same source materials, assuming that Rhaegar took up where Aegon V left off.  

That's an interesting comparison which I'd find difficult to refute, but at the same time while there's a determination to burn people [including children] at the slightest excuse, its her predictions anent Azor Ahai that still have a tremendous hold on some people. As I mentioned earlier, its only when we move away from the mouldy old trope of the hidden hero pulling a sword from the stone that we can look at the real story hidden behind that smoke-screen

        

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It does seem implied that Aemon and Rhaegar had conversations whether written or in person regarding the prince that was promised prophecy and even about dragons. 

Jorah thought the prophecy of the PtwP was broken:

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A Clash of Kings - Daenerys V

Ser Jorah's frown deepened until his eyebrows came together. "Prince Rhaegar played such a harp," he conceded. "You saw him?"

She nodded. "There was a woman in a bed with a babe at her breast. My brother said the babe was the prince that was promised and told her to name him Aegon."

"Prince Aegon was Rhaegar's heir by Elia of Dorne," Ser Jorah said. "But if he was this prince that was promised, the promise was broken along with his skull when the Lannisters dashed his head against a wall."

"I remember," Dany said sadly. "They murdered Rhaegar's daughter as well, the little princess. Rhaenys, she was named, like Aegon's sister. There was no Visenya, but he said the dragon has three heads. What is the song of ice and fire?"

 

 

Maester Aemon connected the prince that was promised to the war for the dawn:

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A Storm of Swords - Samwell V

"You are." The woman rose in a swirl of scarlet silk, her long copper-bright hair tumbling about her shoulders. "Swords alone cannot hold this darkness back. Only the light of the Lord can do that. Make no mistake, good sers and valiant brothers, the war we've come to fight is no petty squabble over lands and honors. Ours is a war for life itself, and should we fail the world dies with us."

The officers did not know how to take that, Sam could see. Bowen Marsh and Othell Yarwyck exchanged a doubtful look, Janos Slynt was fuming, and Three-Finger Hobb looked as though he would sooner be back chopping carrots. But all of them seemed surprised to hear Maester Aemon murmur, "It is the war for the dawn you speak of, my lady. But where is the prince that was promised?"

"He stands before you," Melisandre declared, "though you do not have the eyes to see. Stannis Baratheon is Azor Ahai come again, the warrior of fire. In him the prophecies are fulfilled. The red comet blazed across the sky to herald his coming, and he bears Lightbringer, the red sword of heroes."

 

 

Aemon further connected the PtwP to dragons:

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A Feast for Crows - Samwell IV

Sam had never drunk rum before. The liquor was strange and heady; sweet at first, but with a fiery aftertaste that burned his tongue. He was tired, so tired. Every muscle he had was aching, and there were other aches in places where Sam hadn't known he had muscles. His knees were stiff, his hands covered with fresh new blisters and raw, sticky patches of skin where the old blisters had burst. Yet between them, rum and sadness seemed to wash his hurts away. "If only we could have gotten him to Oldtown, the archmaesters might have saved him," he told Gilly, as they sipped their rum on the Cinnamon Wind's high forecastle. "The healers of the Citadel are the best in the Seven Kingdoms. For a while I thought . . . I hoped . . ."

On Braavos, it had seemed possible that Aemon might recover. Xhondo's talk of dragons had almost seemed to restore the old man to himself. That night he ate every bite Sam put before him. "No one ever looked for a girl," he said. "It was a prince that was promised, not a princess. Rhaegar, I thought . . . the smoke was from the fire that devoured Summerhall on the day of his birth, the salt from the tears shed for those who died. He shared my belief when he was young, but later he became persuaded that it was his own son who fulfilled the prophecy, for a comet had been seen above King's Landing on the night Aegon was conceived, and Rhaegar was certain the bleeding star had to be a comet. What fools we were, who thought ourselves so wise! The error crept in from the translation. Dragons are neither male nor female, Barth saw the truth of that, but now one and now the other, as changeable as flame. The language misled us all for a thousand years. Daenerys is the one, born amidst salt and smoke. The dragons prove it." Just talking of her seemed to make him stronger. "I must go to her. I must. Would that I was even ten years younger."

