Heresy 238 The Song of Sansa the Snow Queen

[Springwatch]

2 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

This is my favorite WOW quote and perhaps the biggest clue to Sansa’s role as the Winter Queen and perhaps Littlefinger’s grandiose plans for her:

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"A beautiful bastard, and the Lord Protector's daughter." Petyr drew her close and kissed her on both cheeks. "The night belongs to you, sweetling, Remember that, always."

I’m starting to come around to the idea of Littlefinger carving out a Northern Kingdom, and crowning Sansa as it’s Queen.  The kingdom comprised of the North, the Riverlands, and the Vale.  Sansa is already the presumptive heir of Winterfell, Baelish has been given Harrenhal and at least the title of Lord Paramount of the Trident.  Now he seems to be maneuvering Sansa to wed Harry the Heir perhaps to ultimately give her or her line the inheritance of the Vale as well.

ETA: And it just occurred to me the carrot that Littlefinger will have to convince the lords of the Riverlands and the North:  all the food that he is having the Vale lords under his thumb save up.  Littlefinger knows a Long Night is coming.

I hold with those who say repeated things are important, and LF repeats with castles: building the snow castle Winterfell, promising Winterfell, giving the Eyrie cake, promising Harry and the Eyrie. And yes Harrenhal is in the mix too.

Loved the quote about the night. I don't think Sansa is a creature of the night, though she could be strong there, just as wolves are strong in winter but not part of it (as the Others are). The Vale itself is a stronghold of the day, where autumn still lingers, where there's a large store of the fruits of summer, and where the ruler is Warden of the East - the dawn horizon.

[Tucu]

20 minutes ago, Springwatch said:

It's a strong image, and I'm not going to argue against Sansa restoring Winterfell after the long night. It's a reasonable scenario. But I'm certain LF and the doll-giant will not appear - so I'm expecting another iteration of the event which does include them.

At night she's drifting and dreaming and I think she has a ghostly sensation as well. And before dawn there's that missing slice of time, for which my prediction is she'll be effectively dead, in the same way that Jon is. Cold preserves, and the ice Wall will preserve Jon, and the Eyrie (the cold castle) could preserve Sansa. 

Pure speculation I know, but it solves a few problems, such as Sansa's undeveloped psychic skills - if she's forced to dream, Bran can build his bridges to her and start uniting the wolf-pack. Hard to see how it will happen otherwise.

 

Yes, I don't count on LF being there either. She goes alone to the location of the half-buried statue of the weeping woman:

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At the center of the garden, beside the statue of the weeping woman that lay broken and half-buried on the ground, she turned her face up to the sky and closed her eyes. She could feel the snow on her lashes, taste it on her lips. It was the taste of Winterfell.

Lyanna is a statue of a weeping woman buried in the crypts (in one of Ned's dreams):

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Last of all, he came to the tomb where his father slept, with Brandon and Lyanna beside him. "Promise me, Ned," Lyanna's statue whispered. She wore a garland of pale blue roses, and her eyes wept blood.

LF appears in the scene when Sansa fails to build bridges. This appears to be the point where her dream state ends. We will see if this means something later.

[Nevets]

14 hours ago, Black Crow said:

It is indeed, but my point was that having done the dirty deed he then vanished during the ensuing crisis and afterwards made no excuses, explanations or attempts to justify himself. And yes, arguably that behaviour is only human but its also at odds with the virtuous character portrayed by his apologists

One thing I find interesting is Ned's response to all this.  He is positively sanguine about Rhaegar.  Which, if he believed Rhaegar kidnapped and raped his sister, and is ultimately responsible for her death, makes little sense.  So I think there is more going on here.  Ned is likely far more knowledgeable about the underlying events than he is letting on, and probably believes that Lyanna was, at the lest, not an unwilling participant.

