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Heresy 238 The Song of Sansa the Snow Queen


Black Crow

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23 minutes ago, Melifeather said:

Okay. I have repeatedly suggested that Lyanna wasn't kidnapped by Rhaegar, but rather a group of men pretending to be Rhaegar and his men. Its not beyond Tywin's means to have a second suit of armor made to look just like Rhaegar's. I also see Robert's death bed scene as being symbolic of Lyanna's own death - gored by a different sort of boar. Ned certainly had deja vu. Sumner Crakehall's sigil is a boar, and if Tywin's brother Kevan carried out the kidnapping then he most certainly knew what she looked like. I don't know what I like better. Sumner's boar or Richard Monmouth's deadly kisses.

I remember your theory, that is why I followed Kevan's robber knight thread. I am on-board now.

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6 minutes ago, Tucu said:

Anyone else suspects that Wenda the White Fawn and Pretty Meris are the same person? Fair westerosi torturer that has been in exile for 20 years.

Its quite possible, but you'd think her height (6 foot tall blonde) would have been noticeable enough to be mentioned when describing Wenda the White Fawn. Brienne's size gets mentioned often enough.

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15 hours ago, Melifeather said:

Its quite possible, but you'd think her height (6 foot tall blonde) would have been noticeable enough to be mentioned when describing Wenda the White Fawn. Brienne's size gets mentioned often enough.

You are  right. I imagined Wenda as a blonde Osha. The drawing in the wiki makes her look tall. But Merrett describes her as little

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No good ever came from dealing with outlaws. That vile little bitch Wenda had burned a fawn into the cheek of his arse while she had him captive

Now I have two unidentified female torturers :-(

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20 hours ago, Melifeather said:

Okay. I have repeatedly suggested that Lyanna wasn't kidnapped by Rhaegar, but rather a group of men pretending to be Rhaegar and his men. Its not beyond Tywin's means to have a second suit of armor made to look just like Rhaegar's. 

While I've no strong views anent who abducted Lyanna, I would point out that duplicating Rhaegar's battle armour is an unnecessary complication. What he wore to do lead armies and do battle at the Trident, and what he wore stravaighing about the countryside with his chosen companions are unlikely to be the same thing. Muffling a face in a cloak and shouting his name are as likely to be as effective and a lot cheaper than counterfeiting a distinctive suit of armour - and a lot more practical for a swift getaway

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1 hour ago, Black Crow said:

While I've no strong views anent who abducted Lyanna, I would point out that duplicating Rhaegar's battle armour is an unnecessary complication. What he wore to do lead armies and do battle at the Trident, and what he wore stravaighing about the countryside with his chosen companions are unlikely to be the same thing. Muffling a face in a cloak and shouting his name are as likely to be as effective and a lot cheaper than counterfeiting a distinctive suit of armour - and a lot more practical for a swift getaway

Faking attacks the Lannister way:

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Prince Doran took a jagged breath. “Dorne still has friends at court. Friends who tell us things we were not meant to know. This invitation Cersei sent us is a ruse. Trystane is never meant to reach King’s Landing. On the road back, somewhere in the kingswood, Ser Balon’s party will be attacked by outlaws, and my son will die. I am asked to court only so that I may witness this attack with my own eyes and thereby absolve the queen of any blame. Oh, and these outlaws? They will be shouting, ‘Halfman, Halfman,’ as they attack. Ser Balon may even catch a quick glimpse of the Imp, though no one else will.”

 

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5 hours ago, Black Crow said:

While I've no strong views anent who abducted Lyanna, I would point out that duplicating Rhaegar's battle armour is an unnecessary complication. What he wore to do lead armies and do battle at the Trident, and what he wore stravaighing about the countryside with his chosen companions are unlikely to be the same thing. Muffling a face in a cloak and shouting his name are as likely to be as effective and a lot cheaper than counterfeiting a distinctive suit of armour - and a lot more practical for a swift getaway

I shouldn’t have to point out the two other examples of using someone else’s armor to for deception. Renly’s armor was worn by his brother and Arys Oakheart had one of his men wear his. The precedent is there, not to forget the rich Kings Landing armorer Tobho Mott.

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My work is costly, and I make no apologies for that, my lord. You will not find craftsmanship equal to mine anywhere in the Seven Kingdoms, I promise you. Visit every forge in King's Landing if you like, and compare for yourself. Any village smith can hammer out a shirt of mail; my work is art.