The old man had been so determined that he had even walked up the plank onto the Cinnamon Wind on his own two legs, after Sam made arrangements for their passage. He had already given his sword and scabbard to Xhondo, to repay the big mate for the feathered cloak he'd ruined saving Sam from drowning. The only things of value that still remained to them were the books they had brought from the vaults of Castle Black. Sam parted with them glumly. "They were meant for the Citadel," he said, when Xhondo asked him what was wrong. When the mate translated those words, the captain laughed. "Quhuru Mo says the grey men will be having these books still," Xhondo told him, "only they will be buying them from Quhuru Mo. The maesters give good silver for books they are not having, and sometimes red and yellow gold."

 

 

I thought it was interesting that Jorah told Dany that he never heard of the song of ice and fire.

Quote

 

A Clash of Kings - Daenerys V

"Prince Aegon was Rhaegar's heir by Elia of Dorne," Ser Jorah said. "But if he was this prince that was promised, the promise was broken along with his skull when the Lannisters dashed his head against a wall."

"I remember," Dany said sadly. "They murdered Rhaegar's daughter as well, the little princess. Rhaenys, she was named, like Aegon's sister. There was no Visenya, but he said the dragon has three heads. What is the song of ice and fire?"

"It's no song I've ever heard."

 

 

 

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How did we get from Sansa to dragons and the prince that was promised? Should the Queen in the North be connected to a prophecy about defeating winter and bringing about an endless summer? Sansa's "communion" was with snow so she is the complete opposite of the "hero" that Melisandre is looking for.

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If Sadrich (sp) is looking for Sansa for a bounty paid by Lord (for the realm) Varys why does Varys want her? What purpose would it serve Varys to give her to Cersie?   

Would the only known living heir to WF better serve his purpose?   Perhaps a marriage alliance of WF; I.e. the North, to his protege better serve his plans?

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It seems likely that Sansa will have adventures, but ultimately be important. She resembles Q.E.1 in her storyline, somewhat and in her appearance. Although she may commune with snow:), she has auburn hair kissed by fire. Sansa is a Stark. I do not understand what their actual deal is with the Others. I can’t see Sansa wanting to rule over zombies, even though she is learning too be much colder as a personality. We have hints that she will grow into leadership. 

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12 minutes ago, LongRider said:

If Sadrich (sp) is looking for Sansa for a bounty paid by Lord (for the realm) Varys why does Varys want her? What purpose would it serve Varys to give her to Cersie?   

Would the only known living heir to WF better serve his purpose?   Perhaps a marriage alliance of WF; I.e. the North, to his protege better serve his plans?

Rugen/Varys, of course, told a dead man that he was doing it for the children

Puzzling over the identity of those children has ever been a favourite, but I don't think that anybody has ever contemplated it might be the children of Winterfell

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42 minutes ago, LongRider said:

If Sadrich (sp) is looking for Sansa for a bounty paid by Lord (for the realm) Varys why does Varys want her? What purpose would it serve Varys to give her to Cersie?   

Would the only known living heir to WF better serve his purpose?   Perhaps a marriage alliance of WF; I.e. the North, to his protege better serve his plans?

I think we can rule out at this point, Varys wanting to turn Sansa over to Cersei.  He's certainly acting against Cersei at this point in the story.

I think we'd have to look at the possibility that Varys is simply playing the Game of Thrones with Sansa, and wants to control the heir of Winterfell.  Of course if that's true, her main value lies in the fact that she's be available for marriage, and Tyrion's stubborn refusal to die creates a potential problem.  And it's a problem that Varys could have easily solved in the cellars of the Red Keep, and instead Varys freed Tryion and sent him across the sea to his friend.

So maybe the thought is to have both Tyrion and Sansa on their side?  

The other possibility is the higher mysteries, the song of ice and fire, and the part Sansa is to play,  

The darker possibility is that her life might be of value as a sacrifice of king's blood.  