My own theory is that Rhaegar was motivated by prophecy.  I think he believed that Lyanna would be instrumental, or at least useful, at bringing about the Prince that was promised/Azor Ahai, or something like that.  (This is separate from the question of whether, in fact, Jon is actually one of these.)  He most likely got the idea after identifying her as the Knight of the Laughing Tree.  Lyanna may well have been intrigued by the idea of being involved in something bigger than herself, as well as getting out from under her betrothal to Robert.  Brandon, of course, would have thought it was simply a sleazy idea for seduction, hence his threats to Rhaegar.  I think Ned was aware of Rhaegar's beliefs, and Lyanna's reaction, hence his somewhat relaxed attitude towards Rhaegar.

13 hours ago, alienarea said:

And, getting back to the thread, Sansa being a victim first, then learning political intrigue to take revenge (and reclaim the family castle?) is a trope as well.

How do you negotiate with a White Walker? Plus, in the original outline Sansa is not a main character.

This circles back to my current understanding that ADwD is the end of the series. Five books like five acts as in a drama. The main characters from the outline have reached their endpoints: Jon (dead), Bran (tree), Arya (assassin), Daenerys (Vaes Dorhrak), Tyrion (exiled, whoring and drinking).

They may have reached an endpoint of sorts, but not the endpoint of their stories.  Jon is not (confirmed) dead, and won't stay that way even if he is.  Bran has not yet melded with the tree, and I don't believe he will.  In fact I think he will eventually leave the cave, possibly via the underground river.  Arya is not an assassin, and isn't going to be.  I doubt she is even being trained for it.   If so, they are doing so in a convoluted and desultory manner.  And Daenerys's story is just getting started.  Not sure about Tyrion, but I doubt he is done either.

Sansa may not have been in the original outline, but it is clear that, at this point, she is one of the principal characters.   And she doesn't have to negotiate with a White Walker.  She will be useful in drumming up support, managing the evacuation and subsequent feeding and housing of refugees, seeing to it that the Armies are supplied, etc.  That's the kind of stuff she is actually pretty good at, and will be likely necessary.  Whatever Sansa does, the Vale is merely a way station; a place where she can learn how to be a leader and get some practice.

[LadySage]

@alienarea "How do you negotiate with a White Walker?" rotflol 

[Black Crow]

18 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

I think Tucu’s observation is my favorite.  Sansa rebuilding Winterfell come dawn.  It kind of lines up with one of GRRM’s favorite references, Gone with the Wind.  Where after the war and the devastation of her plantation, the formerly self absorbed, entitled Scarlett, takes it upon herself to rebuild Tara.

Yes, I'm inclined to go along with the Gone with the Wind analogy and Sansa's role. GRRM has told us from the beginning that the story is about the children of Winterfell [and a couple of others] but while Jon and Bran seem to have roles mapped out in terms of the Song of Ice and Fire, neither is likely to rebuild Winterfell itself.

Of the others, Sansa appears the most likely. Strong women have done it before; there was the daughter of Winterfell whose son by Bael became Lord of Winterfell [and ancestor of the current generation] and there's that suppressed story about The She-Wolves of Winterfell, so there's precedent enough as well as the direct pointer in the snowflake communion and what followed and of course the Gone with the Wind hint. That same hint and more explicitly the question of Scarlett O'Hara's children can also be interpreted that way. Arya appears to be one of GRRM's favourites, but as she herself declared, becoming lady of a castle isn't for her, while poor Rickon seems even more like one of Scarlett's invisible brood. GRRM did say something like he will have an important role to play, but that doesn't necessarily mean a dynastic one - just by way of example his ultimate role [and fate] in the mummers' farce was arguably an important one.

[MissM]

51 minutes ago, Black Crow said:

Arya appears to be one of GRRM's favourites, but as she herself declared, becoming lady of a castle isn't for her

But didn't Arya want to build Castles but was told she would rule one instead? Being a conventional lady isn't her thing but doing her duty seems to be a course-correction for what Lyanna was unable to do. Her aunt chose her heart over her duty and the realm paid the price. I think things are setting up for Arya to face a similar choice and this time the daughter of the North will choose duty over her free spirit, free will, and heart's desires.