 

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11 hours ago, Melifeather said:

I shouldn’t have to point out the two other examples of using someone else’s armor to for deception. Renly’s armor was worn by his brother and Arys Oakheart had one of his men wear his. The precedent is there, not to forget the rich Kings Landing armorer Tobho Mott.

 

It was a common enough expedient by mediaeval kings in battle, which is no doubt where GRRM got the idea. However decoys wearing a suit of armour and insignia to confuse and distract on the field of battle is rather different from a quick and dirty raid as Tucu rightly cites. I aint arguing against the notion that Rhaegar may have been framed - just pointing out that duplicating his battle armour to achieve that would be unnecessary

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I very seriously doubt that Rhaegar was framed for Lyanna's disappearance.  There is certainly no indication of it in the books.  No character, from any side, has so much as hinted that Rhaegar wasn't really responsible, and Rhaegar never denied doing so.  (If he had, I'm sure we would have heard by now).  Even the version Daenerys has heard, presumably from the Targaryen POV, has Rhaegar abducting her at sword point.

Of course, there are still many, many questions about the event. How it happened and why are still very much unknown and the subject of much speculation.  That Rhaegar was responsible I don't really doubt, though.

Now to Sansa, the (ostensible) subject of this thread.  Whether or not she becomes a "Snow Queen", she is clearly on her way to becoming a major political player in Westeros, and is likely to be in a position of significant power by the end (assuming we get there).  She is learning the arts of political maneuver and manipulation from a master, although I expect her to keep only the parts she likes and discard the stuff she doesn't like, but remembering it so she can recognize it if need be.  At some point, she will probably realize that his agenda and hers don't mesh, and will seek to take him down, using what he has taught her..

I think Ser Shadrich is a red herring.  He is there to make us think that Sansa is either in more danger than she really is, or to distract us from a more salient danger.  Namely, Littlefinger.  When LF realizes that they are not on the same page, or necessarily even reading the same book, he may decide that she is more of a threat than a collaborator and ally.  At that point watch out.  But we may be too busy watching Shadrich skulking about threateningly to pay close enough attention.

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13 hours ago, Nevets said:

I very seriously doubt that Rhaegar was framed for Lyanna's disappearance.  There is certainly no indication of it in the books.  No character, from any side, has so much as hinted that Rhaegar wasn't really responsible, and Rhaegar never denied doing so.  (If he had, I'm sure we would have heard by now).  Even the version Daenerys has heard, presumably from the Targaryen POV, has Rhaegar abducting her at sword point.

Of course, there are still many, many questions about the event. How it happened and why are still very much unknown and the subject of much speculation.  That Rhaegar was responsible I don't really doubt, though.

All things of course are possible, and in all honesty if it was not for the R+L=J theory her abduction, on the face of it would appear to be no more than a minor footnote in history.

A major and perhaps significant omission is the almost complete lack of information about what happened. Yandel mentions it of course, but more or less just in passing. Trouserless Bob, as we've discussed before, dismisses the story of an elopement as being down to the ballad singers and what little Danaerys has heard appears to come from the same source. We're conditioned to regard Bob as unreliable [see the previous thread] but being miserable heretics we're inclined to look deeper and if Bob was right about the romantic ballads to try and find what was really going on and that in turn leads to two distinct theories, one, espoused by Melifeather, that Rhaegar was framed to provoke the war [and no I don't follow that version] and the other, the Rhaegar did indeed lift her, but to prevent a Stark-Baratheon alliance, ie; a move in the Song of Ice and Fire, but again rather than go too deep I'll refer you to the previous thread.:commie: 

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13 hours ago, Nevets said:

Now to Sansa, the (ostensible) subject of this thread.  Whether or not she becomes a "Snow Queen", she is clearly on her way to becoming a major political player in Westeros, and is likely to be in a position of significant power by the end (assuming we get there).  She is learning the arts of political maneuver and manipulation from a master, although I expect her to keep only the parts she likes and discard the stuff she doesn't like, but remembering it so she can recognize it if need be.  At some point, she will probably realize that his agenda and hers don't mesh, and will seek to take him down, using what he has taught her..

I think Ser Shadrich is a red herring.  He is there to make us think that Sansa is either in more danger than she really is, or to distract us from a more salient danger.  Namely, Littlefinger.  When LF realizes that they are not on the same page, or necessarily even reading the same book, he may decide that she is more of a threat than a collaborator and ally.  At that point watch out.  But we may be too busy watching Shadrich skulking about threateningly to pay close enough attention.