Or she may hold the key to unlocking something magical in Winterfell.  Something only a Stark can unlock.  And as far as anyone knows, she's the last living Stark.

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In regards to Sansa as a "Winter Queen", I perused over the wiki entry of another Queen of Winter, Cailleach (Irish origin) aka Beira (Scottish origin).  And while at first glance there doesn't seem to be a strong connection, on second glance, there may be a few hints that this Gaelic goddess may be one of Sansa's inspirations.

One of the reasons that there doesn't seem to be a strong connection, is that Cailleach/Beira is depicted as an ugly crone.  But in some versions, she doesn't always start out that way.  In some versions of the myth she starts out in spring as a beautiful young maiden, who's looks fade as the seasons turn, and she turns spiteful and angry as she becomes a crone by winter.

So, there isn't a strong connection to Sansa here.  But there is one passage that caught my eye:

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In partnership with the goddess Brìghde, the Cailleach is seen as a seasonal deity or spirit, ruling the winter months between Samhainn (1 November or first day of winter) and Bealltainn (1 May or first day of summer), while Brìghde rules the summer months between Bealltainn and Samhainn.[17] Some interpretations have the Cailleach and Brìghde as two faces of the same goddess,[17] while others describe the Cailleach as turning to stone on Bealltainn and reverting to humanoid form on Samhainn in time to rule over the winter months. Depending on local climate, the transfer of power between the winter goddess and the summer goddess is celebrated any time between Là Fhèill Brìghde (1 February) at the earliest, Latha na Cailliche (25 March), or Bealltainn (1 May) at the latest, and the local festivals marking the arrival of the first signs of spring may be named after either the Cailleach or Brìghde.[17]

The part I put in bold was the one I found most interesting.  The idea that during the summer months, the winter goddess turns to stone, and only reverts to her true self when winter arrives.  That does fit our Sansa to a tee.  Sansa has turned into Stone, Alayne Stone, before winter has hit the Vale.   So if this bit holds true to form, expect Sansa to be revealed only after Winter has truly hit the Vale.

And there are a few more parallels.  Beira's throne is said to to be at the top of Ben Nevis, the tallest mountain in the UK.  So that lines up pretty well with Sansa's placement in the Eyrie.

Finally, there is supposedly a Scottish and Irish tradition, tied to the Winter Queen goddess, where a corn dolly is made of Cailleach and the last farmer to bring in their grain is the one that has to house "Cailleach" during the winter months.  I do wonder if Sansa going from one person's possession to another's may be a nod to this tradition.  Where the last Kingdom to bring in their harvest is the one that will house Sansa for the Winter months.  And it appears that the Vale is the last region that Winter may hit.

Edit:  On further reflection GRRM may be using both Sansa and Catelyn as different versions of the Gaelic, Winter Queen.  Because Cat's stoy arc does very much reflect the idea of Beira transforming from a beauty to a crone as Winter arrives.  Specifically Cat's story seems to echo the Beira/crone fairly well:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Hag_of_Beara

I am the Hag of Beare,
An ever-new smock I used to wear;
Today—such is my mean estate—-
I wear not even a cast-off smock.

The maidens rejoice
When May-day comes to them;
For me sorrow is meeter,
I am wretched, I am an old hag.

Amen! woe is me!
Every acorn has to drop.
After feasting by shining candles
To be in the gloom of a prayer

I had my day with kings,
Drinking mead and wine;
Today I drink whey-water
Among shriveled old hags[9]

 

 

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2 hours ago, LongRider said:

If Sadrich (sp) is looking for Sansa for a bounty paid by Lord (for the realm) Varys why does Varys want her? What purpose would it serve Varys to give her to Cersie?   

Would the only known living heir to WF better serve his purpose?   Perhaps a marriage alliance of WF; I.e. the North, to his protege better serve his plans?

If Shadrich turns out to be Howland, then he's only using the excuse of the bounty as cover.