[Tucu]

One more detail about Sansa's snowflake communion: she contemplates building a snow knight, but then chooses to build her home:

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What do I want with snowballs? She looked at her sad little arsenal. There’s no one to throw them at. She let the one she was making drop from her hand. I could build a snow knight instead, she thought. Or even…

Later she learns how to build bridges. I take these as a choice between war and peace.

In contrast Bran goes for bloody vengeance:

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Men would not be sad. Men would be wroth. Men would hate and swear a bloody vengeance. The singers sing sad songs, where men would fight and kill.

Jon seemed more a Si vis pacem, para bellum character until he had to fight for his sister.

And Arya...she has her list but also a soft spot for the smallfolk.

[Frey family reunion]

17 hours ago, Springwatch said:

Loved the quote about the night. I don't think Sansa is a creature of the night, though she could be strong there, just as wolves are strong in winter but not part of it (as the Others are).

I think the author is using Winter and the Long Night synonymously.  So any reference to Sansa ruling the night, makes me think of Sansa coming to power during winter.  AKA, Sansa’s role as the Winter Queen.

As for Littlefinger, I think he’s going to help her obtain this goal, but if I had to guess, he’s assuming that when she comes to power, it will be as his puppet queen.  My guess is (kind of like the show) things are going to turn out differently, and Sansa is going to use the skills Littlefinger taught her against him.

(The idea of Littlefinger as GRRM’s Guy Fawkes is really intriguing me right now.  If you look at images and caricatures of Guy Fawkes you can kind of see the resemblance to Littlefinger.  The associations with Littlefinger and Braavos is probably also going to come into play if I had to guess.  I do wonder if Littlefinger’s precipitous rise to power in Westeros may have been secretly aided by the Iron Bank.)

[Black Crow]

3 hours ago, MissM said:

But didn't Arya want to build Castles but was told she would rule one instead? Being a conventional lady isn't her thing but doing her duty seems to be a course-correction for what Lyanna was unable to do. Her aunt chose her heart over her duty and the realm paid the price. I think things are setting up for Arya to face a similar choice and this time the daughter of the North will choose duty over her free spirit, free will, and heart's desires.

Not quite. She was doing a balancing exercise set by Syro Forel when Lord Eddard came and told her that Bran had awakened from his coma but remained crippled, and no he would never be a knight, but he could raise castles, be a councillor, sail ships or become a septon. She rather sceptically [head cocked to one side] asks if she can do those things, to which Lord Eddard responds that she will marry a king and rule his castle and that her sons will go and do those things.

To this she replies by screwing up her face, "No, she said, "that's Sansa." and resumes here balancing exercise.

[Black Crow]

3 hours ago, Tucu said:

One more detail about Sansa's snowflake communion: she contemplates building a snow knight,

A demon made of snow and ice 

[Springwatch]

1 hour ago, Black Crow said:

A demon made of snow and ice 

I might be wrong, but I think the wolves of Winterfell are pro snow and anti ice. Snow is their weapon and their concealing blanket, and snow is the field on which their sigil can run. It's hard to think of anything similar on ice (Jon aside). In his fever dream, Bran feared impalement on spears of ice.

[Springwatch]

19 hours ago, Tucu said:

Yes, I don't count on LF being there either. She goes alone to the location of the half-buried statue of the weeping woman:

Lyanna is a statue of a weeping woman buried in the crypts (in one of Ned's dreams):

I bet we see the weeping woman in some form or other. She appears everywhere.

19 hours ago, Tucu said:

LF appears in the scene when Sansa fails to build bridges. This appears to be the point where her dream state ends. We will see if this means something later.

