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Heresy 238 The Song of Sansa the Snow Queen


Black Crow

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3 hours ago, Springwatch said:

Fascinating topics; I just got to say a few things -

Snow is a friendly force to the Starks, isn't it? They fight with snow weapons, they build snow castles, there are snow sentinels standing on Winterfell. Bran is hidden from the wights when a helpful blanket of snow falls on him (pointed out by Leaf).

Tentative conclusion: The snow is hurting Stannis because Winterfell hates Stannis. And why not? Stannis did try to kill Robb.

On Stannis: I've thought for a while now that Stannis is the winter storm between two summers. That's why Robert favours Renly, and why both of them are at ease with cheating Stannis of his 'rightful inheritance'. No-one likes winter, right? So why not bypass it?

ETA

I liked seeing this:

Robert was that storm.

I like the idea of Bob as the raging summer storm

I wonder if that Winter in the middle marks a period of weakness and humiliation in his reign. He marries Cersei in 284, Joffrey is born in 286. Early in his reign Oberyn was plotting to crown Viserys. Around 284 Balon started building the Iron Fleet in preparation for his rebellion (according to the world book). Then Robert gets his mojo back; Edric Storm is born is 287 and in 289 Ned joins Bob to crush the Greyjoy Rebellion

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This is what the wiki says (the errata):

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In the Prologue, Gared, who has been in the Night's Watch for forty years as both man and boy, states "I saw men freeze last winter, and the one before, when I was half a boy", indicating that he was "half a boy" two winters ago.[7] However, Tyrion Lannister later states that he has seen eight or nine winters during his lifetime.[8] As Tyrion was born in 273 AC,[9][10] Gared's count does not add up to Tyrion's count, as more than two winters have passed within the last twenty-five years. Tyrion's count also makes little sense, since with the nine years of summer and the fact that he was born in the midst of a three-year winter,[8] that would leave only fourteen years to have eight or nine winters, contradicting the concept of the long seasons.

I don't agree with their objection. I don't see that there was a 'concept of the long seasons' - just very irregular patterns, which I'm really hoping correlate with the high lords and their game of thrones. So not just Robert, but everyone around him, which to me anyway, is too complicated to compute. However I do see that gold is being poured into Robert at a great rate - Aerys left him a full treasury, the Lannisters get him gold out of the ground, Baelish conjures gold out of the air, the priests give him gold, the Iron Bank gives him gold - and Robert grows bigger and bigger. This could be his zenith - by the time Sansa arrives, it's been summer for nine years and (through the gauze of the litter) she perceives his whole world as gold. And she loves it.

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15 hours ago, Springwatch said:

I don't agree with their objection. I don't see that there was a 'concept of the long seasons' - just very irregular patterns, which I'm really hoping correlate with the high lords and their game of thrones. 

It's worth bearing in mind the geography involved. Tyrion's a southern lad while Gared is from up north where cold weather lingers

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27 minutes ago, Black Crow said:

It's worth bearing in mind the geography involved. Tyrion's a southern lad while Gared is from up north where cold weather lingers

Also, perception. For a southern lad a cold night with a little frost and maybe a snowflake might count as winter, while a northern lad might perceive everything with less than three feet of snow as summer (exaggerated).

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GRRM probably changed his mind about the recent winters or Gared's age and forgot to fix all the references. Now it is an unreliable narrator detail :-)

Mormont is OK with the Tyrion's estimate:

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"You are a young man, Tyrion," Mormont said. "How many winters have you seen?"
He shrugged. "Eight, nine. I misremember."
"And all of them short."
“As you say, my lord.” He had been born in the dead of winter, a terrible cruel one that the maesters said had lasted near three years, but Tyrion’s earliest memories were of spring.

 

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2 hours ago, alienarea said:

Also, perception. For a southern lad a cold night with a little frost and maybe a snowflake might count as winter, while a northern lad might perceive everything with less than three feet of snow as summer (exaggerated).

Yes, its worth remembering Trouserless Bob expressing himself about summer snow when he came visiting

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On 8/27/2021 at 6:32 PM, Melifeather said:

IMO the death of Brandon made way for Ned to have a son named Brandon. Ned's brother Brandon was the Brandon for the False Spring cycle.

(false) Spring: Rhaegar the ascending Summer King.

Lyanna takes off. Killing the Lord of Winterfell (Rickard) and his son Brandon brought about the return of Winter with a vengeance. Maybe this is the origin of there must be a Stark in Winterfell? It may be that if there is no Stark, then Winter returns? I also think its important to include Ashara in this grouping. She's the "other Lyanna". She may or may not be dead. Ned loved her, but he had to marry the Riverland daughter instead.

(new) Spring: Robert Baratheon the ascending Summer King.