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1 hour ago, Frey family reunion said:

In regards to Sansa as a "Winter Queen", I perused over the wiki entry of another Queen of Winter, Cailleach (Irish origin) aka Beira (Scottish origin).  And while at first glance there doesn't seem to be a strong connection, on second glance, there may be a few hints that this Gaelic goddess may be one of Sansa's inspirations.

One of the reasons that there doesn't seem to be a strong connection, is that Cailleach/Beira is depicted as an ugly crone.  But in some versions, she doesn't always start out that way.  In some versions of the myth she starts out in spring as a beautiful young maiden, who's looks fade as the seasons turn, and she turns spiteful and angry as she becomes a crone by winter.

So, there isn't a strong connection to Sansa here.  But there is one passage that caught my eye:

The part I put in bold was the one I found most interesting.  The idea that during the summer months, the winter goddess turns to stone, and only reverts to her true self when winter arrives.  That does fit our Sansa to a tee.  Sansa has turned into Stone, Alayne Stone, before winter has hit the Vale.   So if this bit holds true to form, expect Sansa to be revealed only after Winter has truly hit the Vale.

And there are a few more parallels.  Beira's throne is said to to be at the top of Ben Nevis, the tallest mountain in the UK.  So that lines up pretty well with Sansa's placement in the Eyrie.

Finally, there is supposedly a Scottish and Irish tradition, tied to the Winter Queen goddess, where a corn dolly is made of Cailleach and the last farmer to bring in their grain is the one that has to house "Cailleach" during the winter months.  I do wonder if Sansa going from one person's possession to another's may be a nod to this tradition.  Where the last Kingdom to bring in their harvest is the one that will house Sansa for the Winter months.  And it appears that the Vale is the last region that Winter may hit.

Edit:  On further reflection GRRM may be using both Sansa and Catelyn as different versions of the Gaelic, Winter Queen.  Because Cat's stoy arc does very much reflect the idea of Beira transforming from a beauty to a crone as Winter arrives.  Specifically Cat's story seems to echo the Beira/crone fairly well:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Hag_of_Beara

I am the Hag of Beare,
An ever-new smock I used to wear;
Today—such is my mean estate—-
I wear not even a cast-off smock.

The maidens rejoice
When May-day comes to them;
For me sorrow is meeter,
I am wretched, I am an old hag.

Amen! woe is me!
Every acorn has to drop.
After feasting by shining candles
To be in the gloom of a prayer

I had my day with kings,
Drinking mead and wine;
Today I drink whey-water
Among shriveled old hags[9]

 

 

I like this very much, and it also brought to mind Lyanna's statue in the crypts. The winter queen that never was.

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9 minutes ago, Melifeather said:

I like this very much, and it also brought to mind Lyanna's statue in the crypts. The winter queen that never was.

I like this.  Of course in the myth, the winter queen transforms from stone to her true self when winter actually arrives.  So I wonder, if we’re going to see a version of Lyanna reborn.

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6 minutes ago, Frey family reunion said:

I like this.  Of course in the myth, the winter queen transforms from stone to her true self when winter actually arrives.  So I wonder, if we’re going to see a version of Lyanna reborn.

Well, she's not my favorite identity for Septa Lemore, but I guess its possible.

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1 hour ago, Frey family reunion said:

In regards to Sansa as a "Winter Queen", I perused over the wiki entry of another Queen of Winter, Cailleach (Irish origin) aka Beira (Scottish origin).  And while at first glance there doesn't seem to be a strong connection, on second glance, there may be a few hints that this Gaelic goddess may be one of Sansa's inspirations.

I had wondered about an Cailleach as a model for Sansa, but was slightly put off by the direct translation as "the hag" although it can also mean "the veiled one". On the whole though the parallels are good and while we're looking for a King of Winter, there's no reason why there shouldn't also be a Queen, especially if she is his (half) sister. 

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Sansa builds her Winterfell next the remains of another stone queen:

Quote

At the center of the garden, beside the statue of the weeping woman that lay broken and half-buried on the ground, she turned her face up to the sky and closed her eyes. She could feel the snow on her lashes, taste it on her lips. It was the taste of Winterfell. The taste of innocence. The taste of dreams.