There's the rub - there's nothing to signify where the foreshadowing starts and stops. I can't easily forget that the gate towers of the snow castle were smashed ("Come, wife, time to smash your portcullis. I want to play come-into-the-castle.") It's going to happen.

[alienarea]

https://www.discogs.com/it/Los-Lobos-How-Will-The-Wolf-Survive/master/198210

From 1984. Look at the cover.

 

[Tucu]

3 hours ago, Springwatch said:

I bet we see the weeping woman in some form or other. She appears everywhere.

There's the rub - there's nothing to signify where the foreshadowing starts and stops. I can't easily forget that the gate towers of the snow castle were smashed ("Come, wife, time to smash your portcullis. I want to play come-into-the-castle.") It's going to happen.

LF and Sweetrobin interruptions appear to be signalling a transition. So 3 scenes with their own themes and maybe their own foreshadowing.

For the maiden slaying a giant in the castle made of snow scene, I am not sure if GRRM is mocking us for following prophecies too strictly or if he plans to have one of his 3:1 expositions (GoHH dream:Sansa+sweetrobin:upcoming event)

[Frey family reunion]

3 hours ago, Springwatch said:

I might be wrong, but I think the wolves of Winterfell are pro snow and anti ice. Snow is their weapon and their concealing blanket, and snow is the field on which their sigil can run. It's hard to think of anything similar on ice (Jon aside). In his fever dream, Bran feared impalement on spears of ice.

I dont’ think we should forget this quote from Cat:

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Catelyn’s bath was always hot and steaming, and her walls warm to the touch. The warmth reminded her of Riverrun, of days in the sun with Lysa and Edmure, but Ned could never abide the heat. The Starks were made for the cold, he would tell her, and she would laugh and tell him in that case they had certainly built their castle in the wrong place.

I’m not sure that the Starks are meant to embrace winter, but instead are tasked with maintaining Winterfell as an oasis from winter.

[Black Crow]

15 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

I’m not sure that the Starks are meant to embrace winter, but instead are tasked with maintaining Winterfell as an oasis from winter.

This may be a matter of life and death, ie; the Starks are required [cursed?] to remain at Winterfell. The central heating is required to keep them alive while they do. That in turn shifts back to the question of why they must remain in Winterfell despite the cold.

[Tucu]

46 minutes ago, Black Crow said:

This may be a matter of life and death, ie; the Starks are required [cursed?] to remain at Winterfell. The central heating is required to keep them alive while they do. That in turn shifts back to the question of why they must remain in Winterfell despite the cold.

GRRM originally wanted the Targs to be able to conjure flames with their minds:

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I did consider in the very early stages not having the dragons in there. I wanted the Targaryen’s symbol to be the dragons, but I did play with the notion that maybe it was like a psionic power, that it was pyrokinesis — that they could conjure up flames with their minds. I went back and forth. My friend and fellow fantasy writer Phyllis Eisenstein actually was the one who convinced me to put the dragons in, and I dedicated the third book to her. And I think it was the right call.

I would not be surprised if its icy mirror survived in the Starks and/or weirnet.

In Bran's chapters Winterfell is the tree-shaped labyrinth where the winged wolf is chained. A prison for the wolf.

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To a boy, Winterfell was a grey stone labyrinth of walls and towers and courtyards and tunnels spreading out in all directions. In the older parts of the castle, the halls slanted up and down so that you couldn't even be sure what floor you were on. The place had grown over the centuries like some monstrous stone tree, Maester Luwin told him once, and its branches were gnarled and thick and twisted, its roots sunk deep into the earth

When he got out from under it and scrambled up near the sky, Bran could see all of Winterfell in a glance. He liked the way it looked, spread out beneath him, only birds wheeling over his head while all the life of the castle went on below. Bran could perch for hours among the shapeless, rain-worn gargoyles that brooded over the First Keep, watching it all: the men drilling with wood and steel in the yard, the cooks tending their vegetables in the glass garden, restless dogs running back and forth in the kennels, the silence of the godswood, the girls gossiping beside the washing well. It made him feel like he was lord of the castle, in a way even Robb would never know.