Ned is the new Lord of Winterfell, he fathers two new "Lyannas" named Sansa and Arya, and a new Brandon.

This brings about a long, extended Summer.

Killing Robert brought about the end of Summer, but killing the Lord (Ned) and Bran's abandonment of Winterfell is what triggered the return of Winter with a vengeance. The two Lyannas take off as expected, but the Brandon escapes death by vacating the castle.

Winter is here.

Winterfell has a new Lord, but he ain't no Stark. The current Brandon is still alive albeit as a greenseer, and the two Lyannas went their separate ways. Sansa is also the Riverland daughter. The realm suspects that they are both alive, but no one can find them. So far it is they that has escaped capture. 

 

2 Lyannas? Riverland daughter? Could you explain you reasoning?

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6 hours ago, MissM said:

2 Lyannas? Riverland daughter? Could you explain you reasoning?

Sorry! The regulars on Heresy are more familiar with my parallel inversion theories of which there are multiples, based on the titled chapters. I'll try to catch you up.

There are more than a few theories that feature sisters. Lyanna and Ashara were not blood related of course, but they were sort of mirrored reflections of each other much like Arya and Sansa were polar opposites. There's also Lollys Stokeworth and her sister Falyse - a name which looks to me like it could be pronounced as "false-ey" as in false sister. Then there are the Three Sisters - the islands just off the north of the Fingers in the Bite named Sweetsister, Longsister, and Littlesister. This is a clue that points to the identity of the fisherman's daughter that Lord Godric Borrell told Davos about when he witnessed Ned Stark with a woman that Borrell claimed Ned impregnated. IMO the three islands represent Cersei, Ashara, and Lyanna. Jaime Lannister frequently refers to Cersei as sweet sister, and the long and short sisters seem to hint at Sansa and Arya again.

One of the more striking parallels is between Ashara and Lollys. Recall that the tale of the Knight of the Laughing Tree has an account of a laughing maid with purple eyes "dancing" with many men. Then compare that to what happened to Lollys. She was part of the procession that went to see Myrcella off to Dorne when the crowd turned into a riot. Myrcella herself symbolizes a marriage alliance. She is "little Cersei" and her marriage alliance to Robert Baratheon, but its also interesting that GRRM chose to marry Myrcella to someone from Dorne which hints at a connection to both Ashara and Lyanna.

Back to Lollys...She was pulled from her horse and raped by several men. She gets pregnant, but does not know who the father was. As a result she's damaged goods and has to marry beneath her rank. Its heavily implied in the text that Ashara became pregnant and the reader isn't sure who the father was. She supposedly jumped from the tower after giving birth to a stillborn daughter and after hearing about her brother's death. Did she do that, because she couldn't bear to marry beneath her station? She must have been pregnant at court just like Lollys. This is the basis for my theory that Ashara is not dead, but is living at home as Wylla - just like Sansa is living (at her father's home) in disguise as Alayne.

Meanwhile, where is Falyse? She plotted with Cersei to get rid of Bronn. Falyse and her husband were childless so they were threatened by Lollys and Bronn's marriage. As for Cersei, she was just pissed that Bronn named Lollys legitimized bastard Tyrion. Falyse and Cersei's plot fails when Bronn wins a trial by combat, so Falyse begs Cersei for men to take back the castle. Cersei, fearing the failure may undermine her position, gives Falyse to Qyburn. The connection is that Falyse may be a parallel to Lyanna. Lyanna's marriage to Robert would have undermined Cersei's position had the plot to place Robert on the throne been secretly orchestrated by Tywin in advance. If Tywin had planned this all - and we all know he wanted Cersei to be a queen - then Lyanna stood in Cersei's way, and Falyse's name sets the stage for Lyanna to being a "false" sister to Ashara - maybe in more ways than one. 

As for the Riverland daughter parallel...the premise is based on Ned Stark's preference of wife. During the Harrenhal tourney he fell for Ashara. He may even have impregnated her, but the Rebellion needed more men and his marriage to Catelyn secured House Tully to the cause. Ned married the Riverland daughter instead. Now Sansa as Alayne is the new Riverland daughter. She is playing overlapping parallels, because she's a "Catelyn" substitute for Littlefinger's affections. She's "Ashara" dancing with many men in the Alayne chapter pre-tourney in the Vale. And she's "Lyanna" just by being a daughter of Winterfell and as a valuable marriage alliance match. Harry the heir is also playing multiple parallels of Rhaegar (heir to the throne), Robert (will take the throne), and Ned (the love match). Of course the threat of Harry being Robert is that he may "take" Sweetrobin's seat in the Vale. And I'm sure you can see the many parallels between Sweetrobin and King Aerys!