That is the statue of Alyssa Arryn toppled by Bronn and Vardis (Lysa's champion died with the queen on top). By Alayne I AFFC Alyssa's Tears have frozen:

Quote

When she had first come to Eyrie, there had been the murmur of Alyssa's Tears as well, but the waterfall was frozen now

 

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2 hours ago, Black Crow said:

I had wondered about an Cailleach as a model for Sansa, but was slightly put off by the direct translation as "the hag" although it can also mean "the veiled one". On the whole though the parallels are good and while we're looking for a King of Winter, there's no reason why there shouldn't also be a Queen, especially if she is his (half) sister. 

Certainly Cat fits the crone aspect of Cailleach while Sansa is set up to be transformed from stone to Queen.  So if GRRM is using both characters to reference this Gaelic Winter Queen, does that suggest something?

Catelyn is still in possession of Robb’s crown.  Catelyn also knows the contents of Robb’s will.  She is intent on seeking vengeance not just on the Freys but on the Boltons as well.  So presumably she still has her eyes on Winterfell.  

Presumably Littlefinger’s plans for Sansa still involves Winterfell.  And as discussed earlier, Sansa still seems very connected to Winterfell.  I like Tucu’s observations that Sansa rebuilds her Winterfell in the Dawn.  

And then we have Jon, who before the time of his “death” was still struggling with his desire to take Winterfell for his own.

I think we can probably take Bran and Arya out of the running.  As for Rickon, I honestly have no idea where George is going with him.  Does Davos bring Rickon into the fold for Stannis?

But if we take parts of the mummer’s show into account, what we’re probably seeing is an upcoming conflict for Winterfell between Jon and Sansa, with Cat presumably taking the side of her daughter.

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Speaking of Sansa as a Winter Queen, could George be influenced at all by the historical Winter Queen, Elizabeth Stuart, who was supposed to be a pawn in Guy Fawkes’ Gunpowder Plot?

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Part of the intent of the Gunpowder Plot of 1605 was to assassinate Elizabeth's father and the Protestant aristocracy, kidnap the nine-year-old Elizabeth from Coombe Abbey, and place her on the throne of England – and presumably the thrones of Ireland and Scotland – as a Catholic monarch. The conspirators chose Elizabeth after considering the other available options. Prince Henry, it was believed, would perish alongside his father. Charles was seen as too feeble (having only just learnt to walk) and Mary too young. Elizabeth, on the other hand, had already attended formal functions, and the conspirators knew that "she could fulfil a ceremonial role despite her comparative youth".[17]

The conspirators aimed to cause an uprising in the Midlands to coincide with the explosion in London and at this point secure Elizabeth's accession as a puppet queen. She would then be brought up as a Catholic and later married to a Catholic bridegroom.[18] The plot failed when the conspirators were betrayed, and Guy Fawkes was caught by the King's soldiers before he was able to ignite the powder.[19]

Is Littlefinger GRRM’s Guy Fawkes?

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Ok, this thought just occurred to me.  I’ve long suspected that both Varys and Littlefinger are actually Braavosi agents and/or agents of the Iron Bank.   (We’ve been told that often Braavosi agents may even be unaware of other the identity of other agents).   And we know that when a prince defaults on the Iron Bank the Iron Bank replaces him with their own prince.

Which may be happening down South with Young Griff.  Perhaps Young Griff is the Iron Bank’s replacement for the Baratheons, and Illyrio and Varys have been tasked with getting him ready to rule.

I wonder if Littlefinger might be tasked with the same thing up north?  Get his own puppet to take over Winterfell?

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9 hours ago, LongRider said:

Would the only known living heir to WF better serve his purpose?   Perhaps a marriage alliance of WF; I.e. the North, to his protege better serve his plans?

This is where I think it will end up whether Varys is involved or not.  North and South, the land is one and the final outcome of the song of ice and fire.  

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