Meera and Jojen are sent to break him out of his prison:

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"I dreamed of a winged wolf bound to earth with grey stone chains,"

A chained Cerberus guarding the gates to the "frozen hell reserved for the Starks of Winterfell"?

[Melifeather]

20 hours ago, Springwatch said:

I might be wrong, but I think the wolves of Winterfell are pro snow and anti ice. Snow is their weapon and their concealing blanket, and snow is the field on which their sigil can run. It's hard to think of anything similar on ice (Jon aside). In his fever dream, Bran feared impalement on spears of ice.

Did you read the previous Heresy exchange leading into the Oak and Holly King discussion? We had noticed that killing the Lord of Winterfell seemed to bring on winter. Keeping a Stark in Winterfell seems to help delay winter, but now that all the Starks have abandoned the place, winter is returning with a fury. Recall the False Spring. It only lasted a few months. Then both Rickard and Brandon were executed and winter returned. Benjen was supposedly holding down the fort as the Stark in Winterfell, but maybe since he wasn't the actual Lord it wasn't enough? Installing Robert as the Oak King ended winter.

[Springwatch]

7 hours ago, Melifeather said:

Did you read the previous Heresy exchange leading into the Oak and Holly King discussion? We had noticed that killing the Lord of Winterfell seemed to bring on winter. Keeping a Stark in Winterfell seems to help delay winter, but now that all the Starks have abandoned the place, winter is returning with a fury. Recall the False Spring. It only lasted a few months. Then both Rickard and Brandon were executed and winter returned. Benjen was supposedly holding down the fort as the Stark in Winterfell, but maybe since he wasn't the actual Lord it wasn't enough? Installing Robert as the Oak King ended winter.

Not read it (I'm a slow reader), but it sounds seriously good - I'll get to it. Already I'm thinking about the symbiosis between a castle and it's ruling family: Winterfell is described as a giant, I remember, almost immortal in human terms, but it needs its Starks, has kept them going for hundreds or thousands of years (against all realistic probabilities). It seems to me Winterfell was very well set up winter, with Ned, who thrives in the cold, as its lord, and Cat with her warmth and fire as its lady. And now what? King Robb never took possession. The children with most interest in Winterfell are Bran, who looks down on it from on high; Jon who wants to rule it (and wouldn't he change the mood of Winterfell? the white wolf, the ice dragon?); and lately Sansa with her snow castle.

I'm stopping here while I re-read a bit of Terry Pratchett's 'Wyrd Sisters' which I remember describes the relationship between a kingdom and its king and was just too cute and clever for words.

[Springwatch]

23 hours ago, Springwatch said:

I'm stopping here while I re-read a bit of Terry Pratchett's 'Wyrd Sisters' which I remember describes the relationship between a kingdom and its king and was just too cute and clever for words.

Think I'll have to read all of Wyrd Sisters. I'd forgotten how thoughtful TP was - this is his kingdom of Lancre:

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[Granny]   "[...] A kingdom is made up of all sorts of things. Ideas. Loyalties. Memories. It all sort of exists together. And then all these things create some kind of life. Not a body kind of life, more like a living idea. Made up of everything that's alive and what they're thinking. And what the people before them thought."

And maybe like Winterfell, Lancre lost its ruler to a usurper, and 'woke up' as a consequence. Woke up angry. This is what Granny thinks it wants:

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"It doesn't care if people are good or bad. I don't think it could even tell, any more than you can tell if an ant is a good ant. But it expects the king to care for it."

That is where TP goes cute, and GRRM probably goes sci-fi with a symbiosis between the castle and its family (or monstrous parasitic hive mind or something). Sansa goes to to the Eyrie and feels alienated, rejected even - she's the right sort of person, but in the wrong place. Maybe the pain of this rejection makes it easier to reconnect with Winterfell.