Stick around longer and you'll find that we usually go off at a tangent sooner or later :commie:

I don't think that there's any doubt anent Sansa's political potential [and the dangers arising], but one of the things we can be sure of is that GRRM's story is multi-layered and so what we're engaged, or trying to engage, in here is trying to figure out what lies beneath, in the Song of Ice and Fire rather than in the Game of Thrones, hence the object of both this thread and the previous one, which are closely linked.

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14 hours ago, Nevets said:

I think Ser Shadrich is a red herring. 

I'm quite fascinated by the Mad Mouse showing up at this point because his sigil (albino mouse)  harkens back to the KotLT.  I don't think he is meant as a distraction but may be Howland Reed in disguise come to protect the Stark heiress.   As he says, this mouse runs towards danger.  Especially since Ned would have died if it wasn't for Howland.  We don't know where the Shady Glen is located but it's a reference to mountainous areas and their valleys.  The bendy blue and brown representing the lands and waters he has crossed.  This is consistent with the Reeds oath to Bran - swearing by earth and water.

More interesting to me is Meera's statement the mountains and marshes are one, but over-wrinkled.  She also tells us that Howland rode beside Theo Wull of the mountain clans during Robert's Rebellion, in a sense making the mountains and marsh allied as "one".

Alayne's descripiton of  Shadrick would fit with Howland's age and she also notes his wrinkled face. 

So why does he tell Brienne that he's a bounty working for Varys?  This would be a good cover if he meant to discover Sansa's hunters and eliminate them.  He won't enter the joust because he doesn't want to be one of Robin's winged knights but he may want to attach himself to Sansa for her protection. 

 

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Going back for a minute to the mummer's play layer in Alayne's chapters. This is GRRM "The Gardener" breaking the fourth wall:

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He did not hold her kiss against her. "You would not believe half of what is happening in King's Landing, sweetling. Cersei stumbles from one idiocy to the next, helped along by her council of the deaf, the dim, and the blind. I always anticipated that she would beggar the realm and destroy herself, but I never expected she would do it quite so fast. It is quite vexing. I had hoped to have four or five quiet years to plant some seeds and allow some fruits to ripen, but now . . . it is a good thing that I thrive on chaos. What little peace and order the five kings left us will not long survive the three queens, I fear."

 

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15 hours ago, Nevets said:

I very seriously doubt that Rhaegar was framed for Lyanna's disappearance.  There is certainly no indication of it in the books.  No character, from any side, has so much as hinted that Rhaegar wasn't really responsible, and Rhaegar never denied doing so.  (If he had, I'm sure we would have heard by now).  Even the version Daenerys has heard, presumably from the Targaryen POV, has Rhaegar abducting her at sword point.

Of course, there are still many, many questions about the event. How it happened and why are still very much unknown and the subject of much speculation.  That Rhaegar was responsible I don't really doubt, though.

Now to Sansa, the (ostensible) subject of this thread.  Whether or not she becomes a "Snow Queen", she is clearly on her way to becoming a major political player in Westeros, and is likely to be in a position of significant power by the end (assuming we get there).  She is learning the arts of political maneuver and manipulation from a master, although I expect her to keep only the parts she likes and discard the stuff she doesn't like, but remembering it so she can recognize it if need be.  At some point, she will probably realize that his agenda and hers don't mesh, and will seek to take him down, using what he has taught her..

I think Ser Shadrich is a red herring.  He is there to make us think that Sansa is either in more danger than she really is, or to distract us from a more salient danger.  Namely, Littlefinger.  When LF realizes that they are not on the same page, or necessarily even reading the same book, he may decide that she is more of a threat than a collaborator and ally.  At that point watch out.  But we may be too busy watching Shadrich skulking about threateningly to pay close enough attention.

There are plenty of indications that things aren't what they seem, but I guess it depends upon whether or not the abduction story makes any sense to you. It obviously doesn't to me. Many supporters of the abduction theory either believe Rhaegar and Lyanna fell in love, or that he took her, because Elia couldn't produce a third heir, or as Black Crow suggests to prevent an alliance between the North and the Riverlands. I don't believe any of these reasons. 

There's very slim evidence of a romance. The only thing that might be construed as a romantic gesture is the giving of the blue rose laurel, but nobody in the audience thought it was romantic. On the contrary, everyone was shocked. When Loras gave Sansa a rose before his tilt, he completely forgot about afterward when Sansa brought it up. We've recently discussed Lyanna's reluctance to marry Robert due to a fear of infidelity, and the dissection of Ashara's dishonoring with the possibility that it was Robert that bedded her. If Rhaegar had heard of the scandal, he saw her "sniffling" when he was playing, and then was in a position of awarding the blue rose laurel, why not give Lyanna the flowers to cheer her up? Maybe it was simply an act of kindness that was misconstrued? If the tourney was cover for Rhaegar to gather support - like so many tourneys were in the past - then it seems ill advised - quite stupid, actually - to upset the people who he hoped to gain as allies.