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1 hour ago, Melifeather said:

Where did everyone go? :uhoh:

Oops, I fear I might have disrupted the the flow of the thread a bit - but while it's quiet, I can dip in again....

I always like theories of reflections and shadows - I'm certain this is the right line to take - but lately I've been thinking of names, and why it should be that you've got to remember your name - basically trying to get a feel of the possibilities of names being destiny. Or identity, or purpose, or whatever George chooses. I think this might be true because there's a fair amount of emphasis on names - not just Theon, but Ayra and Sansa are also in danger of losing their identity and values along with their names.

I wonder very much how George chose names for his female POV's, especially the Starks. The boy Starks are obviously variations of known forenames, the girls are complete novelties. Ok, it's easier to manufacture a new girls' name from a few attractive sounds - e.g. 'Arianne', 'Ashara' - but in all honesty I don't see that in 'Arya' and 'Sansa', and I could add  'Cersei' and 'Daenerys' to the list. But those are the sounds/letters George wanted, and took a lot of trouble to put together. The why of it is a puzzle to me.

 

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1 hour ago, Springwatch said:

Oops, I fear I might have disrupted the the flow of the thread a bit - but while it's quiet, I can dip in again....

I always like theories of reflections and shadows - I'm certain this is the right line to take - but lately I've been thinking of names, and why it should be that you've got to remember your name - basically trying to get a feel of the possibilities of names being destiny. Or identity, or purpose, or whatever George chooses. I think this might be true because there's a fair amount of emphasis on names - not just Theon, but Ayra and Sansa are also in danger of losing their identity and values along with their names.

I wonder very much how George chose names for his female POV's, especially the Starks. The boy Starks are obviously variations of known forenames, the girls are complete novelties. Ok, it's easier to manufacture a new girls' name from a few attractive sounds - e.g. 'Arianne', 'Ashara' - but in all honesty I don't see that in 'Arya' and 'Sansa', and I could add  'Cersei' and 'Daenerys' to the list. But those are the sounds/letters George wanted, and took a lot of trouble to put together. The why of it is a puzzle to me.

 

Keeping with the song of ice and fire theme, Arya and Sansa are musical names. Arya very much is pronounced like aria which is specifically an accompanied, elaborate melody sung (as in an opera) by a single voice. Sansa is a handheld, plucked instrument also called a thumb piano. Rather than string its keys look more like little planks and are made of bamboo or metal. Even the definition of their names seem insightful to their character. Arya is an elaborate person that likes to work single-handedly, whereas Sansa does get "plucked" and used by other people.

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As for Cersei, I've read her name and inspiration came from the ancient Greek witch, Circe who turned men into pigs.

As for Daenerys, I'm not sure where GRRM got this name from. It does seem like the Targaryens have alot of names with "ae" in them. It helps to make for a separate native language for the Valyrians. In history though, the name Nerys in the Welsh tradition means "lady" whereas the "Dae" part sounds like "day" in the American language. Put them both together and it seems to imply Lady of Light, which also seems to fit her persona.

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1 minute ago, Melifeather said:

I had another thought regarding Sansa's name. Now that's she's Alayne she's no longer someone else's thumb piano to play. 

Yes! I mean, not the thumb piano specifically, but Alayne is a different person to Sansa. I feel the differences, but find it hard to define them. Certainly Alayne is much closer to Sansa than Reek is to Theon.

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13 minutes ago, Springwatch said:

Yes! I mean, not the thumb piano specifically, but Alayne is a different person to Sansa. I feel the differences, but find it hard to define them. Certainly Alayne is much closer to Sansa than Reek is to Theon.

Reek is trying to remember he's Theon. I've written an opinion regarding the Ghost of Winterfell and why I think its Theon. 

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44 minutes ago, Melifeather said:

As for Cersei, I've read her name and inspiration came from the ancient Greek witch, Circe who turned men into pigs.

Also yes! This one drives me crazy. George says no - he denied the connection in an SSM. But George is a well read man - it's impossible that he could design the name Cersei without thinking of Circe. So what's going on? I'm guessing that he doesn't want us to stop at Circe, and he doesn't want the same sounds as Circe - his own sounds have meaning for him.

I'm noticing those soft, hissy 'S' sounds shared by Sansa and Cercei - without being too clever about this, I can see a poetical effect effect here, the similar to this one: 

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'he has the subtlety and hissing of the serpent, which in goodness he suppresses' 

- the sounds reinforce the meaning. George falls into alliteration sometimes - I've been looking for a quote, and here it is!

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[Tyrion] Sansa Stark, he mused. soft-spoken, sweet-smelling Sansa who loved silks, songs, chivalry and tall gallant knights with handsome faces

Hear those 'S's! I think they sort of define her - like Cersei, like the Lace Serpent, maybe others.

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