The need for a third head of the dragon...Elia was pregnant with Aegon at the Harrenhal Tourney. Rhaegar could not have known at that time whether or not Elia could give birth to a third child or not. So why use this line of reasoning for giving the laurel? I've read the argument against her being visibly pregnant at the tourney, but if you ask me this is even more evidence that he couldn't have known about her future ability to produce heirs.

Elia was roughly 7 months pregnant during the tourney - visibly pregnant - and this is why everyone was so shocked. The tourney was held during the False Spring which occurred in November and December of 281. Aegon was born in January 282 on Dragonstone which was right about the time Lyanna was supposedly abducted. How could Rhaegar be in two places at once?

Regarding Elia's health...much has been made about her "delicate" condition. I think this is simply a misinterpretation of the text. "Delicate condition" is a common enough phrase for being pregnant. Lets review what Mormont said to Daenerys:

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A Storm of Swords - Daenerys IV

"But that was the tourney when he crowned Lyanna Stark as queen of love and beauty!" said Dany. "Princess Elia was there, his wife, and yet my brother gave the crown to the Stark girl, and later stole her away from her betrothed. How could he do that? Did the Dornish woman treat him so ill?"

"It is not for such as me to say what might have been in your brother's heart, Your Grace. The Princess Elia was a good and gracious lady, though her health was ever delicate."

Elia was basically pregnant from the time she married Rhaegar in early 280 until Aegon's birth in 282 - the entire short time that people would have seen her at court in Kings Landing. Daenerys brought up the tourney at Harrenhal and was wondering why Rhaegar gave the laurel to Lyanna and later stole her away. Mormont answered her question by saying her health was "ever delicate". I think he was just saying she was always pregnant whenever he saw her.

When Prince Oberyn was reminding Tyrion that he, his mother, and Elia had visited Casterly Rock with the intention of finding suitable mates for Oberyn and Elia. Their mother hoped to negotiate marriages to Cersei and Jaime. She had been Joanna's friend and hoped Tywin would honor his late wife's wishes. Oberyn brought up the fact that his sister never got a chance to travel much due to her "delicate health". She was young when she was murdered by Gregor Clegane, and prior to her death she was pregnant twice - a delicate condition that would have stretched from when she first got pregnant with Rhaenys to after she delivered Aegon. Leaving her short life prior to court to travel, but of course prior to marrying Rhaegar she would have been at home in Dorne. She didn't get to go many places yet, and that is why she was so excited to travel to Casterly Rock. 

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A Storm of Swords - Tyrion X

"Do you recall the tale I told you of our first meeting, Imp?" Prince Oberyn asked, as the Bastard of Godsgrace knelt before him to fasten his greaves. "It was not for your tail alone that my sister and I came to Casterly Rock. We were on a quest of sorts. A quest that took us to Starfall, the Arbor, Oldtown, the Shield Islands, Crakehall, and finally Casterly Rock . . . but our true destination was marriage. Doran was betrothed to Lady Mellario of Norvos, so he had been left behind as castellan of Sunspear. My sister and I were yet unpromised.

"Elia found it all exciting. She was of that age, and her delicate health had never permitted her much travel. I preferred to amuse myself by mocking my sister's suitors. There was Little Lord Lazyeye, Squire Squishlips, one I named the Whale That Walks, that sort of thing. The only one who was even halfway presentable was young Baelor Hightower. A pretty lad, and my sister was half in love with him until he had the misfortune to fart once in our presence. I promptly named him Baelor Breakwind, and after that Elia couldn't look at him without laughing. I was a monstrous young fellow, someone should have sliced out my vile tongue."

I think the idea that Elia was "delicate" is a twisting of what the Mormont and Oberyn have said. And I'm sure GRRM did this deliberately. Elia found the trip to Casterly Rock exciting. Oberyn said she "was of that age". Placing a comma after "she was of that age," and following it with "and her delicate health..." is a change of subject. It doesn't necessarily mean that she had a delicate health prior to marriage. Lastly, the word "permitted" indicates extenuating circumstances. It indicates a situation or condition that provides an excuse for an action, or in Elia's case, inaction. I'm not saying this is definitive proof, but I am saying I think the text has some wriggle room to be interpreted differently.

 

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2 hours ago, Tucu said:

Going back for a minute to the mummer's play layer in Alayne's chapters. This is GRRM "The Gardener" breaking the fourth wall:

I like this. The transition from "the five kings" to "the three queens" does sound like one play ended and another is beginning. Littlefinger does speak as if these were two plays. 

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17 hours ago, Nevets said:

No character, from any side, has so much as hinted that Rhaegar wasn't really responsible, and Rhaegar never denied doing so.  (If he had, I'm sure we would have heard by now).  Even the version Daenerys has heard, presumably from the Targaryen POV, has Rhaegar abducting her at sword point.

The bolded remains the primary hurdle I have with this theory as well; upon his return from Dorne, Rhaegar interacted with Jaime, and marched to the Trident with Barristan, yet neither man recalls Rhaegar proclaiming his innocence, or presenting himself as a man who has been falsely accused. 

In addition, there's Kevan's thoughts that were quoted in the previous page, about how if Cersei had been Rhaegar's wife, he'd never have looked twice at Lyanna--which, IMO is a knock against the idea of the Lannister faction framing Rhaegar, as it seems to be Kevan reiterating the common interpretation of Rhaegar's actions and motives.

That said, I don't think that it's outside of the realm of possibility yet, either. To play devil's advocate, Rhaegar may have never denied the allegations because allowing the realm to believe he had run off with Lyanna could have been a useful smokescreen to obscure whatever it was that Rhaegar was really doing while he was MIA during Robert's Rebellion--in any scenario where he wasn't off with Lyanna, of course.

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1 hour ago, Matthew. said:

The bolded remains the primary hurdle I have with this theory as well; upon his return from Dorne, Rhaegar interacted with Jaime, and marched to the Trident with Barristan, yet neither man recalls Rhaegar proclaiming his innocence, or presenting himself as a man who has been falsely accused. 

In addition, there's Kevan's thoughts that were quoted in the previous page, about how if Cersei had been Rhaegar's wife, he'd never have looked twice at Lyanna--which, IMO is a knock against the idea of the Lannister faction framing Rhaegar, as it seems to be Kevan reiterating the common interpretation of Rhaegar's actions and motives.

That said, I don't think that it's outside of the realm of possibility yet, either. To play devil's advocate, Rhaegar may have never denied the allegations because allowing the realm to believe he had run off with Lyanna could have been a useful smokescreen to obscure whatever it was that Rhaegar was really doing while he was MIA during Robert's Rebellion--in any scenario where he wasn't off with Lyanna, of course.

Absence of evidence isn't evidence. It's all assumptions and jumping to conclusions.

As for Kevan...Tywin wanted Cersei to marry Rhaegar, but he married Elia instead. Was this solely Aerys choice or was it also Rhaegar's choice? The attack on Elia may have been an attempt to kill her to make it possible for Tywin to make another attempt to offer up Cersei as a bride. I'm not saying that Rhaegar offering Lyanna the laurel was Tywin's idea, but it would be like Tywin to take advantage of a situation and magnify upon it. It may have been the opening he needed. What better way to turn the north against Rhaegar than to make them believe he abducted Lyanna? Kevan may simply be referring to the laurel incident as how the audience at the tourney saw it. Everyone was shocked that he passed over his pregnant wife. Kevan isn't really saying anything more than how the public saw the exchange.

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Rhaegar is the emo prince believing in prophecies while playing the harp of doom, i.e. he signed up twice for "I'm with stupid".

My take: He ran into Lyanna when looking for the Knight of the Laughing Tree, and her wolfblood made her admit that she had been said knight - either because she was, or because she wanted to protect him. Rhaegar had no other choice to arrest her and a lot of things went wrong.

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5 hours ago, LynnS said:

I'm quite fascinated by the Mad Mouse showing up at this point because his sigil (albino mouse)  harkens back to the KotLT.  I don't think he is meant as a distraction but may be Howland Reed in disguise come to protect the Stark heiress.   As he says, this mouse runs towards danger.  Especially since Ned would have died if it wasn't for Howland.  We don't know where the Shady Glen is located but it's a reference to mountainous areas and their valleys.  The bendy blue and brown representing the lands and waters he has crossed.  This is consistent with the Reeds oath to Bran - swearing by earth and water.

It's amazingly Tully, that's what strikes me. A hint of past loyalties perhaps?

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